2Bsailing and Viper F16 are keeping the peddle down !

Brouwer and Bundock on the Viper have just won the Open Belgium Multihull Championship, while competing directly with the F18's.

<img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Do you mean scratch - no handicap? I take it the boat was more likely to be sailing on handicap as a Viper as opposed to an F16. There's a penalty you know for being able to push the lightweight F16's around solo and I suspect that it was not being taken. However, I take nothing away from the acheivements of such high calibre sailors.
The results achieved give some credibility to the weight arguement looking at the predominent handicap sailing environment. If the boat was not sailing as an F16 on handicap be wary of quoting the result as being that of an F16 due to the different time correction factors.

Cheshirecatman

Well, when you have 14 F18's and 2 F16's...

I understand what you are saying but then again the Viper F16 was designed to fit inside the F16 rules and be competitive in that class. In fact, it was specifically designed as a F16 from the very onset. Additionally, both the 2Bsailing and AHPC websites identify the boat as being an F16 and in photo's and drawings the sails show the insignia VF16. Without the F16 class the Viper would never have been designed. Other then that, the rating difference of 2.5 points (taken over about a 100) is small change at best. With that you are not going to correct out to 1st when you come across the line as 5th for example. On the second day, they corrected out to 1st places while never finishing out of the top 3 on elapsed time. So the handicap contributed to at best a 1 or 2 places improvement ; the rest can be fully attributed to sailor skills (and the boat design).

To make a long story short the Viper is an F16, irrespectively of what some rating system like SCHRS says, what its real >107kg ready to sail weight is or to what rating it is sailed in a specific race.

In the past some Hobie Tigers were also awarded different handicap numbers then the F18 class as well and no-one ever made much fuss about that; so why should we do so now with respect to the F16's ?

Other then that the crew Brouwer/Bundock sailed very well even on elapsed time

In their twitter account they themselves state :

Racing the Viper @ Knokke Heist (VVW) in Belgium tomorrow for the Open Belgium Multihull Championships and ready to take on the larger F18's

Good fun racing the Viper against the F18's @the Belgium championships. 8-10knts. Carolijn took line honours in 2nd race. Score of 2,1,1,2.

Viper wins the Belgium Multihull Championship winning all three final races 2day on handicap and finishing top 3 in all races on line honours

And of course Ding is absolutely right. When 2 F16's share a start with 14 F18's then

hell yes

you are competing directly with them for position, clean air and the lead.

Either way the cake is sliced, the Viper design proved again to be a very fast catamaran when in capable hands; able to take on much larger boats in open class racing (either on handicap or on elasped time). By extension the F16 setup is working, it is producing very competitive boats such as in this case the Viper.

Can we please stop nitpicking ?

Wouter

Where you been Ding?

Go Viper!!!! WOOOOO <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Another newsflash, again dealing with a Viper F16

This was taken from the twitter tape as found on the AHPC website

AHPC impressed at the Australian Uni Fleet Regatta. Sailing for MONASH, Goodall and Pursch won the skiff/catamaran division on the VIPER

The stuff just keeps coming !

Wouter

Great boat and a talented crew however not an F16 result. If entered and scored as an F16 fair enough, but it wasn't the case. Only one F16 on the results sheet in mid-fleet. It's not nitpicking it's playing by the same rules.
In the early days of F18 the rating differences were exploited in the same way by some

manufacturer class designs

in open events. I cannot honestly recall the last time that happened with F18 boats. Whilst F16 sailors are exploiting the softer handicap of the Viper to claim this as an F16 victory is is just not so. An admirable result? yes, but not an F16 victory. If the same result had been achieved as an F16 entry and scored as such - fair play, but not this one.

Cheshirecatman

Does a rose by any other name smell less sweet ?

Wouter

Anyway to get the times so we can put this topic to bed?

I looked but coulsn't find them.

It was hard enough to find the corrected results already, took me well over an hour of googling.

Maybe Gill or somebody is more successful here ?

Wouter

Wooter, Many times I have tucked in behind a group of 4 or 5 F18s or Hurricane 5.9s (all covering each other), when racing the Spitfire, and beaten them all on handicap. It's quite easy to do when you do not have to get past them on the water.

Congratulations formula 104!!!! maybe we need a 104 forum?

You did maybe in some shared start local race while sailing the Spitfire (with an even slower rating then the Viper) that everybody otherwise ignores, but Brouwer/Bundock in the Belgian championships didn't. Remember, their worst result on elasped time was 3rd and they were also first over the line at least once. I'm also quite sure that the other crews tried to stuff them as they were directly competing with them for the title.

Therefore I say that it is a very good result by a design created for F16 racing; no matter what smoke and mirrors certain Capricorn F18, Infusion F18 and Spitfire sailors are throwing up.

And before we forget, the SCHRS F16 rating is slower then the F18's as well and therefore the same situation can arise there to, although you need to be really on their heels then.

Wouter

Go for it then, set one up and get on with it, we wouldn't then have to deal with mind set Aussies who can't take a good hint to take there repeated views else where.

Perhaps we could then talk about boat setup, sail design, racing calenders, you know all the the things that promote a good strong class, without the intervention of the doomsdayers from Aussie saying we are all doing it so wrong. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

Ignoring Dazz silly post.
Wouter, I am talking about Irish National events where my ability is about the same as the competition (certainly not up to International standards). It is easier to beat someone on handicap, if you don't have to pass them on the water. What was the standard of the Belgian sailors who were sailing against two of the top sailors in the world ?
I held off a Wildcat in the Shadow in a 1 hour club race last night. He passed me 50m before the finish line. It's all about who is sailing the boat <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Numbers two and three from the Belgian event where 21 and 23 at the last F18 worlds, I think its fair to say these are skilled sailors.

I agree !
I think that I have been on this forum long enough for people to know that I believe in the F16 concept and am not knocking the Viper.
My only point is that it is a lot easier to sit close behind a cat with a lower handicap number and win a race than it is to get past them to win the race. I have done it many times.

But then a 16ft cat with a smaller sail area should never be able to keep up with an 18ft cat with a larger sail area, particularly from behind where the effect of the larger sail area will make that job even harder. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

I though that a Formula 16 was meant to be able to do that <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
I don't mean sitting in his wind shadow, just close enough to win on handicap.

I fully agree with you Dermot, I too have done it many times! It's just so much easier when you don't have to actually pass to get the win.

Conversely, I've also had it happen to me the other way when on a faster boat and I just can't quite get past the slightly 'slower' boat perhaps because he's able to point higher and I can't quite get through to leeward - but then, I shouldn't have got myself there in the first place!!!!

The first 3 F18 were very skilled sailors. Carolijn and Bundy finished mostly behind the first F18 according to the race report I just read but made it on handicap.

The challenging and fun thing about sailing an F16 in an open event is that you have to apply all your tactics to get in front of the F18 as well. I have finished well in open events with a Nacra 5.0 many times because you see all the errors, the best lines and don't have to bother on how to pass the boat in front of you because they should be faster most of the time. But there is no fun in that.

If a skilled sailor sails the F16 he is perfectly capable to keep up with the larger cats and to overtake them.

Well that is undeniably true.

However the same thing can also happen if they sail off the F16 rating, that one is also slightly slower then the F18 rating, although by less of a margin. So in that sense the situation is not that much different.

Ohh Dermot, just in case, my comments are not specific to you or anything. I respect you and your opinion and you have indeed always been a supporter of the F16 class. If I have insulted you then I appologize. My frustration with some people nitpicking may have allowed my comments to come out more harsh then I wanted.

Regards,

Wouter

No problem Wouter, <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

It's great to see stars like Brouwer and Bundock promoting the class.

I dont really understand what dermot is trying to get at.

If you apply your twisted logic to handicap racing then the small boats should always win the Sydney to Hobart or the Fastnet or Texel. Cause the small boats have it easier???? Just doesnt make any sense mate.

Ive raced quality F18s on a 104. And from my experince its really very hard. You have to be very close to the F18 in front of you to beat them in a 40-45 min race. Not easy to do when you spend most of the race sailing in gas. Your small sails disdvantage you even more if you do get clear air. Just makes caroline and bundys victory all the more impressive to me.

If you are accepting that a Viper winning a regatta whilst using the 104 handicap is also a win as an F16, then it should be ok to sail the European champs on a viper using the 104 rating against the rest of the f16 boats?

Now I'm sure none of you stalwarts will agree with such a proposal but you must realize that you can't claim a victory for the boat whilst it's not even using the class designated handicap.

If there is a fleet of f16s to race then the f16 handicap is fine. If your in a mixed fleet that doesn't include a fleet of f16s you should take any break that you are entitled to.

Agreed, unless of course your goal was to promote the F16 as a class.

I'm all for throwing out the handicap in F18 v F16 racing.