I'm new to this, been following the designs progress. From my limited knowledge I know that what you are suggesting is the exact recepy for a one design class. I don't think the designers will ever accept that the
other one
is better for several reasons, but mainly because the
formula
stands for a more freedom of movement then the one design. BUt I might be wrong....
You might contact Hans Geisler, designer of the GCat family. He has created an incredibly fast deep V hull concept. He is still actively designing and sailing new boat models but I do not think he has gone smaller than 5.0 meters. He might offer great insight toward a tiny boardless design capable of good speed and pointing while perhaps home-buildable. He's a really creative and helpful guy. You can write him at
morningstarfishermen(at)earthlink.net
There is a lot more than competition on my mind. In the south part of Finland there is an archipelago with at least 12.000 islands were it’s possible to beach with a small cat, put up a tent and spend the night. The waters are sheltered but shallow, so for me no fixed part sticking out under the hull, it is a labours way to find stones.
We also travel a lot by ferries, so the whole thing should go on top of a small car. Pulling something behind is rising the price of the ferry ticket about ten times.
There are still very few cats here, so I really would like to get the kids out on the water…
You're gonna send kids out in surf?
ok....we gotta stop all this personal agenda stuff if we are to achieve anything. At this rate we will still be discussing who wants what 100 years from now.
Seeker had a pretty good suggestion in that we set a length and weight and let them evolve on a regional basis.
My personal belief is that if we go down the OD route we will stall the whole thing due to the fact there are too many opinions right here now, let alone all the future people we are trying to attract.
A good example is A-Class, simple rules are delivering more innovation and development than any other class (mono or multi) that I know of on an annual basis
Whats so wrong with 4 rules, length, beam, weight and a sail area?
moreover, isn't it better to have a bunch of national or even regional designers promoting the class and involving all the people they can muster than a small association group trying to educate the masses ?
Ultimately success will get down to momentum....and that involves passionate people...narrow the parameters and your guaranteed to narrow the passion due mostly to self interest.
RG
Moths, C-class, F18 (spinnaker, selftackers)
Lets just see the A-cats for what they really are ; excellent lightweight singlehander racers that are both very expensive, have a continiously changing design and lay claim to a status that is larger then they really are.
It is also a common mistconception that the A-cat class rules are only length, width, beam and sail area. The only class that still has a simple setup like that are the C-class boats. For example the A-cats rules also rule on ready to sail weight and the forbid the use of any lifting foils. They also break their high-tech masts when they pitchpole in any decent wind.
Surprisingly enough cheaper boats like the F18 are actually outperforming the A's on the race course. To make the picture complete a 11.500 Euro F16 (without a spinnaker or jib setup) is only 5% slower then the newest 18.500 Euro A-cat. That is a whole lot of money (60% more) for a more fragile boat that is only 5% faster around the race course (3 min per hour).
In summery the A-cat is everything that a youth catamaran should not be. Expensive, relatively fragile, outdating older boats relatively quickly and is hardly seriously faster.
I like the A's for what they are but they are simple not a good example of what to do with the F12 youth catamaran. Neither are the F16 or F18 catamarans for that matter.
Wouter
Come on Wouter the A class is back to basics, at a beginner level you can build a fast boat, not world class but really cheap the sails arent dear. With clear decks, low working load, minimum sheets to change its light and super responsive, giving instant feedback on wether youve changed the right thing. Its ideal as a scaled down F12. My 7 year old lad was driving my A class in light wind last weekend, he was tacking, jibing mucking around, we deliberately capsised it and righted it for fun. As for colabsable poles, I reckon they should be an allowable option but not a requirement.
regards
I agree we should keep the rules open and simple. No rules that restrict one type of design, So I am all for length, beam, weight and sail area only.
The main object here is to get as many youngsters sailing cats as possible. Maybe a one design boat might emerge from this in the future but for the time being I want to see what everyone has to offer. So nothing to restrict creativity at this stage please.
Gareth
Gato,
That sounds like a great way to introduce kids to sailing. When they race there is only one winner. Use the boats to go camping and everyone one is a winner. They should love it and associate those memories with the sport for life.
Great idea.
There is no doubt you could build a simple deep V cat quicker than many other types. Just bear in mind that the deep V is not as good at carrying weight if you are moving camping gear on them.
We had deep V 12 ft Surfcats at our club with spade rudders that did not go down below the keel. The kids could sail them in water they could walk in.
However to make the design work the tramp was on a square tube frame and set well above the deck so it would still sail when the hulls were almost submerged. So if you are going for a deep V just be sure it will carry the weight you want to put on it. As you would know a round bilge hull or chined hull will carry weight better and the shallow draft can be achieved with skegs if C/Bs are out.
Which brings us back to building time. They can take a bit more to build although not that much more because you don't have to put much inside them which always seems to be where most of the time goes.
Good luck sounds like a great project.
Regards,
Phill
RG and Gareth,
Weight and length makes good sense but not so sure about beam and sail area.
I just think these would be better decided locally to get what is both safe and
exciting and this may vary depending on the conditions of the local.
My concern about setting a max sail area is people will always go for the
max and it may not be appropriate for that location. I tend to wonder if
this could be agreed locally.
The way I see it is that we don't even have boats on the water yet so
the fewer restrictions the better. Once there are a few boats sailng we
will be in a better position to decide if and what type of restrictions
are required.
Having said all this I'm not that hung up on all this and if everyone
else agrees to the 4 restrictions I'll go along.
Regards,
Phill
If everybody else agrees on only these four limits then I'm out of the project.
Mostly because I think it is going to fail that way and I'm not wasting my time on that. Sorry.
Actually this whole proces does remind me of that time 8 months ago, exactly the same discussions. I made room for somebody else to create this
wide open class
and nobody stepped up. The end result the project fall flat on its face. I revived it, as I have done several times by now, and we just fall in the same trap again.
I hope it fairs alot better this time if the rest decides to keep the rules maximally open. First point on the agenda is to find a new project leader, I'll be watching from the sidelines. If it falls down again then I'm going to step one last time and decided things arbitrarily. Then it will be an OD class along the lines I presented earlier.
So everybody, consider this your last shot to make something of the F12 that you feel is right. I will step aside and allow you all to make your best swing at it.
I will of course keep presenting updates on my design on this forum, there maybe something there worth stealing.
Wouter
Call me when you are serious about doing something like that. For years now I've been saying to friend that I would like to wander about the Swedisch or Finnish Archipelo on a sail boat.
Wouter
I have been serious on that for a while. It's a little bit cold right now, but lets say from May on you name the date.
Wow, thanks, I hope that thought that offer through because I may very well take you up on it.
For may 2008 I'm organising a little wandering-about trip on sail boats here in the Netherlands with 20 people already listed, so I don't expect that I can get away from my normal life during the spring time, but after that ...
I will also send you a private mail concerning this.
Wouter
Wouter, please take this as a friendly observation….
“If everybody else agrees on only these four limits then I'm out of the project.”
That sounds awful lot like “If I can’t make the rules, I am going to take my ball and go home”.
Let the project go forward with just length and weight limits. If your design and approach is superior it will prevail.
While you undoubtedly have the greatest presence here on the forum (7000+ posts), it is obvious that the wheels have been turning behind the scenes on a number of fronts. To be honest, you would have to admit this recent resurgence of interest in the F-12 has a lot to do with RG’s ability to expressed his (and others interested parties) design ideas through high quality 3D Computer Modeling. As they say a picture is worth a thousand words. You can write a text book worth of detailed description on the F-12 and not motivate a single person to act…but put a life like rendering in front of them and the ideas take on new life.
No one is trying to limit your design options, why do you feel the need to limit theirs?
If I remember correctly, you have, on more than one occasion, stated that you had neither the time nor the financial resources to pursue the construction of a proto type based on your ideas any time in the near future…that your time was consumed at work and other things you were involved in…no one faults you for that…Now there seems to be at least two other designers that do have the time and resources to proto type. Work with them, don’t them tie up with rules that may very well put some of the most creative options out of their reach. So you don’t agree with everything that is being proposed… if they are willing to put up their time and money to invest in this promising idea, why would anyone who truly wants the concept to succeed put barriers in their way?
It sounds like the cow that laid in the hay. It didn’t want to eat the hay…but it wouldn’t let any of the other cows to eat it either”
Don’t lay in the hay…LOL…
Best regards,
Bob
Wouter, I seriously hope you don't walk away, and no matter what you end up doing, I'm still going to use your mast and brace ideas as one of the options on what I produce cause they are
Good
ideas.
RG
Bring your bat and ball back Wouter, behind the scenes things are happening they might not be exactly your boats being built but it may have your ideas. We need every kid out there on a cat and its going to take all shapes and sizes of cats to get them out of dinghys. Advanced heavy kids used to a dinghy with kite need exciting good looking cats that will tip if they get it wrong ( thats the excitement and fear ). New to sailing kids need a stable reassuring platform so the kid and theyre parents dont have too much excitement. Its just my opinion but the time to get super fussy and level the playing field is at F14 etc at the moment we will have 7 yr olds racing 14yr olds they just wanna have fun.
I see this project as serious endeavour and that means achieving results. That also means that sometimes harsh decisions have to be made. This is nothing personal against anyone, just being realistic.
I can honestly say that I'm not the person to pull this project if it is decided by the group that that only 2 to 4 general rules will be layed down for the class. I have indeed no clear idea of how to make that work and as a result I won't be the right guy for the job. And indeed I gladly step aside to allow somebody else who can make this work take the lead.
So indeed this is not a “If I can’t make the rules, I am going to take my ball and go home” as I'm only vacating the team leader role and leaving the ball (and bat) on the court so another guy can take a shot at making it work.
Actually, I'm setting you all free.
The only thing one of you needs to do now is show us all how to swing that ball out of the court.
Wouter
I was so taken by the idea of sailing the archipelo that I want off on a tangent with respect to the F12 design. I used the same basic F12 platform (Deep V-ed hull) and the bottom section of the mast and its supports, as that is both simple, robust and cheap, and just changed the rig to a gaff or lugger sail.
To my surprise the specs work out really well. There is hardly any difference between these extremely simple and cheap sails and the fully battened class 5 sails. Pressure points, sail area's are all as good as the same. Don't even need to modify the bottom section of the mast at all. Just have to make a small insert that slides in its top and holds the halyard blocks. These rigs can then even be fully (de)rigged while on the water (safety), including lowering the mast itself. Put a peddle on board and you can peddle these craft very well too. I'm thinking about each skipper sitting on opposite hulls of the same craft with the second craft behind in tow. I already know that cats are very easy to peddle at decent speeds. Have done it a few times. Once wind picks up one sailor switches back to his own boat and both skippers raise their masts and sails and continue to trip under sail.
I know this will work very well while using a gaff or lugger rig as I've been doing the same on Valk sail boats for years. Just ask Phill Brander, I'm sure he'll still remember how we negociated the low bridges when sailing the Valks. You would sail right up to the bridge and drop the whole rig and mast in 30 seconds, then let the momentum push the boat through under the bridge and then on the other side you would push up the mast and sails in again 30 seconds and continue sailing.
Deck tent over the boom and voila you're camping. Could even do that on the water in a shelted bay when using a small anchor.
Of course we loose some performance with these gaff and lugger rigs but one a travel trip like this that is not much of a problem, I'm happy to sail at 9 knots instead of 11 knots upwind if that saves me a bundle of money and allowing me to make this trip through the archipelo ! Best of these sails is how easy and cheap they are and repaired.
WOW !
I'm still impressed at how easy my basic F12 was adjusted to the different requirements of an archipelo trip.
Gato, what a great idea to use a cat like the F12 for this. I'm sure if you start taking kids along that they will consider it a right adventure. Makes me feel as exited as a kid as well.
Wouter
Gato, I guess you are referring to the islands between Turku and Aland.
Here some maps if anybody is interested to find out what we're talking about :
http:/
Indeed there are 1000's of them. You can see that more clearly using Google map and then zooming out and zooming in on southern Finland :
http:/
Wouter
I'll give it a week to someone to step forward.
If nobody does then I'll decide to hold a design competition and we'll see then what we can all come up with. I hope to interest RG and others like Grob to produce equally classy 3-D pics and drag simulations of all proposed designs so that all are equal in presentation. We can then move to have the
Battle Royale
and hopefully find the best design out there with which we will run from then onwards.
Would something like that interest the other designers ?
Wouter
Alternatively everyone who is working on a design could get it prototyped. Take some pics of it sailing and come back with a report.
I intend to start my prototype on January 1st even if my other projects are not wound up and will complete it within 8 weeks.
The building process will be documented in detail and both material costs and hours will be logged.
As the craft will have two configurations I will prepare a report on the difference in handling and feel between them.
It would be interesting to hear the plans of others.
I expect everyone will have a different timetable so as each design hits the water it could be given more than adequate exposure this way.
In the end the parents and the kids the boats are designed for will decide.
Regards,
Phill
It is a bit late, but would it be possible to have class rules similar to the 420, with a
club
version (with fixed one design measurements) and
normal
version, with developmet rules similar to the A or C Class rules?
Luiz, part of me likes this idea, will have to think on that.
As for my design, like Phill it will come in 2 versions and hopefully we'll be able to start building the first one in 3-4 weeks.
Right now I'm finishing the structure and will post a cutaway and see-through version here shortly so you can see how it will be built.
Cheers
RG
Wouter, I think that trying to judge any of the designs solely on the basis of computer predictions is not fair. First not everyone has the same quality of software and secondly anyone who says a computer simulation is 100% correct is full of it.
Its an aid, and nothing more.
The correct way to do this is to build and test, and even then it may take us all a few attempts to get everything correct or better yet acceptable to the majority.
Cheers
RG
Luiz,
Not sure if I understand but I see development at club level as each club will set its own rules and develop them in accordance with local requirements.
After boats come together a few times ideas will change in these groups as they swap ideas and experience learnt by the various groups as all the designs move towards converging.
Also we have to be careful to not put too much emphasis on competition. You want to hook all these kids for life. To do that they need all to feel like winners. Not one winner and a fleet of losers.
Building the community feeling will be the key to success.
Just they way I see it.
Regards,
Phill
RG,
I agree 100% which is why I think we should get some boats on the water and compare notes before setting down rules.
I have no problems with rules but hesitate to set them before we do some testing.
This is why I suggested length as the only rule until we have some real life experience.
BTW: - My design will fit well inside the rules mentioned so far except maybe length. I just don't think it wise to tie our hands prematurely.
Also after careful consideration I think the boats should be 12ft6inches or under. A bit more along the lines of what Wouter was saying. It may very well end up many of the rules end up coming back to what he had but I would not agree to it without real life testing.
Just the way I see it.
Regards,
Phill
club
version - fixed one design measurements and
normal
version - development rules similar to the A or C Class.
Luiz, part of me likes this idea, will have to think on that.
I'd like to know the rationale of boths parts. The idea, of course, is to please everyone here and also let the market decide what's best.
I believe you all know that the Optimist started with an extremely restricted box rule and nowadays is a strict one design with the goal to keep the price low by narrowing the limits where parents can play
who spends more on the kid's boat
. I guess we can start with more freedom if convergence to the wining concept(s) is previously agreed upon.
Really guys, the design isn't the bottleneck; you all know what you are doing and all boats will be wonderful. I worry about obtaining worldwide support from multihull fleets, clubs, organizations and manufacturers, especially the last ones.
I have no firm commitment yet, but I might be able to prototype my design in the coming year as well.
If I do then it will first be a deep V-ed hull with most likely an simplified rig. I too envision a more high tech version with a fully battened mainsail (as the class 5 landyacht) and possibly a more refined hull shape. The latter will still be a multichine hull however.
So I guess that approach will work for us (me and the other guy). The only part we are lacking in are fancy 3-D CAD drawings, so that would be a serious disadvantage to us if the
Battle Royale
comes down to that.
Wouter