Hey, logged on to the computer for the first time in a while. After reading the entire thread, Melissa and I are excited by the potential of this project. I don’t blame Wouter for being pissed off by all the nay saying. Wouter, we have no clue what you have done and what is not done. If we don’t have the details, we can not help, so do not ask us to.
I vote for Wouter to continue the project because he is the most capable person to get the job done right.
The only way I see this thing failing is if the box rule is poor. We need the initial design to prove the rule allows for high performance and a well balanced boat. Once the box rule is in effect, you can design your own boat or use Wouter and Phil’s design.
Matt
Hey, not bad...if we take Flatlander18's original topic starter in the general forum related to youth sailing as the inception point, then it only took 10 days for this whole small/cheap/F12 community boat development thing to begin, grow, diverge, and finally implode.
Good thing it's a Friday...now everybody go have a beer.
Wouter I admire your tenacity and “can do spirit”… working towards a goal with laser focus. I agree with you that to get a job done there has to be direct, concise communication of ideas.
What I have observed is that often a proposal is made… or questioned… and the one making the comment is personally attacked. I firmly believe there are some that “bait you in” just trying to get a vicious response, but most are not…they just have ideas or questions they would like to have considered… Things that they may have personally experienced that can help keep a project on track or avoid unnecessary set backs. Just as you bring to the table a degree of experience and expertise, so do they. Just like you… they want to be heard and seriously considered.
We all have different life experiences, that when combined, can give us the ability to do things as a group that could never be accomplished on our own. Think about it…collectively the sailors on this forum might represent hundreds of years of on the water experience… what a terrible asset to waste.
The project manager, along with his team, must distill this knowledge into a workable reality, there is not a lot of time for hand holding and touchy feely pleasantries…but one can be brief and to the point as to maximize effectiveness, without personal insults. Anytime the discussion moves towards a personal attack it moves away from the goal that both parties claim they are there to accomplish.
As a leader, you have to stay above the fray, you can’t afford to get in a mud wrestling match with everyone that tries to antagonize you…work on developing the ability to discern the difference between those that are genuinely trying to make a contribution, from those that are just stirring the pot. Ignore the pot stirrers and they will eventually loose interest and go away, keep engaging them and they will continue to haunt you.
As to writing off questions that have already been addressed…remember that there is rarely one perfect solution for a problem…the person that is “blown off” might just have a solution that comes form an entirely different field that you have no knowledge of.
I sincerely offer these suggestions for your consideration.
Best Regards,
Bob
Don't forget guys and girls Wouters natural language is in Dutch and not English, some of the gripes you Americans have ( and it is largely from those over the pond ) is just largely because of the literal language translation Wouter is using. For those of us used to people translating to English, this sort of thing is pretty normal.
And also remember written word, via internet or email, is the poorest form of modern communication. It allows no voice inflection, ever notice how you can tell the person on the other end of the telephone is smiling? It allows no facial expression, body posture, or gestures to help you translate the message.
Without all this physical stimuli, it allows your mind to wander, to input your perception of things such as tone of voice, read between the lines and derive and create percepted meanings.
Emoticons give some help in this regard, but we forget to use them and even with them a quickly typed message can never equal telephone or eye to eye conversation. Don't we think something like ten times faster than we can speak?
Are you guys trying to make excuses for Wouter or insult him? It certainly is not clear from the last two posts, which apparently were made by English-speaking people. <img src=
alt=
/>
The dummy spitting is more interesting then the F12, Wouter has been annoying most of the forum users for years, just ignore him.
Remember Samevans?
Darryn
Remember Samevans?
Darryn
Sam Evans was one person, and yes Wouter has probably annoyed everyone on the forum at some time. BUT, Wouter has spent many hours helping regular members and newcomers to the forum over the years.
See the heading of this thread: F12 design and development
Does anyone remember the Dart 12 ? Laser brought it out 15? or more years ago. They demonstrated it at Dart 18 events and toured the UK with it trying to encourage junior sailors. I'm not sure why it didn't work - it may have been too expensive. I wondered if 12 ft was long enough, if it had enough buoyancy, but I think that the modern design of John Alani's and Wouter's hull has a lot more buoyancy than the old slim hulls of the Dart 12. My kids, at 29 and 27, are way past this cat, but I would love to see a Formula that sailors (fathers) around the world could build to (or buy) and so, start their kids Cat Sailing.
If we all stay cool, it can be done.
Dermot,
I think the answer is to come up with a super simple design to build. This would also be super cheap to build.
The quicker and easier and cheaper it can be built the more likely it will work to bring people/children into the sport.
I think quick, easy and cheap much more important than performance for the first timers.
Now if they are silly enough to come back to build another they will have some building confidence and sailing experience and hopefully both were pleasant on the first attempt and will want something much more refined.
Now most of us have had pleanty of experience with numerous boat designs and have developed a more refined taste that would not be satisfied with what a first timer would want.
To make something like this happen I think you need to get people together to do this as a social activity so they can be built in groups/numbers. Sailing clubs may be a fertile ground/venue. The clubs could run some adds and manage the building projects.
You could pitch it
dads and mums come and learn some boat building and provide a thrill machine for your young children
.
Regards,
Phill
Sam Evans was one person, and yes Wouter has probably annoyed everyone on the forum at some time. BUT, Wouter has spent many hours helping regular members and newcomers to the forum over the years.
The frequency of Wouters posts and repetitive nature of the content is more advertising for F16 then facts about Catsailing that can help newcomers to our sport.
I mentioned samevans as he posted the same stuff about wouter years ago that users are complaining about now.
Enjoy your little boat guys, is anyone building yet?
Darryn
Dermot,
Can je dig up some info or pics on the Dart 12 ?
Would love to know more about it.
Especially the basic specs and anything that would give a brief history of the class or comment on how this boat sailed.
Wouter
<img src=
alt=
/> Darn, I was hoping to keep that a secret <img src=
alt=
/>
I'll give you guys a hint. With a boat this small, the right specs are absolutely critical.
Wouter
Can je dig up some info or pics on the Dart 12 ?
Would love to know more about it.
Especially the basic specs and anything that would give a brief history of the class or comment on how this boat sailed.
Wouter
I had a look online yesterday and this is all I could find: http:/
I will look through some old files tomorrow and see what I can find. I think that it looked like a small Dart 18 and 15.
Wouter I got your PM. I replied, but your box is full. Anyway, I will check out the Dart 12 and see what I can find.
I think the answer is to come up with a super simple design to build. This would also be super cheap to build.
The quicker and easier and cheaper it can be built the more likely it will work to bring people/children into the sport.
I think quick, easy and cheap much more important than performance for the first timers.
Now if they are silly enough to come back to build another they will have some building confidence and sailing experience and hopefully both were pleasant on the first attempt and will want something much more refined.
Now most of us have had pleanty of experience with numerous boat designs and have developed a more refined taste that would not be satisfied with what a first timer would want.
To make something like this happen I think you need to get people together to do this as a social activity so they can be built in groups/numbers. Sailing clubs may be a fertile ground/venue. The clubs could run some adds and manage the building projects.
You could pitch it
dads and mums come and learn some boat building and provide a thrill machine for your young children
.
Regards,
Phill
Phill,
I agree completely. Maybe when the grandchildren come along, you guys will have sorted the design out and I will have time to get building !
Dermot,
I'm taking about something simpler than the shapes Wouter and John have drawn.
A
Super Simple
12 ft cat could be drawn up with building instructions in a couple of days and a couple of weekends to build plus painting if thought out carefully.
So I suppose you're right, it could be done by the time the grand kids come along.
The best thing would be if a big company with lots of advertising money supported it.That may be a bit further down the track imagine 2000 little cats spread around the globe advertising CATSAILOR or SUBWAY!!!!!
If only I owned a massive international company.
But I might be just dreaming?
Unregistered, please e-mail me: mary at catsailor.com
Phil,
Do you have a shape in mind, if so are you willing to share it with the forum?
Gareth
Phill is definately the man to talk to in the way of hulls and building them.
My hull plan is known, but more interesting is the fact that I spend by far more time designing the other parts. Here there are a few tricky issues that needs to be solved.
I must admit that I wasn't up to designing the whole 12 ft cat in only a couple of days. At least not one that would succeed on the crucial points.
Wouter
You know, this F12 did get my juices going in such a way that I started looking at something like this. I figured that for the extremely low cost of these craft a company could just buy 10 or 20 of them and do a major promo stunt with it. I dare not publically express the cost listing I have now as I just can't believe it myself but it is truely low.
But the boat have to look cool and exiting other a company like RedBull will not consider it and this company really does stunts like that.
And I figured one stage more. What if this takes off. How many would fit in a seacontainer ? Must we try to design the rules in such a way that it will be really inexpensive to ship them internationally. Say to one of the Caribian islands.
I now got the package down to 36 per 40 foot container with the F12's all packed in their standardized (card board) boxes. This can well be the boxes in which they were delivered to the customer initially. I'm getting close to putting 48 boats in. Result : Shipping your boat to an event to anywhere in the world would be between 200-300 Euro's if the container is stacked full.
Another reason for this effort is so that mass producing these boats in say Asia is viable.
Wouter
Gareth,
I'm both encouraged and discouraged by what has been going on in these discussions. So much enthusiasm yet still so much bickering.
I have been trying to work out why this is so. I think apart from the personal differences hear I think we may have two completeley different objectives.
On one hand there is a group that just want to get young people into the sport. Mostly people that you would not hook otherwise.
Then there is the group that are in the sport and want to get the best they can to introduce their own offspring to the sport or give the young ones they know in the sport the next step in performance or just design the best performer given the anticipated rules.
So in answer to your question I have two hull shapes in mind.
One will perform well but is essentially a fun boat that can be built in a very short period of time at very little cost.
The second is a more refined craft and given that I still have a desire to maintain simplicity and even with the physical limitations in this size it is a race boat. The race boat is for experienced kids and light weight adults.
The first shape is aimed at bringing people into the sport and if push comes to shouve could be built with a knife, screw driver, saw, plane, hammer and tape measure.
The magic in this is not in the refined hull shape but the method of construction, time involved and cost.
I think this boat will still give the newcomers what they need to get hooked.
So rather than share this with the forum and blow more hot air. I will try to clear some time in a few weeks and build it. Documenting both the time and cost. I need to build an F18 plug but straight after that I'll get it done.
It's time we saw something we can touch.
Regards,
Phill
Then there is the group that are in the sport and want to get the best they can to introduce their own offspring to the sport or give the young ones they know in the sport the next step in performance or just design the best performer given the anticipated rules.
I agree with this assesment. And as such I think the Formula setup of the class is key. If it were an OD then we would have to compremise between these two conflicting setups.
In a formula structure we can see both groups contribute to the class as a whole and more importantly the quick and dirty setup only has to different from the full force setup in the hulls. This means that while youngster is sailing and after the parent has evaluating the childs commitment to sailing is as sufficiently they can upgrade the boat with new and more performant hulls while just planting the rig and rudders over. This will save a bundle. I envision to old quicky and dirty platform to be moved on to another parent/child and thus grow the class by small steps at the time.
Wouter
Wouter,
There is nothing dirty about it.
It is just simpler and with simlicity comes compomise.
The simpler sollution in this case just has different advantages. Advantages that I think will be more inclined to draw people into the sport.
In drawing them into the sport it is more oriented towards fun than performance. When their prefernces shift towards performance you can then look at the more involved sollution that will give that added performance.
I'm taking about a sollutiom more focused on ease in the construction phase and fun on the water.
The other sollution is more about refined performance.
I agree that the formula concept will embrace both if the formula is well written.
Regards,
Phill
I understand and I was with that scheme from the beginning.
Forgive me about the
Dirty
word. <img src=
alt=
/>
True.
But I would like to underscore that when designing the basic underlying structure of the F12 we should be fully focussed on maximizing performance given the strict limits (simplicity/cheap). Because it is far easier to make a fast design more
fun
then making a
fun
design faster.
Wouter
Are you guys trying to make excuses for Wouter or insult him? It certainly is not clear from the last two posts, which apparently were made by English-speaking people.
Perhaps Mary we should have a translation from Queens English to American English <img src=
alt=
/>
No resin or glue?
Gareth
The mono 420’s have centerboards, the Optimist and Lasers have dagerboards, all popular with youth sailing teams should they also be considered for the F 12?
Regards,
Bob
Well a laser daggerboard is probably expensive. We will need 2 custom boards, so it is not in line lowest cost approach.
For now I want to try doing without daggerboards or centreboards but if we need them then they are easily added to the hull. Sadly, as Matt says, against added costs and complexity. As we'll have two on the F12, will be much more hit by these then a monohull.
Wouter