Now I'm sure none of you stalwarts will agree with such a proposal but you must realize that you can't claim a victory for the boat whilst it's not even using the class designated handicap.
Macca,
before trying to apply any sort of logic to this; check out who started this thread.
But one could also argue that if you are not prepared to play by the F16 rules then don't bother to turn up to a F16 organised event.
Equally if you are prepared to design and build a boat to the F16 box rule, advertise it as a F16 compliant boat on the manufacturers website, race it as a F16 in events such as the Singapore championships which you mentioned, sell it to customers as a F16 boat, then AHPC cannot complain if the F16 class extolls its winning capability on its forum.
In my view its time AHPC came off the fence and decided which class they are going to compete in, 104 or F16, it would certainly stop all this bickering that is going on.
You're missing the point Wayne. The Viper is a fine boat and is built to the F16 formula. No matter what class it is sailed in it will attract a fair number of sailors. Many of those sailors will come from the F18 ranks.
That's why so many F18 insiders are trying desparately to discredit the class and keep us away from established venues. All this nonsense about weights and handicaps is a red herring. F18 sailors who get to know the F16 will be interested in it. Some will buy.
Those builders without a F16 in their product line will loose sales. Never doubt it.
Why should AHPC get off the fence????
When it comes to the crunch, they will only keep building boats IF they can sell them... (After all, they do need to pay their employees!!!)
Having a boat that can be marketed in multiple areas is a big plus.... just ask any marketing guru!!!
And let's look at Greg's history - He started his catamaran sailing on a mosquito catamaran - Wow... A 16ft cat that can be sailed as a Uni or Sloop. Then in 1988 designed the Taipan - Wow... another 16ft cat that can be sailed as a Uni or Sloop..... Then the F16 association came along.
Even though Greg has openly spoken against some of the F16 rules, it is currently the box rule that closest fits his thinking.... Hence, AHPC has
come to play
... but that does not mean that they have chosen NOT TO PLAY the other games!!
That's why so many F18 insiders are trying desparately to discredit the class and keep us away from established venues. All this nonsense about weights and handicaps is a red herring. F18 sailors who get to know the F16 will be interested in it. Some will buy.
Those builders without a F16 in their product line will loose sales. Never doubt it.
LMAO...
That means laughing my butt off.
<**** from both sides is just plain fackin' stoopid.
The only people that would come from an F18 have either lost their crews and need a singlehanded spin boat, or they were too light and/or not up to the physical demands of the larger boat in the first place. There is nothing outside of those two things that would pull anyone from a F18. The flip side is the F16 class is more likely to loose people to F18 because a bigger team didn't buy enough boat.
If I had steady crew, (or if anyone could stand being on a floating kitchen table with me for extended periods), I'd be on an F18.
I miss MX, things were settled over a few punches, much cleaner than this pissy, little girl with a skinned knee approach.
Suite yourself, I'm game.
To me that is such an easy question to answer, as things are both 104 or F16 will simply
bobble along
as individual classes, put full support behind one or other and you have a large number of boats creating a class that looks established and numbers increasing. Like leemings, the masses tend to follow and a ground swell of activity begins, that is how all strong classes began.
Sorry but the F18 and F16 boats are so different and designed for completely different jockey weights that there will be little crossover of personel, what you do get from the two classes is two completely differnt groups of people able to compete on almost equal terms. Cool and can only be to the benefit of the sport.
AHPC should reign in the Aussie dogs who keep biting away at the heels of both classes by using personel friendships and contacts. AHPC would be surprised by how quickly things would become established to their favour if they could just keep building on the good press rather than the devisive press we see at the moment.
Never contributed to these threads but my colleagues who sail/own AHPC products would probably object to being described as
dogs
... I know I certainly do.
Stick to facts and evidence you can use to support you assertions.
In short... Keep it professional.
Welcome Dodsy:
What do you think about dumping the handicap and racing F18/F16 straight up? I'm sure the F18 would have an advantage, but is it enough to worry about?
I think if buying a modern F16-based machine, you have more credibility if you enter a regatta assuming that handicap. The only reason skippers should nominate a more favourable handicap is if they are one of only a few competitors with varied handicaps.
Basically, if I were to buy a Viper, I am seeking to compete as an F16. Simple really.
While on the subject, is there any evidence to back the conspiracy theory that AHPC is not supporting an F16 culture or is in any way attempting to sabotage your formula?
I read lots of sensational accusations (read: juvenile whinging and name-calling) but no actual substance.
Re dumping of F18 vs F16 handicap, I have not raced either enough to give a qualified answer so I won't.
I've no knowledge of AHPC's intentions, but from what I've seen they're just trying to sell boats and promote catamaran sailing; and doing a very good job at both.
Fwiw, I've seen F18s and F16s on the same course often. The finishes seem to be related more to skill than handicap.
I defer to your greater experience.
Respectfully, I don't believe F16 will inherit sailors from the F18 ranks on the grounds that most of the F18 combinations probably need the bigger platform and have a steady, established team.
I can't agree more with you regarding AHPC's intentions. I submit that a few contributors need to ease back on their invective - such a tactic will probably ease their blood pressure... It will certainly lend greater credibilty to the F16 community (vis a vis Mr Marlow's
dogs
comment).
dogs
comment).
In all respect Dodsy if you had been around for a while on this forum, you would perhaps understand my statement, the biggest
stirrers
and
waffle artists
sadly seem to be Aussie based.
Now if you are not a
stirrer
and
waffle artist
then you can exclude yourself and any similar minded Aussie sailor, from being a
dog
and join into the banter of this forum.
Can't speak for anyone else, but as I get older (I am a very fit 56) my tolerence for things like lugging around a 400lb boat has passed, especially when a much lighter weight alternative exists with the added benefit of a lower cost.
As all of us baby boomers get older, weght of the platform will become more of an issue. The weight minimum that Macca and his associates fight to increase is one of the major draws of the F16, one that can pull sailors and would be sailors from other active and dead one design and formula classes who refuse to abandon outdated excessive minimum weights.
I rest my case.
Wayne, just because I haven't posted before doesn't mean I haven't been around for a while. It was your all-encompassing descriptions of Australians as dogs with no qualification which finally goaded me into speaking.
I won't bother with further contribution (which will probably make you happy) until a more positive strain enters the debate... Response only dignifies the insults.
As all of us baby boomers get older, weght of the platform will become more of an issue. The weight minimum that Macca and his associates fight to increase is one of the major draws of the F16, one that can pull sailors and would be sailors from other active and dead one design and formula classes who refuse to abandon outdated excessive minimum weights.
Agreed.
When I get too old to lug the F16 around; I'll buy an A.
107 kg is heavy? You must be kidding. <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> Anyway for you younger guys who are looking to get fit pushing your boats up and down the beach the Viper is several kg. heavier and if that's still not enough try strapping on some lead.. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
No, contacts are good and AHPC has always been fully supportive of the F16 class and F16 activities.
Such rumours have always been spread by a few well known individuals looking to find a fault line that may split the class when hammered hard.
Personally, I don't care one bit at what rating the Viper sails as long as it sails on elapsed time basis in official F16 events (and in possession of a compliant measurement certicate).
Additionally, the F16 class is fully supportive of AHPC and understands that they market the boat for multiple uses (among which both F16 and F104 for the French sailors)
Wouter
Additionally,
There is actually a good market for F16's and builders and agents involved don't really see the F18 and F16 classes as being competitors; rather they express the view that they see them as complementary.
I for one envision crews moving in and out of both classes and in eachother and I think that is actualle very healthy.
I too talk to various people and indeed sailors (also F18 crews) who test sail a F16 are almost invariably very positive afterwards.
There is ample market potential for both classes and in fact both can feed of eachother and be more successful.
Wouter
+1
There is ample market potential for both classes and in fact both can feed of eachother and be more successful.
Then I guess the builder with both types in their product line is in good shape.