I would think that the difference in cost to build a boat with curved rather than straight boards would be less than the increase in cost to build it with carbon beams, mast and hulls as the current class rules allow...
I was just thinking that storing curved daggerboards would be a pain in the rear.
But man are they cool looking. Performance enhancing or not, I don't care. To me they're like boobs. They could be totally useless, (minus the nursing), but I love them.
Carbon is cheaper than Alu extrusions in some parts of the world.
The point is though Andrew that switching to carbon extrusions won't give any major change in performance whereas a change of foil format could (possibly a vast change). As Kris has pointed out this would create the 'haves' and the 'have nots' and that is NOT GOOD.
Having some all or part carbon boats might make a slight difference but is unlikely to create an arms race as the greatest variable and effect on performance will still be the sailor on the tiller.
Carbon is cheaper than Alu extrusions in some parts of the world.
Can you give me the contact details? I would love to get a couple of hundred carbon beams made up...
Carbon is cheaper than Alu extrusions in some parts of the world.
Can you give me the contact details? I would love to get a couple of hundred carbon beams made up...
Talk to Rolf; he is making Carbon beams becasue they are cheaper than buying in alu extrusions and fitting them out in Norway.
This situation only arises in places where the metal-guy charges astronomical prices to import a very small number of simple alu extrusions and the buyer himself is able to produce his own carbon beams (negating labour costs).
I have never seen a situation where the production of commerically available carbon beams is cheaper or even just as expensive as extrusion of high grade alu beams. In fact I don't believe we will ever see that happen at all, especially not when ordering more then 50 sets in one go (500 kg combined).
For those production batches, extruded alu beams of the 6005 T5 variant are incredibally cheap. The same applies to alu masts.
I'm not allowed to say how cheap exactly but trust me on this, carbon will never win over alu in that area. And I'm not talking about alu being cheaper by factor of 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., ..., ... either.
It is just one of those freak occurences when you live in some far of place without a sizeable industrial base of along an international shipping route.
Wouter
[quote=Wouter]
I'm not allowed to say how cheap exactly but trust me on this, ....quote]
I can... 500kg of extrusions should cost about AUS$3500-4000 or $70-80 per boat (assuming Wouter's 50). You'll pay a premium beyond that depending on the tolerances you demand. The premium is based upon wastage and also how often the die will need to be replaced.
Anyone want to source a PAIR of carbon beams for that price ? <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Wouter
I wonder why Rolf didn't just order a set of beams from a current manufacturer....
Hobie seem to be the only manufacturer that prices it's parts list online Europe (in english!) the cost for a Tiger front crossbeam is over £1000, that's probably the complete assembly but then even the tiller crossbar is £200.
edit: Hobie UK Parts
I have seen N6.0 beams being advertised second hand at about £200 each from when I was looking for some for mine. But then we are comparing new for new here.
Another one by way of comparison only (i.e. not up to spec for an F16) Dart 16 main beam is £225.
Because they were more expensive than he could make them out of Carbon! Simples.
I once asked for a custom shaped alu extrusion (rudder foil). The simple answer from a well known rigging supplier was:
You wan't pay it. Make it form glass or carbon fibres.
It works fine for standard shapes like tubes. We got 4m spin pole from 40mm alu for 150€ or so.
By the way, if you are close to a company working with CFRP, you may ask for cutting scrap (or however it is called in english) or expired prepregs. Sometimes you get it for free.
Cheers,
Klaus
Because they were more expensive than he could make them out of Carbon! Simples.
A beam extrusion, even from one of the big manufacturers (at full retail) will still be a lot less than someone could build one in carbon.
I understand the challenge in building your own beams in carbon, but to try and justify that its cheaper than an alloy beam is just not reasonable.
For reference on beams try
http:/
and for carbon tubes try http://carbonfibretubes.co.uk/ some of the big boat spinnaker poles are just the right size for us and its surprising the low cost on smaller tubes for tiller sticks etc, talk to them they always seem to have a bit laying around from a production run somewhere.
Why didn't I use carbon beams on Bitsa? Carbon is a great product for tensile strength, it is terribly weak and much inferior to aluminim if hit with something sharp or given the usual sailing abuse. To protect it you must use a reinforcing glass or kevlar outer layer which brings the weight right up to that of similar Aluminium tube. Aluminium is a great product, it just doesn't have the kudos of carbon fibre.
it is as with girls. We looks always for the bling bling, never for character.
But back to the original question: Are canted riggs class legal?
If you want to start a race with the rig canted permanently on one tack then - yes! <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
Class rules state:
1.7.1 It is not permitted to adjust the following items while racing: the rake of the mast, the tension of the standing rigging, the angle or length of the spreaders or the position and height of the gennaker boom.
1.7.2 It is permitted to adjust the diamond wire tension while racing or to adjust the items named under 1.7.1 between the races.
With that rule, its easy to change the rig canting. You just have to think about it a little...
you forget about the spirit of the rules..
Ahh, yes the
spirit
clause.... the get out of jail free card..
suck it up mate..
Class rules state:
1.7.1 It is not permitted to adjust the following items while racing: the rake of the mast, the tension of the standing rigging, the angle or length of the spreaders or the position and height of the gennaker boom.
1.7.2 It is permitted to adjust the diamond wire tension while racing or to adjust the items named under 1.7.1 between the races.
For once I agree with Macca (I feel dirty <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />. I don't see anything there preventing canting. You can't change the amount of tension, but nothing prevents you moving the mast side to side without changing the tension.
And sometimes those rules are weird: Pulling the jib halyard pulls the mast forward. Does this mean I can't adjust the jib tension on the water as it changes the mast rake? What about when I'm solo without a jib up? The halyard on my boat is still there, can I tension it?
What am I missing? don't see a problem in this rule.
If you move the mast top by manipulating the stays or whatever, you ARE raking the mast in a direction. And that is not allowed.
And putting the mast foot on a rail won't help either.
Am still with John Here.
Geert
Nope, thats why we call fore and aft changes
rake
and sideways changes are
canting
and by having a closed loop system you can change the mast cant without altering mast rake or rig tension.
Mosquito main beam or rear beam $45AUD or 27GBP.
cheers,
Darryn
Mozzy
1782
Arrow cat aluminium mast section is $70au. I like to see you buy the carbon cloth for double that price.
Does seem that canting rigs would be ok under the rules. You could even use a canting system to help right the boat. Light crews would not need a righting pole or bag.
rake
and sideways changes are
canting
and by having a closed loop system you can change the mast cant without altering mast rake or rig tension.
If the forestay remains the same length and one side stay is lengthened with the other shortened wont that reduce the mast rake slightly?
Darryn
I believe delivery costs for a full aluminium extrusion vs a roll of carbon cloth distorts the price for some ppl in certain out-of-the-way locations to the point that homebuilding in carbon becomes the cheapest option. That is the argument being put forward. Ignoring this aspect will certainly put aluminium extrusions ahead of carbon in price, but it isn't always that simple.
My personal experience was trying to buy a replacement mosquito mast a few years ago. If I lived near the major fleet it was a cheap exercise to just drop by the class stores and drive away with it for something like $300. I could not get one of these shipped to Brisbane, issues with length and fragility. So instead I had to search for alternatives locally and found a windrush mast supplier (which turns out to be very similar, it not the same), but the cost was near $700. At this price, it was nearly worthwhile building my own carbon mast, with easy availability of materials and my own labour. Maybe I didn't look hard enough for a viable transportation option.
But back to the topic. Where can I get some of that shark skin film?
Darryn
yep, if the forestay to bridle connection is above the mast base relative to the platform.
if they are at same height then rake will not change. the canting rotation occurs around a line from mast base to bridle (imagine a triangle being rotated about one of it's sides)
this is if you measure rake from mast top to rear beam on centreline.