spinnaker on formula14

I think Wouter you are stuck in the catamaran mindset where due to the general lack of support for the cats in the sailing world (cats aren't nearly as popular as mono's), and the resultant small fleet outcomes, most cat regattas by necessity have to run combined class racing to get sufficient numbers to justify running a regatta at all. Not so in mono racing where there are sufficient numbers of one design boats to hold a regatta with only one class represented.
That's what I see as being the goal to reach with 14ft cats. It's already been done. There is NO future in trying to include 14ft cats at open cat regattas where even if you fitted five kites they would still be half an hour late back to the beach behind the Tornado's.

We are on our way here in Oz. It may just be that the rest of the world follows Australia in 14ft racing. It's happened before. We might be a small time backwater in the big bad swamp of life but that doesn't rule out the possibility of us 'going it alone'.

You're very negative Wouter and I understand why having spent time trying to organise cat racing, it can a be very disappointing and disillusioning experience but we shouldn't stop trying.
I think we have something unique here. Maybe it's just embryonic but the seed is planted and what may grow is anyone's guess.

I also see that any formula class would be better trying to include as many different classes in the formula is possible to try to create sufficient numbers to run a regatta in their own right. You'll never get any joy IMHO holding F16 regattas amongst F18's, Tornado's, F20 when it happens. They'll get hammered and all your people will want to move on the bigger boats thus depleting your fleets (bigger is better mentality), very unproductive.

Your scenario of getting back to the beach so long after the big boats finish that the beer is warm is just as relevant in F16 sailing against F18, 'T's' etc. Open your mind mate, look beyond the present and be optimistic that cat sailing may one day be as popular as mono sailing and F16 will have sufficient numbers to run F16 only regattas where they'll be the FIRST boats back to the beach. It's the only way forward for smaller boats IMHO or do you suggest we give up racing 14ftrs. Problem with that is there's no training class, no entry level boat to attract new blood no reasonably economical uncomplicated cats at all. Not good.
I just can't see how at a time when cat sailing is struggling, you see an improved outcome coming from making it more expensive, more complicated, more difficult to go sailing. Maybe it's just me.
Bern
P.S. I bet the Laser people are happy they didn't consult you before building that boat.

Hey come on a bit fellas! we all seem to be argueing over "personal points of view! most people know that you can't change someones opinion by simply arguing about it. Whether spinnakers do or don't become the standard on cats, whether or not "A" class go spinnaker, whether or not an F14 revitalises 14' cat sailing are all "achedemic points of view" at this point in time! time is the only factor that will show which road is travelled.
When you put catamaran and for that matter ALL sailing into context, you realise that for sailing to expand as a sport it depends more than anything on the current socio economic conditions!
sailing has never been a "main stream" sport, (compared to "football, baseball, rugby, basketball", etc etc, it is virtually "non existant" and as such it is very much influenced by the amount of disposable income that the "common man" has available after meeting his esentual living expenses.
It will never be "main stream" no matter how much we (sailors) would like it to be. In the past, the slightest downturn in a local economy has proved disaterous to the number of people sailing, much more so than any other part of society that I can think of, (sailing is like a barometer to the condition of an economy) it's only when "times are good" that sailing "takes off" and every time that that has happened over the last 50 years its directions have changed,
In the early 50's, when marine ply first became available there was a boom in "home built" ply dingy's (which established most of the yacht clubs in Australia). In the late 60's when fibreglass was incorporated there was a boom in catamarans. In the late 70's there was a boom in sail boards, and in the late 90's this current mini boom in spinnakers on cats started. What is the common point about all these "booms"?? Well in between each of them there was a minor (or major) downturn in the economy, and when the "boom" movements all started and reached their peaks they were tied inextricably with the improving and booming economy's! At the start of every boom the "established classes all voiced the opinions that the "new kids on the block" were just a passing fad and wouldn't last!!! How wrong each and every one of those opinions were! The same could be said of spinnakers, but who is game enough to state that and stand by their opinion? I heard many cat sailors say before sail boards were accepted into the Olympics that they (sailboards) would very soon die as a stupid fad - wrong again - throughout the 70's dingy sailors were adamant that cats aren't "real boats" and will curl up in a corner and die, wrong! Fibreglass for boats is too heavy, too slow, and too expensive, remember that?
Forget the arguments fellas, there are just too few cats sailors around to be arguing over such unimportant things, lets agree to disagree and get on with putting on a united front and "promote ALL catamarn sailing". It doesn't matter what you sail and "which is best" that doesn't last. The best doday is second tomorrow anyway. The good points are that we all love "CATAMARANS" in their many different and varied forms, shapes and performances, lets all remember that and the rest will follow its natural progression.

Besides at the clubs in South Australia it doesn't matter if you get back to the beach at 10 pm, the beer is still cold, the showers are still hot and the tractors are still available to tow your boat up the beach, and most of the sailors never leave the club bar until well after dark. PERHAPS we're just lucky here in GOD'S OWN COUNTRY???

1) It looked fun.
2) It is fun.
3) It seems the only reasonable way, being located in the southeast USA,I can get back to class racing in a 14' single handed cat.
4) the cost was very reasonable for me to rebuild my boat.

My real hope now is that the latter goal of racing these things somehow gets realized....

Pat

Whatever gets "bums on boats" on the water is AOK by me, (ps "BUMS" in Australia is the same as butt in the USA, not a "down and out" or "tramp")

Don't get excited Daz, we're just have a lively discussion, nothing personal just a good debate old mate . Struth, we should be able to discuss stuff, it's what makes the world go round well that a sailing anyway.
Bern

Hey Guys,
Valid points all round, and a good, argumentative but non-confrontational discussion going on here.
Bern, problem with guys like me & Wouter is that we`re addicted to pure speed. The spinnaker makes SAILING the boat so much more fun that I wouldn`t be able to sail without it. Having said that, if I raced in a non-spin. fleet I`d ditch the kite & compete on equal terms, so in that respect i`d agree with you. I`d be the first one to go back to a Paper Tiger if we had a strong class here.
On the flip-side, if you sail with a kite everyone else looks on in disbelief as you fly a hull downwind in 5 knots & thinks "hey, looks like fun, for a small investment I can add that turbocharger to my boat too !". Of course there`s no guarantee it will work out that way, you may have a divided fleet as you said, and the whole fragile setup that exists currently could collapse. We had very real concerns when adding the kite to the Mozzie in SA (South Africa, not South Australia !), but after a year and a half we have shown considerable growth and a re-awakening in our existing fleet : Example - a Mozzie sailor sold his Mozzie & bought a Hobie 16, and has now sold the H16 & bought a new Mozzie with kite, as it looks more exciting & is faster than the Hobie. So we won back a sailor we thought we`d lost. My point is that if you don`t keep your class exciting to the sailors who ARE ALREADY IN IT, you will really struggle to attract new sailors, and may lose a few of the existing guys to faster boats. Of course, there is a place for non-spinn. 14ft boats, as newcomers to sailing would be overwhelmed by the spinnaker if they buy a high-performance boat first time. Not too many beginners start off on Tornados or I-20`s.
One thing I can`t agree with Wouter on is the A-class, it`s a perfect single-hander, and just becuase it isn`t the fastest catamaran anymore due to the introduction of spinnakers in other classes doesn`t mean it can`t survive without a spinnaker. I don`t believe that it will suffer just becuase other boats are quicker, as a class it will remain strong as long as it is supported by it`s class memnbers. Since it is the pinnacle of development class single handed sailing I don`t see a threat.
The Laser class is still strong despite the 29er being faster, I don`t think you`ll see a spinnaker on the Laser anytime soon.
The main resaon I think sailing is on a decline is that we are not doing enough to get NON_SAILORS into the sport, new boats come onto the market, but the only people buying them are existing sailors, so that in turn causes a decline in older classes.

Cheers
Steve

I think you are absolutely right Steve. There has been NO serious thought or effort put into recruiting new blood into cat sailing for a very long time that I know of. The 14ftrs, are undoubtedly the best entry level class but it has been seriously neglected by cat entrepreneurs the world over. I've raced 14ftrs for the past 15 odd years and the technology is still 20-30years old. Except for my 430 there has been almost No development in 14ft cats over that time, a sad state of affairs. I agree it could be argued that there's been no input because there's been no interest but it could just as easily be argued that there's been no interest because there's been no development. The problem seems to be that organisers don't seem to appreciate the importance of providing for, or encouraging younger sailors. Rather, smaller boats here in Australia anyway, are generally seen as a bloody nuisance at open regattas.
My interest is in supporting the 14ft effort and encouraging young sailors wherever possible.

No I don't see the 'A' class ever adopting a spinnaker. Like formula 1 in motor racing, their whole philosophy is to extract maximum performance from a minimum energy source. There's definitely a valid place for formula 1 race cars as there is also a place for 125 GP race bikes but just not racing on the same circuit at the same time as the Moto GP bikes. Formula 1 will never race with 6 litre V8's.
I see 14ftrs as the 125's, and the A's as the formula 1's of sailing. We've just got to get the idea across that, like the 125's, 14ft cats have a valid and indispensible place in the cat world.
Bern

P.S. Wouter you're right in that even though my 430 is the fastes 14ft cat in the world by a street it's not attracting much interest but you think if I make even faster by fitting kite it will?

Ok so here's the provisional capitulation Wouter (sort of):).

Thinking about this further and somewhat as a result of your comments I've realised that a market exists for the 430 with kite for those who might currently be sailing a less than optimal 16 two up, and who might want to go single handed on a hi tech. 14 with equal or better performance than what they are accustom to.
I will continue with development along the lines that a purchaser can opt for fitting the kite or not in a campaign where both classes could be catered for.
Bern

>>>Formula 1 will never race with 6 litre V8's

You may be right about that but for different reason than you assign to it

Formula 1 engines :

"It is now well established that the optimum swept volume for a 4-stroke, petrol-burning cylinder is between 250cc and 300cc, representing 12-cylinder and 10-cylinder 3-liter engines respectively"

And I think they are running 3 liter V10's as mandated by regulations right now.

So much for your 6 liter V8. It is doubtful this engine will outperform the 3 liter V10 with regard to speed. In racing the reach in RPM is just as important as raw power.

Currently the power of F1 V10's is more than Cart and NASCAR's ; I'm told

>>P.S. Wouter you're right in that even though my 430 is the fastes 14ft cat in the world by a street it's not attracting much interest but you think if I make even faster by fitting kite it will?

No, but making sailing it more exiting and modern will. If everybody wants to buy red cars than why would a manufacturer try to convince the public that they really want a black one ?

Wouter

Hey Wouter, I don't think that a V10 motor will fit in any of my cats!!! (he he he)
But seriously though (sounds like a Monty Python movie, "but seriously folks"), wouldn't we cover all the bases if we were to adopt both a formula 14 AND a 14a class for the 14' cats??
The formula 14 would encompass any new F14 style cats with spinnaker, as well as ALL the existing cats (with or without spinnaker) and the 14A would fit all the new designed F14 cats sailing WITHOUT their spinnakers?
To me that would represent the best of all worlds! Every configuration that any sailor could wish to sail with would be catered for with the least amount of disruption and the greatest amount of participation??
Darryl

Hi Darryl, Bernie, Wouter & anyone else interested.
I think what we`ve learned from F16 growth & non-growth in certain areas can perhaps give some valuable insight as to what might or might not work.
Firstly, from this thread alone it`s clear to see that F14/16 must grow in different regions in different ways, such that it promotes the greatest level of interest in the specific region. In F16 this has lead to allowing non-optimised F16 boats such as the Mosquito to become "part of the class" which has helped F16 get a foot in the door in countries where it could otherwise not exist, like South Africa, and has been beneficial to both parties.
Locally you might have to improvise on the class structure to get buy-in from local sailors - At Bernie`s club this might mean having a spin. & non-spin. class separately if numbers allow, or perhaps racing on handicap within the class which seems to work for them now. Ultimately spinnakers will filter into the 14ft open class, it is still just as important to attract sailors who don`t wish to sail with one for whatever reason - you might win them over in time, but not if they lose interest & pack it in to take up another sport.
I think the US guys are on the right track, get as many sailors of older generation 14fters to upgrade what they have & compete with newer 14`s such as the Mystere. That way the new generation boats don`t make the older ones obsolete.

Good luck in making it happen !

Cheers
Steve

Honestly, if someone wants to sail uni, they'll likely buy an A-cat. Spinnaker sailing is more speed and more fun. More "wow" to those sailing and those watching.

It's like the Chevy v8 conversion for the Pontiac Fiero....

Hi Steve, Hi Brian,
The box rule that has been "kicked" around here. if it is encompassed will hopefully obviate any problems for all "14" cats. There are two drafts. one to cover all new F14 cats AND incorporate ALL the existing 14' cats as well and another box rule for an "A" class 14' cat, that is esentually a cat built to the "new" F14 rule BUT sailed without a spinnaker, (it can be converted simply by adding the spinnaker) Both "box rules" would be incorpoated within the constitution for a new association for 14' cats.
It would appear that it is necessary to have an F14 rule for any "new" designs that are built expressly within the box rule (as opposed to all the various size and shaped "existing" 14' cats), and similarly for a non spinnakered version of the same ie new designs built within the box rule.
This will then cover and include ALL 14' cats equatibly with the maximum of harmony
I will include below the two potentual "box rules"

The “Box rule” governing an F14 catamaran is –

1. L.O.A. of the hulls (excluding any “T foils, rudders and all rudder fittings) 4.34 metres
2. Maximum Beam Overall 2.5 metres
3. Mast Height, unrestricted, although the mast can only
form a percentage of the total sail area of no more than 15%
of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing sail
(articulated or not).
All the sails shall be of a “soft” fabric type
4. Maximum Sail Area (including half the area of the
mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail), shall not exceed 27.87 sq metres (300 sq feet)
This maximum area includes the combination of the
areas of ALL sails whether there be a mains’l, a jib,
and a spinnaker, or any combination there of.
The measurements of all the sails shall be by the calculation of the “actual” sail area.
5. Construction materials are unrestricted
6. Minimum Weight (all up sailing weight minus crew) 50 kgs
7. “T” foils (not hydrofoils) used primarily, ONLY for the stablelization of pitch, and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the aft underside of the hull within 300mm of the transoms, and that the angle of “attack” of the “T” foils are non adjustable whilst sailing, are allowed. No attached foil shall exceed the width of the allowable beam of the catamaran, as allowed within this box rule.
8. Closed cell foam buoyancy is required to be fixed internally in the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew,
in the upright position, with the hulls at, or above the
surface of the water, when one or both hulls are
completely full of water.
9. Number and weight of crew are unrestricted. (with reference to “Crew and Crew Weight” in the preceding section of the class rules)
10. Any spinnaker pole, or spinnaker pole fittings shall not protrude further forward of the forward most point of the bows (measured at 90 degrees from the centre of a line connecting the two most forward parts of the bows of each hull), by more than one metre.
11. All 14’ catamarans, designed and “on the water”, before the incorporation of this constitution, that have a hull length no greater than 14'6", and carry a sail area, (inclusive of all the working sails, including half the area of the mast bounded by the luff length of the main sail, and a spinnaker/reacher) no greater than 300 sq ft IN TOTAL, can race with, and compete against, the F14 catamarans designed and built to conform within this "box rule", on an equal, "across the line first wins". Albeit that they, (the pre existing 14' catamarans) shall be allocated an appropriate handicap/rating (per class of catamaran), for their finishing times against each other (that is the pre existing 14' designed catamarans) for competition within their own "division", exclusive of the "new" F14 catamarans.
12. From time to time, by an agreed vote of the membership of the F14 catamaran association, catamarans that do not fit within the preceding “box rule” definitions (from item no 1. through to item 11. inclusive) may be allowed inclusion to sail/compete with and against all those catamarans that comply to the afore mentioned items 1. through to and including item 11. by being afforded an appropriate handicap/rating, designed to keep all racing results fair and equitable between different “classes” of catamarans so competing.

4.3metre, “A” class,
“box” rules for“ open” development class catamaran.

The craft must be a catamaran, having two identical hulls of equal volume, with the rudders attached at/to the transom/s i.e. not extended out from the stern of the craft so as to effectively “extend” the waterline length of the hull/s.

Maximum hull length
(excluding rudders & rudder fittings)
4.34 metres
Maximum beam (over all)
2.5 metres
Mast height unrestricted, although
the mast can only form a percentage
of the total sails area of no more than 15%
of the mainsail area, i.e. no “solid” wing
sail (articulated or not). All the sails shall be
of a “soft” fabric type

Maximum sail area, including half the area of
the mast, bounded by the luff length of the main sail,
(without wrinkles or folds in the luff). The sail shall be of a single “laminate”.
145.31 sq ft 13.5 sq metres

Minimum, all up sailing weight
i.e. hulls, beams, mast, boom, all rigging and
sheeting, rudders, centre/dagger boards, in
fact the entire cat excluding only the sail(s)
and crew
111 lb (imp’) 50 KG
Crew unrestricted

Construction material unrestricted

Hydrofoils.
“Hydrofoils” that are used to “lift” the hull(s) due to the forward movement through the water of the catamaran, (i.e. these foils are of an asymmetric profile, designed to generate upwards lift by the action of their movement through the water), are not allowed.

“T” foils (as opposed to “hydrofoils”)
Used only for the stablelization of pitch, and only of a symmetrical profile, without having any adjustment to the angle of “attack” of the foils whilst sailing (i.e. not independent of the movement of the hulls), and only if attached to, or forming part of the rudders, or attached to the underside of the hull(s) within 300mm 0f the transom(s), are allowed. No foil(s) shall protrude to any point wider than the maximum allowable beam of the class (i.e. or 2.5 metres).

Closed cell foam buoyancy is required to be permanently fixed internally in the hulls, sufficient to maintain the vessel, and its crew, in the upright position, at or above the surface of the water, when one or both hulls are completely full of water. (safety rule)

Well it seems like you guys are onto something good! (and giving me ideas for when I upgrade from the paper tiger)

Berne : with the spinnaker and headsail what are you expecting to sell your revamped 430 for?

Darryl : do you have any pictures of the alpha omega? even of the old one that most resembles what the new one will look like?

I reckon F14 is a great idea, and anything that can haul the mail with a hobie 16 and has less waterline than them is okay with me (too many of them in WA)

I think though that having a formula within a formula will complicate things though (the suggestion of an 'A' class for the newer spin boats) why dont you put everything down to yardsticks and work it out from there, or simply run races for CAT JAM or SPI

lets show them how us aussies do 14 footers!

(oh and p.s. wouter ; what are these AHPC 'quick knots' you speak of? you didnt attach said picture and I cant find anything on the web!)

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