F12 design and development

The F12 will feature a different rig then the windsurf as standard. The windsurfer option is just an alternative to allow others get to the water at a minimum of expense or effort. It is up to them if they decide to go that way.

No full length battens means significantly less sail are (about 30 % less) and a sail shape that is very hard to control. Both of these translates directly in to a slow craft with ill mannered behaviour like difficulties tacking. A boom less rig has many disadvantages which all outweight being

hit

in the head by piece a 750 gram alu tubing. Additionally the bottom sailshape of the sail is crap in anything other then pure upwind work and such a boat will pretty much as bad as the laser funboat.

Again this is the laser/hobie way of doing things and we want a boat that is significantly better. Otherwise everybody go out and buy Funboats/Bravo's

Wouter

Pat,

Is it you that has a personal problem with me ?

Are you practically saying that I do the F12 so I can get back at the H16 ? When you wrote :

Additionally I truly am the father of the F12 design.

The drawing that started all this is mine. The concept design that was depicted was also mine. Phill came with the idea of doing a small catamaran but the basic setup was my reply to his request. This started a few years ago.

Halve the design was already finished before discussion even started on this forum as Phill and I had been working on it over the last few years in between other projects like the F16's and F18's. Some prototyping of hulls had already begun, as Phill mentioned in one of his own posts.

So even if I stop right now, I 'll still be the father of this design together with Phill. There is no way around that.

Maybe you should also consider the fact that many aspects of the design have already been investigated by Phill and myself in the past. That is why I can dismiss a good portion of the suggestions; we already know there is no merit in them.

Why is it that you don't want to make use of these experiences gained, it is only because I happen to be Wouter.

By God it seems like that.

Now this is my last reply to you, I'll ingore you from now on as clearly you have nothing valuable to contribute.

Wouter

Over time I'm came across many boat building pages on the net and a good portion of designers and builders seem to suggest that normal ply can be used succesfully if small defects are not magnified by having the material loaded up to its limit.

Personally my take on things is that if the F12 hulls are truly easy to buid then it may well be worth the risk to just use normal ply and see how it holds up. If it does crack or something then it can be repaired relatively easily and then the hull can be glasses over.

Once a hull is glassed over the inferiour aspects of normal ply should really not be a major issue in my perception. But it will be best to check with Phill on this matter. Afterall he has 25 years os experience in building these things.

Wouter

think if you are going to invest 100 hours in building a boat, the cost of okoume is not much. The other thing to consider is that it is about 10% lighter then luan and 30% lighter then douglas fir or baltic birch.
I have built small boats out of okoume, marine rated douglas fir and other stuff out of luan. Luan is way inferior in quality. The faces are very thin, the core is thick and has voids, it does not like compound bends at all.

Do not cheap out on the plywood.

I was looking at the design and I think if you are covering it with 6 oz fiberglass on the outside you can use 4 mm okoume for the hulls no problem 3 mm might be pushing it.

A 5 piece stitch and glue hull 12 ft long with scarfs, and no daggerboard trunks and with full sized templates I would guess you are looking at around 40 hours per completed hull. Add another 20 per hull if you are super anal about fairing it and painting it with awlgrip or similar.
Build the rudders out of 2 pieces of 1/2" baltic birch. Make a design and have someone cnc the shape, then glue 2 halves together, run full lenght Uni carbon down the middle of it on each side then glass on one layer of 6 oz cloth and fair it.

If you get someone to make the cores for the rudders, it should cost ~ 150$ for the cnc cutting. Everything else can be built.

Just my thoughts.

P.S. do a web search in multihulls world about 10 years ago a german guy wrote an about making a 14 ft cat that weighed ~100 lbs to sail in indonesia on vacation. He shipped the plywood precut and built it in 2 days in indonesia and sailed it around the islands for a few weeks. He used a windsurfer mast.

Cheers,
Eric

We'll let the jury decide.

I have a problem with how you treat people that are offering advice based on their experiences.

I have sailed every regatta and fleet race for the last three years with a crew under the age of 12.
That is something in the area of 250 individual races.
I have things to offer to the big picture you can't even begin to understand. I have tried to offer constructive input.
Phil and others have acted in a professional manner when questions were asked. I have no problem with him or the project.

As for the word Hobie. We might as well be ringing the bell for Pavlov's dog.

If you look back through this post you threw the first stones.

Everybody !

Posters like Eric Anderson with good info PLEASE take the time to type out your comments in a Word document and send it too me. Then I can post it on my website for all to read and improve access to data for everybody.

In the last 24 hours we have gone to 337 posts from 278 ; that is 59 posts in just under 24 hours.

I can't archieve that much info in a proper manner. Everything needs to have a context, source and listing of assumptions in order to make this stuff understandable say 2 or 3 months down the road. Alot of context is currently provided by the structure of this threading but that WILL be lost over time.

for an example look here :

www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/formula_12/F12_Crew_weight_analysis_vs_1_10012007_Wouter_Hijink.doc

If we are to make use of all your contributions (which I really do want) then you have to structure you contributions and supply then to the project in a well developped and standardized manner.

Otherwise the chance are that your comments will be lost. This is a huge pile of work that somebody (as in ME) has to work through next to me own design work.

Wouter

The given set of rules are just to give you an idea of what is going on. I think there are still to undevellopped to even use for actually building prototype. I've identified a few more loop holes that need to be close. Also the cube-square analysis provided some insights that need to be dealed with. We may have to lengthen the hulls from 3.65 to 3.90 mtr. That 4th power scaling factor that is very important from a dive resistance point of view is limiting our sailarea-mastheight combo to a rather slow boat. Lengthening the hull from 3.65 to 3.90 mtr makes a significant difference as the 4th power is such a stronger relationship. I'll try to write this out in a word document and publish it when I find the time.

Wouter

Wouter, I probably missed it in all this, but what is your web site address?

Wouter, do you think it would facilitate your project if there is a separate forum for the Formula 12? Rick is willing to create a forum for it, if you would like.
Let us know.

I would be very thankful if contributions beyond simple

Hey what if ...

are worked out using this template.

www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/formula_12/F12_Crew_weight_analysis_vs_1_10012007_Wouter_Hijink.doc

I used this template to formulize the first entry into this open source design.

I deals with the expected body mass and body lengths (latter being closely related to age) to get a feel for at which F12 crew weight range we have to design this F12.

The advantage of such formalized setup is that if somebody comes along and wants everything explained to him again we can just give him the link.

If he disagrees then he can work out a counter analysis and present that through the same channels. Then the two articles (viewpoints) can be maintained side by side and in time the better one will be incorporated into the design. This is the only way to keep this discussion somewhat under control.

Also Anybody having critique but not making any properly developped counter analyses can then be effectively

processed

and asked to stop wasting time of people who do actually research this stuff in a scientific manner.

I'm looking forward to your contributions.

And yes up till now it was easy, the hard work has just begun ! <img src=

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Wouter

P.s. when you read the article, take a look at the table and see how the beginning of singlehanded sailing starts just when the doublehanded sailing becomes sluggish. In effect small kids start out doublehanding the boat and when they get too old and big to do so they are ready to start single handing. These two regimes seem to link up nicely.

Wouter

Making a more accessible webpage is somewhere on my to do list but that listing has gotten pretty long lately. I didn't quite expect the response when I first place the F12 picture in this posting :

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho... ;Number=94107&page=&vc=1

In response to the questions asked by you Mary in the thread

The perfect world for beach cats?

Yes,

Additionally I want to get these two discussion threads of the main page as they are now pushing all other postings off the first page. I don't think that to be a good thing for www.catsailor.com

Is it possible that Rick copies the two F12 threads and the one which you started to this new forum ? I really don't want to loose these threads in the 65.000 other posting in the mean forum ?

Thanks alot for your help.

Wouter

The threads on the open forum cannot be transferred. But for your own use all you have to do is put them in your

Favorite Topics,

and you will have them saved forever and can access them easily. If you want to transfer some of your posts over to threads in the new forum, you would have to do that manually, with copy and paste.

As a gesture of good will I have reviewed all of your posts in the F12 threads and answered them again.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~whijink/formula_12/Pat.doc

I'm quite intrigued as to what things you can offer that defy my understanding. Your comment made me wonder if I had missed something, but I really haven't found anything in your posts that would come close to that. This is nothing personal but just a honest appreciation of the facts at hand.

So surprise me ! Or rather, surprise us all.

Wouter

Nice one! I'd like to build a small fleet. My kids will love this…<img src=

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Wouter
Good will should be there from the begining.
I could offer that there are many many people out there that would be very valuable to this effort that will have nothing to do with based on how you act.
I base this statement on the variuos PM's, emails, phone calls and face to face meetings I've had with people over the last week.

When your truly good at anything, you don't have to tell anyone.
This isn't to say you don't have ability. What you do have will not be appreciated much until you learn to handle yourself in a professional manner.

I will stay out of this now.

Humpf, I haven't figured out how to link to a specific post <img src=

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Right,

Well, nobody is stopping

your network

from succesfully inplementing a rival (youth) project totally unrelated to Wouter Hijink.

I'm sure there are other ways of getting things done then the Wouter method, but I can't transform myself into somebody other then Wouter. In turn your guys won't have anything to do with F12 and this will circle back onto itself for ever.

Effectively making this a

Could have, Would have, Should have

discussion.

In my experience these are not very helpful in getting things done.

As such your idea to end it is a good one.

Thanks for the parental advice about learning to behave myself in a professional manner.

Wouter

I wouldn't work for someone (i.e. for money) that treated people the way that you have so I have very little interest in volunteering for such abuse. So no, sorry, I'm not interested in assisting at this point.

I think this thread needs moving to the F12 forum !

Wouter…why so caustic? I thought you were the right man to head this thing but obviously I was wrong. Your talent and experience with the F16 has been overshadowed by your inability to communicate in a civil manner.

Contrary to your belief… you are not the first person to design or propose to build a 12 foot catamaran. When you go into the mine, mine, mine rant you sound like Al Gore when he was running around telling everyone he invented the internet. It’s ludicrous.

You have a lot to offer on the positive side of things, why do you feel the need to pick a fight with everyone you come into contact with? Why are you always so pissed off at the world?

Regards,
Bob

Well, maybe I'm just not such a nice guy ?

Over a beer and a bowl of peanuts I'm probably alright.

But when working to get results ... ?

To be honest, I don't know how else to get results.

Well, maybe it is wise to turn this whole thing around.

I propose that the group of persons having problems with me personally will find a new F12 project manager and the soon as he (or she) presents himself I will step aside and completely leave the project.

The new manager can then proceed to teach me and everybody else how to get results in a nice and civilized manner.

I'm really serious about it.

Lets give this a go.

Wouter

Why not let's put away the ego and get to work. ..... <img src=

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Wouter,

While I don’t often participate in the discussions on CatSailor, I am an avid daily reader. I must tell you that I admire your drive, creativeness and passion for catamaran sailing. I enjoy reading your technical comments because they seem to me well thought out.

I also admire the way you have taken the initiative of this F12 project, because I know how difficult it is to lead a project. I started a business against great odds and against the advice of many nay-sayers, and I recall all the times that I had to stick to my vision and rely on my drive to get the job done. Even though I had many people working for me, I often found myself working long hours in isolation.

While initially this served me well, my business was only a marginal success, which frustrated me greatly. I couldn’t understand why so employees stood on the sidelines taking potshots with crazy ideas and didn’t get with the program to make the company suceed. Often I found their advice ill-informed, frustrating, and distracting and I began to question their motives. However, a close friend and confidant suggested to me that my actions discouraged my staff from participating and that ultimately my company would fail due to my actions (or in-action).

So, against my instincts, I started to listen and encourage dialogue. Often I had to fight back the temptation to lash out at ridiculous notions to keep the ideas coming. However, as the President, I got to choose to implement what made sense and what didn’t. When I held back my harsh criticism on the bad ideas and went out of my way to recognize and implement the good ones, I quickly found out that I was able to accomplish far more with the help of many than I ever could alone. Not surprising my business grew very quickly and profitably.

I don't know if there is a corollary here between my business and your F12 project, but my sense is that most people admire your work and want the project to succeed, and genuinely want to help, but are frustrated and concerned that your actions may impede the success of the F12 program.

While I wish I could provide the technical and logistical help you seek, I hope that sharing my personal experience will help your project succeed. Perhaps resisting the temptation to criticize may in the end get you the help that you’re looking for.

Good luck – I hope to be able to build an F12 for my 10 year old daughter next fall!

Willem Nieuwkerk

That was nicely put ! And even though we keep out heads down most of the time, I think that the majority of us feel the same way. Well done to everyone working on this project.

Now this is an excellent post.

Now this is exactly what it is.

With the possible exception that I do understand that this indeed happens and that I really don't really question their motives. But I also found that that really doesn't matter much because they still make ....

Maybe I even find that the most frustrating of all.

Also I wish people in general realized that there is a whole lot of work involved. And that after posting an good idea is takes many many many hours to design the idea into something that actually works. I found it frustrating to see the initial poster taking more credit for the end result then the guys who put all the hard work in. Smart idea's are very good but also only 5 % of the total project. Hence the

father F12

spin-off.

That is the problem of this situation with the F12 as seen from my viewpoint.

How to solve this ?

Your suggestions are pretty much the only available route aside from just developping this F12 with people who take the good with the bad and can work with me and hate me at the same time.

I think that I grew cynical over time with other projects. Not a good character feature, I admit, but also a really hard one to beat. Now I can do this F12 succesfully as project manager, but as it is a demanding and tedious job to be done in the little hours of the night after a tiring days work for no extra pay. So I fear I won't be really able to rise much to the desired level, that would take more energy then I'm able to give at this time.

Therefor again, I'm fully prepared to be replaced as project manager. I mean this very seriously.

I really won't hold it against anyone if they support the new guy. Hell, I really would love to sit back myself and make all kinds of (possibly ill-informed, frustrating, and distracting) suggestions to be worked out by other people and then still claim that my contributions were key developments. <img src=

alt=

/> (joke!)

If nobody does step up to the plate then maybe we all should just consider the words :

You go to war with the army that you have, not with the one you want

As in having an F12 but learning to forgive Wouter for being a ****, or not having an F12 at all.

Wouter

Well, if it would help you, we could eliminate this forum, I suppose, so you would be able to work in peace and solitude without outside influences and aggravations. But Rick won't have time to do that until next week when Tradewinds is out of the way. Let us know what you would like to do.

Wouter and all,

You Wouter, remind me of my father. He is very intelligent and has an inventive nature. Never spent a dime on anything he could do himself, even if it took him all day to do so, taking extensive research and building of jigs and tools to complete.

He also never understood why everyone else did not see things as he did. And this truly bothered him. His analytical mind could not fathom another human not processing things as he did. My nature is creative and I used to annoy him to no end by asking questions. ALWAYS, his immediate reponse was one of chastisment, followed by an answer. I've experienced embarassing public situations as a result of this (for him as well as me) and after the fact would come apologies, if necessary. If a deep conviction of his was present no apologies where offered. Notice a similarity here? (BTW, early in my marraige my wife thought I should go to counseling because I was surely damaged by my father's behavior!)

Human nature. We're ALL different, but some tendancies are similar. I work in a business that is dominated by Type A driver personalities. Meetings often border on hilarity while

opinion/edict

are expressed. All us Type C's nod in agreement and go then off to get things done. It takes all the personality types to make things work.

I grew up in and live in the current scenario. I know if I'm patient good things will come and no real harm is meant. It's just the delivery method.

Another two cents worth <img src=

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And Mary, thank you.

You remind me of my Mother.

Now if you children can't behave and get along I'll just have your Father take that and put it away for good! <img src=

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" />

Lets keep the forum.

I'm just proposing somebody else taking the reigns of this project then myself.

The F12 project will continue, I'm sure.

If nobody steps up to the plate then things will quiet down anyway and Phill and I will just get on with designing it.

Besides, I feel this forum could then in that case by used to great benefit to have the potential owners influence the design before it is finalized.

Wouter

You know, I've read and re-read this thread (and the other two related threads). I've considered different ways of taking some of the comments and outright statements that have been made against (and in favour of) various contributors. There seems to be very little goodwill being shown (in any camp). I've lost all appetite for this project in the present circumstances. Regretfully, I'll now work out something on my own that could possibly be considered a F12. I hope you all have fun bickering among yourselves.

Hey Wouter and Co, the best thing you guys can do is publish a F12 box rule based on the F16 project ( which I suspect is already complete but not published ) and then get on with your own projects, make a bit of money out of selling plans and set up your own website to support those plans.

Unfortunately there are do'ers and talk'ers in the world, the do'ers just seem to get on with things, the talkers seem to just well talk about it. <img src=

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