Looks to me as though the concept is as dead as the proverbial Do Do bird.
Hi Berny
I keep checking here to see if theres any action, I don't think its because people outside aren't interested, theres just not drawing people in.
If there were a homebuild option along the lines of the F16 (Blade) or something like that, I'm sure people would sit up and pay attention.
Just my thoughts.
Regards
Berny
Don't pronounce it DOA yet...The concept is fine...it seems the cost to length ratio keeps it stalled.
Regards, Bob
Hey Guys,
DOA!! Not yet. I agree that the price is an issue, but there is also ZERO exposure. I was at the Spring Fever Regatta last week and the concept of the F14 was not even mentioned. That was because there were no F14s at the race.
The F16 and the Mystere 4.3 are awesome boats, but at ~230lbs they are heavy and not as easy to right if you sail alone must of the time.
It would be really nice to have an F14 (with a kite) platform at about 75kg (the weight of an A-cat) that you could race/sail single handed and when your wife, kid, or cute neighbor wants to sail to the nearest island, you can take them without worrying that the platform is going to suffer.
Anyway, that’s my dream.
Cheers, Waldo
Geez Waldo, that is exactly what the Alpha Omega F14 is, an all up sailing weight of 75kg, spinnaker, all carbon construction, raced one up but due to its extremely strong construction can be, and is used
off the beach
regularly as a pleasure sailer. It also kicks butt around the racecourse, competing head to head with A class, F16's, F18's, 5.8 Nacras, etc. Berny’s 430 is also right up there, but where are the buyers?
off the beach
regularly as a pleasure sailer. It also kicks butt around the racecourse, competing head to head with A class, F16's, F18's, 5.8 Nacras, etc. Berny’s 430 is also right up there, but where are the buyers?
The question IS can you get your boats to the US at a fair price. YES it is a fast boat (LOVED the video you sent), BUT can we afford it.
Doug
I don’t know just what people consider “a fair price” to be Doug. When we offer a cat onto the market that has an equitable performance to all the other larger cats mentioned above, and is unquestionably enormously rewarding and thrilling to sail, is controllable throughout the full range of sailing conditions, and is built from materials that give it a very long competitive life, even when abused as a knock about, off the beach fun sailer and it can also be moved around the beach easily solo by the lightest of sailers. All this for a price that is just above our building cost but still way lower in price than any of the larger cats that it compares to in performance, just what is a “fair price”?
When I look at the current prices for any production 14’ cat and compare their price and performance to ours, there is no comparison. For two to four thousand dollars (Aust’) less you get a cat that at best, is no better than 15 to 25 minutes in a hundred behind the F14 around any race course and has a life expectancy less than half of the Alpha’s. It’s a bit like saying, “I want a top of the range Mercedes with ALL the extras, BUT it has to be at the price of a little Hyundai Excel”. Ain’t no free lunches in this life Doug!
So what is the current price of your boat to the US? I agree it us a VERY nice boat. Just looking at a lot of options for new boat in 2008. Blade is one of them. Yes I know that depends on exchange rate. But at least a ballpark figure.
Doug
i think a while ago Darryl said $17000.00 aus $14000.00 US plus freight. with out the mast it would be easy to freight in a container.He has the current boats for sale so why not buy one of those already race proven and tuned.
found this on other forum ALL carbon fibre hulls, mast, beams, boom, spinnaker pole, tiller extension, etc, etc, F14 catamarans all up sailing weight 75kgs, standard with spinnaker, available now.
Race results show that these are the highest performing 14' cats in the world today, not by any
minor
amount, but so far out in front that you need
binoculars
to even see them ahead from on board any other 14' cat (and most 16' cats as well).
Better than 93% of the performance of an F18 at a considerable lesser price. Built to last and be fully competitive for many, many years.
Full price ready to sail/race ex workshop (minus only trailer)
$17,000.00
Or buy a set of hulls and /or other components separately and build up your own F14!
Phone Darryl on 08 8326 0877 for any further information or just to talk.
As a whole, boat manufactures might do well to establish list prices on the internet. You can put in a disclaimer about this price is of MM/DD/YYYY and is subject to change because of material price and other cost increases, but at least the buying public would have an idea if a given boat was in the ball park of their budget. Many outboard power boats do this…you can pick the model you want, the equipment you want, and price it out yourself. With instant access to your web site, you can update the price any time there is a change.
By not publishing prices a lot of energy on both sides of the equation is wasted... As a manufacture you don't want to spend your valuable time talking to people who are not even close to being in a position to afford your product...as a buyer one does not want to run a gauntlet to get a price on a product they think they may be interested in.
Regards,
Bob
It's dead!
My moulds will be going to the tip soon.
Bern
It's dead!
My moulds will be going to the tip soon.
I have to ask...what is a
tip
?
Regards,
Bob
Hi Bern
Do you have any pictures of the molds?...maybe an album with documenting the construction of the plug and female mold?
Did you ever price out shipping costs to the US?
Maybe there would be more interest if particulars were known...It is hard for someone to get a real feel for what you are offering when all there is to go by is a handful of still photos of the completed boat...sailing mainly in light conditions. Not to say you have to go out and do a full blown video like A&O but the more information the better.
Regards,
Bob
Bob, 'the tip' is the rubbish dump. They are taking up space in my garden/yard/driveway/shed and I'm sick of looking at them. If nobody is interested in F14 or my 430 then I may as well dump the moulds on the scrap heap.
I had all that info available, all the specs, I did news letters on construction and trials, published race results, had articles printed in Aus Sailing magazine, had my own web page, yada yada yada. The boat has been on the water since 1999!
I've even offered the use of the moulds for here FREE! No body took me up on the offer.
If I had one person, just one, really interested in knowing more about the boat
If any of you blokes are interested enough to get a group together and freight the moulds to the US, you can have them for the freight costs.
I seriously doubt anyone has the time, the money or the permission to do diddly about it.
Na, sadly, she's as dead as the DO Do.
Berny
If I remember rightly Berny, the offer was for the use of the molds, only if a professional fibreglasser that you were satisfied with was used. Otherwise I would have been only too happy to have borrowed the moulds. Regards Nick
Why didn't you just ask?
Hi Berny, There are a few reasons but the main ones being: That you had said what you wanted a glasser to your satisfaction, which wasn't unreasonable in my opinion but out of my price range given my second reason.
The logistics of getting the moulds over to WA and of course cost of doing so...especially if they got damaged. Finally, I'd be building a catamaran that wouldn't exactly be welcomed into the local catamaran fleet, which are Windrushes...especially if it was likely to whip their butts. Thanks for replying though, Nick
The logistics of getting the moulds over to WA and of course cost of doing so...especially if they got damaged. Finally, I'd be building a catamaran that wouldn't exactly be welcomed into the local catamaran fleet, which are Windrushes...especially if it was likely to whip their butts. Thanks for replying though, Nick
That's fair.
Too bad though <img src=
alt=
/>
If it ever actually gets to the take it to the tip stage let me know as it would be a real shame to see the molds wasted like that. Unfortunately you would still get the job of finding out how much it would be to freight them to WA as I'm sure they'd need to know weight, size etc. Having said that I have only ever built a ply catamaran from plans...does the 430 have any? Cheers Nick
Na, no plans sorry and the weight of the moulds is extreme.
Mate I apreciate your interest and concern but really the thing is dead.
Thanks all the same,
Bern.
berny it sounds like you deserve a pat on the back, by the looks of it great concept, great boat, fantastric effort you have put in to getting all togerther not your fault people are so crapathetic,
i have a few quistions though, why is the windrush going strong and yours (which i think a much better boat) isn't ?
how much faster (on a handicap system) is it than the windrush and how much slower than a blade or a TheMightyHobie18?
i still think there is a market just needs somone with serious money to through at the marketing, to get a class going then everyone would be as impressed with these little boats as i am, and i have not even seen one like the mini (car) in the 60's because all the cool models, royals, musicians, film stars had one
For of all why would anybody sink a large sum of money in a sailing catamaran class ? What would be the benefit to that person. He (or she) will be very unlikely to recover it and it won't give him much respect amonh his peers. But maybe even more importantly you will set your class up to failure, because what happens when such a sugar daddy gets bored and moves on. With the whole class depending on the efforts and money of one person, it will be very vunerable. I'm thinking US 18HT class and the
very rich guy with a promo plan
there. It went like crazy in 2002 and 2003 and then it ... collapsed within 6 months.
Wouldn't a more interesting question be on how to get the F14 class grow without hoping some miracle guy will come along and solve all the issues ?
Wouter
Valid points Wouter, But there is the one big exception IE NACRA was started in just such a way - by a
suger daddy
- and look at it now. Still those were VERY different times as far as sailing in general is concerned and for off the beach catamarans in particular.
Sorry, I haven'y been watching this or any other forum lately so I've missed these last posts.
Thanks for the 'pat on the back' ric, it is appreciated.
The 430, sailed sloop is about 10 minutes in a 100 faster than a foam super sloop Windy and about 15 minutes F14 rigged with me [a 66 y/old] at the helm weighing 85kgs. Probably a bit faster with an athletic gun sailer pulling the strings.
Wouter, there's only one thing stopping the advancement of F14 and thats the complete apathy, even resentment of the class by people like yourself who, though having considerable world wide influence, have insufficient vision for the future of otb catamaran racing to get behind a class which has the potential to bring new YOUNG blood into the sport. It's as simple as that!
Your question;
Why would anyone get behind the concept
speeks volumes.
Yeah ! That is it !
When you can't reach critical mass on your own (efforts) then there surely must be some outsider actively working against you.
What a BS. If you can't make it on your own then that is because you can't make it. Maybe some other people can but then the current F14 enthousiasts need to find these.
Wouter
Who on earth has ever reached 'critical mass' on their own??
And nobody said that you are working against F14, just that you totally ignor/disregerd it and are apathetic [get a dictionary] toward it. Many seem to resent the idea that a new class might upset the 'status quo' so they do nothing. Reality is cat racing is in the decline. It's even being considered as redundant as an olympic event. Some of that is because there's no new blood comming in at the bottom. Cat racing at present, is mostly an old blokes sport. Kids are seldom accomodated in the main, which is really too bad. Something needs to be done if it is to grow and another 16 footer with spinnaker isn't the answer. You're not going to see a bunch of 14 year olds racing an F16, F18, Tornado, A class,......
Tell me this wouter, who in the world has made any effort toward encouraging young sailors to take up cat racing since Hobie Alter?? Where's your plan for the future of the sport in this regard???
Not everyone does things purely for monitory gain Wouter. Lots of people see a bigger picture. Some even reason that a new class, which might introduce young sailors to the sport, may have lots of beneficial side effects for the sport, making more money among them. A new hight tech 14ftr might just encourage young ppl to take up cat racing. What if every cat club in the world owned a decent 14ftr and made it available to their new recruits, wouldn't that be terrible.
No respect among peers? What the heck is that??
Berny
Berny
There was quite a discussion about youth sailing earlier in the year revolving around F12 to some extent, in that time I found it wasn't feasable to have extra classes in our club. I have bought 2 x 420's for the kids to sail which has encouraged 3 other 420's to be purchased and will sail shortly. So now due to a small start we have a 5 kids boat fleet in a club where we only have 7 adult boats racing. Don't loose heart in the 14 berny because the kids generally find the speed of the 420 boring and want their own A. Our aim as a club is to tip them into Cats as soon as they are big enough the biggest problem really is the cost so keep those molds somewhere safe because our club now has 17 kids under 15 wanting a fast boat like the adults. Before sending them to the tip I would take them and store them for others and hopefully build a number for our club. I know you are going to hate this question but as a cheap entry into cats for a 420 owner, would the hulls perform reasonably with the mast and sails off the 420? until the kid was big enough and the adult financial enough to go to the full F14 rigging. regards Jeff
That's good news Jeff. Glad to see someone is looking to the future here in Oz anyway. Good stuff.
The club I race at is essentially a mono club and cats are tolerated only just. We have a fleet of about 14 cats sailing most Saturdays.
I did buy a small training cat which was stored in the club but only a couple of young blokes used it and then while I was away for a coupla seasons it disappeared.
I guess anything is possible, though I have to say that the 430 at 2.4m beam is a very stable platform and very well behaved. A small headsail would probably give a crew something to do other than help to hold the boat down if it was sailed two up. Spinnaker is optional.
I'm selling our house soon so the moulds will probably end up going to the tip when that happens.
Darryl is closer to you guys and I'm sure he'd be happy to help you get something going.
Good luck with it,
Bern