Blade in France

Apart from UK, Holland, Germany boats?

The nearest F16 for any french sailors will be :

Blade F16 in Kokzijde (Belgium) ; should not be to far away from Boulogne Conception Marine (Cirrus designers). The owner frequents this forum and his is called Gill.

and

The Stealth F16 and Taipan F16's in Switzerland ; lake Geneva and the surrounding lakes. Their owners are not regulary readers of this forum.

The French market is very hard to penetrate. Especially since many of us do not speak and write French very well.

Any help will be warmly welcomed.

As such I advice you to contact the F16 Governing Council and coordinate any idea's that you have with them. If indeed a group of French sailors want to test sail a Blade F16 then I think that the European Blade importer would be very interested in working something out. Contact him through info@catamaranparts.nl . The European importer for the AHPC Viper F16's is Remco Kenbeek and he may well take the Viper along to say Carnac. He can be contacted through info@sailcenter.nl . Sadly there is no European importer for the Stealths at this time, but maybe something can be arranged with a private Stealth sailor for next years Carnac.

Personally I would love for some French crews to test sail the F16's and possibly have some French designers be attracted to designing and building a local F16. First and foremost because the French sailing scene is a world on its own. No class is truly international unless the French are part of it as well. And becoming succesful in French is a major boost to the depth of the F16 class, but in designs and sailors.

Wouter

errrm Wouter, there's no need for a European importer of Stealths since they're built in Europe!!!!

At least, we keep being told that the UK is part of Europe!

John Pierce of Stealth Marine can be contacted via the company website: www.stealthmarine.co.uk

So this EU collaboration really sinking in then.

And right you are of course !

I should have written

Continental importer

I'm sure that with enough interest, John Pierce is also willing to come over to France to demo his Stealth F16.

My mistake, sorry.

Wouter

I would love to see F16 making it's way into France and I don't care if it is Viper, Stealth, Taipan or Blade.
Just as long as the French get the chance to see what F16 has to offer.

Regards,
Phill

I thought the French were promoting that new Youth cat, the SL 16? Is that a growing class? It is a bit heavy for the F16 class and no daggerboards too. I was hoping they would choose the F16 for the youth boat instead of that.

The ISAF committee wanted to have a

kiddies

version of a high performance sailboat instead of a true high performance design.

Basically, daggerboards were disallowed and there were a few other requirements that took all the fun out of the design.

I still fail to see why ALL the mono's sailed by kids have daggerboards, from the opti up to the laser and 29-ers but the youth catamaran was required to have none !

I know AHPC was interested in making the Taipan 4.9 an entry for the new ISAF youth boat, but they refused to put things like rubber bumpers on the bows and remove essentials parts like daggerboards from the design. The (very young) F16 class at the time felt the same way and just ignored these ISAF trails believing the design likely to be chosen would be a hard sell anyway.

I still feel this way. Afterall, 12.500 Euro's for a 150 kg and very simple fitted-out SL16 is not attractive when compared to a 14.165 euro's for a fully fitted race-ready and truly fast F16 at 110 kg. I've just seen the quoted price for the Hobie Max (lost out to the SL16) and I was amazed to see it quoted higher then a F16. Now, that is just wrong !

I feel the ISAF committee missed a

slam dunk

here. They should have gone for the Taipans and be done with it. They didn't and as luck would have it this new SL16 youth class has to fight an uphill battle against a score of better designs in a quickly developping beach cat scene.

Basically they try to sell a totally new One-Design class in a scene that has so convincingly chosen to prefer the Formula setup (A-cat, Tornado, F18 and F16). Added to this is the fact that the class is too narrowly defined for youths. This will make marketing it to adult crews so much more difficult.

Wouter

Ok a silly idea.. F16 channel trophy!! beach running start to running finish line..
Hell if a 16 year old Aussie girl can swim the channel & return the poms and frogs should be able to sail it one way!!

I'm prepared to do the Freo to Rotto and return!!

Tom,

I'm based in Knokke-Heist (VVW Heist). I don't know where you live but I'm certainly interested in taking you for a sail if you want to.

What I can tell for sure is that you will sail as fast on the F16 as you did on the F18.

I'm sure it would be more interesting for Cirrus to built an F16 compliant model instead of their 16 foot boat they have now.

Next year I'm planning to sail the regatta at Carnac. And I hope some other F16 sailors will be there too, to get France interested.

Regards,
Gill

Thanks guys,

I've forwarded the message to the french cata forum. There is now a lot of discussion around F16 and that's a good news!
Thanks gill to offer a test ride, but even if I put my 2 cents comment in the french forum, I live now in seattle... Maybe some other french will want to try...
I will keep the forum informed about any meaningfull information read in the french forum.
I really hope that this will help to get more sailor and builder in the F16 class. I'm pressing hard to that end

Ciao,
thomas.

Tom,

Where is that French language forum ?

Writing French is hard for me but often I'm able to pick a few things by reading it.

Wouter

Wouter,

here is the link to the french forum:
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/cata/

And there is also a good news coming from it, a new bimare F16 compliant should be available in 2008!

Ciao,
thomas.

I can't find the thread where the F16's are discussed, only the posts about a new F104 class. Can you give us the direct link to the posts of interest ? Especially the one talking about the Bim F16 (full compliant).

Sorry, I had a brain blackout, the site has a search engine. I typed in F16 and found the bimare F16 posting immediately.

http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/cata/message/17522

Babelfish translation for the people who can't read French very well :

Wouter

The French are talking about creating a F104 formula class, refering to the 104 handicap rating under SCHRS (ISAF measurement handicap system).

http://class104.over-blog.org/

Basically it refers to all boats having a handicap of 104 and slower racing together in a single class. It seems some races have even been held this way. This rating encloses the Spitfire, Cirrus Evolution, Mattia Esse and the Hobie FX-one.

It however a bit funny when one poster on the blogs got enthousiastic about a F104 being launched in Australia, the AHPC Viper. Took the F16 class about 4 years to get AHPC to build a purpose build F16 and then some F104 class claims it ! <img src=

alt=

/>

Basically the F104 is the same as the F16 class was at its start-up 6.5 years ago. Grouping of similar performant boats. F16 grew into a class of its own right very quickly with the adoption of the F16 class rules only 5 months later.

There is also the mentioning of 10 Spitfire crews upgrading their boat with custom build sails (pentex) and thus leaving the One-Design-ness of the Spitfire class. Things seem to be moving or at least that is what the posters on the blogs are suggesting.

All very interesting stuff

Wouter

But, but but, why? Dont they know about the F-16 class?

AFAIK the creation of the F104 class has received a negative review by the FFV (National French Sailing Federation). All they are doing so far is asking regatta organizers to provide a separate result for only 1.04 compliant boats. But of course as the SCHRS changed for all cats recently, the 1.04 is completely obsolete anyway...

Interesting,

Although as a person who went through a similar project some years ago I didn't expect them to get somewhere quickly. As I remember it, creating a new class took 1000's of man hours by a dedicated group of people. And even then you'd steer nerve reckingly close to the threshold of collapsing the class halve the time.

For a project of that magnitude to succeed requires a huge effort and some good old fashioned luck at the right moments.

This is the reason why we see so very little new classes succeed at all.

Wouter

Actually the reason why I put my two cents in the french forum was to specify that the viper was not a F104 but a F16.

In many ways, the F104 is very close to the F16 and in france and UK, I believe that they are well installed. I don't have the number, but I think that there is more F104 in france and UK than F16 in the world... I must add that the class is growing, not declining despite all the rating issue.

I submitted the idea on the french forum than french manufacturer should launch sport catamaran which could be set as a F104 or a F16. My understanding of the catamaran manufacturing is that designing the hull and build the mould is a costly difficult process. I think it should be possible for them to design a hull compliant with both class and they can change the material and the weight of the hull to fit the wishes of the buyer...
That's almost what bimare will do with their new cat.
I think that F16 and F104 has to converge and my opinion is that it should be possible to make the F104 come to the F16. In my opinion, fighting against the F104 in france for now will be pointless...

The first thing is to create a buzz around the class (I'm trying).
The second thing would be to invite some journalist (from multihull for example, which is published in french and english) to try a blade.

If french manufacturers sense that there is a growing interest among the french sailors, they will design such a catamaran. They read the french forum and I think they read magazines.

That was my two cents...

Ciao,
thomas, who don't even have a F16!!!

This is not really a fair comparison, neither is it true.

There are 150 PURE F16's in the world and if we count the Taipan 4.9's with that group we get over 400 boats in total. Do the Spitfire and FX-one combined top that number ?

Basically the F104 is counting different designs as belonging to their class. But really how comparable is a Mattia Esse to say the Spitfire or the FX-one. For one thing the Mattia Esse has 17.25 sq. mtr. upwind sail area with the other two having 18.9 sq. mtr. and 19 sq.mtr. Similar differences exist between these boats and the BCM Energy. Between the F104 boats there is a rating difference of 5% already. The F16 class grandfathers boats but not by that much rating difference.

How many Cirrus Evolution are there about anyway. Basically the numbers of the F104 are made up of the Spitfires and the FX-ones. The rest are just 1 and 2's.

Spitfire claims over 150 boats sold; what does Hobie claim ?

The attendence at the last FX-one Europeans (their biggest event) was down right disappointing. FIVE boats raced.

http://www.eurohobie2007.com/files/risultatiFXONE.DOC

FX-one did better in 2006 with 10 boats participating in their Europeans, however not a single French team despite the fact the event was held in France :

http://www.eurohobie2006.com/resultats/eurofxone_s.htm

How about 2005, when the championship was held in the Netherlands, one of the regions with most FX-ones sold : 9 boats with 3 sailors over the age of 45 (and 2 over 50).

http://www.kzvg.nl/EK%20Hobie/ekhobieuitslagen.HTM

I wondered about this in the past but I don't see these attendence numbers as pointing to a class that sold many hundreds of boats. The Spitfires at least get 20 to 30 boats at their UK events. FX-one are thrilled to attract 10 boats to their UK nationals, that is if they held such an event at all since 2004. We never see more then 4 FX-ones at any Dutch event of magnitude, most often it is something like 1 or 2, seeing the 2-up version is even more rare. With only some 10 F16's in the Netherlands we achieve similar attendence numbers. I think we have a single Spitfire in the whole of the Netherlands; if was on sale for about 18 months before it switched owners.

I may be wrong but it does appear to me that the F104 is basically the French Spitfire class with a handful of FX-ones and some other boats thrown in. As such it is as we F16's were in the beginning. Mainly a Taipan 4.9 class with a few others thrown in. Nothing to be ashamed about, it can grow. However, claiming to contain more boats then the F16 class in the whole world seems like stretch to me. Afterall, using similar wide criteria we can count the Spitfires as F16's !

And I don't see UK + France having anything like 400 F104's. I'd surprised if there are more then 20 active F104 crews in the whole world, with all of them found in Northern France. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Another interesting observation is that the F16 class can not converge on the F104 at all. Basically, our class rules are fixed and with the number of boat sold and our growth numbers we can't modifying anything or risk upsetting the class. In principle this means that all the converging has to be done by the F104 class, which they will not do as that means that they must become full F16's.

Personally, I don't believe in fighting any class directly (with the exception of the US 18HT class in 2003, we HAD to do that). I've come to the opinion that for each class the biggest fight is for survival on its own merits anyway. Most classes fail on that even without being pressured by a competing other class. The rest is just a came of winning territory. Currently the F16's are secure in all area's of the world, the class has gained its critical mass and isn't fighting for its survival anymore. The F104 first needs to achieve that and only then can it enjoy thoughts of

fighting

the F16 class for

dominance

. Same problems are had by the nacra F17, FX-one and Spitfire classes. None of them are anywhere near achieving critical mass on a world scale. This is actually were alot of the 1000's of F16 class work hours went into. Creating a stable base world wide with at least 3 builders committed to supporting the class.

And your help is inmensely appreciated !

I think there was already a Taipan 4.9 + spi article in the Multihull World magazine a couple of years ago. It may be an idea to give it another go with the Blade or Stealth, but most of the time these mags request a sum of money and other privilegdes for having them write up an article. I have never seen the F16 class go to great lengths to achieve such a thing. Basically we grew (and grow) because we gave potential customers test rides and through our internet presence. This seems to have helped us very well. I personally rate multihull magazines rather low in importance. Most of the time it is a flash, such articles have no staying power. And we all know that these articles are written according to a standard template. Lay a couple of them next to one another and they pretty much all read the same.

I think what you are doing is best. Making the French sailors aware that the F16 class exist and that free personal test-rides can be arranged for seriously interested parties. From that the rest will follow. The F16 specs do a great job of convincing potential customers on their own.

Because what do you think any customer will choose out of the following comparison.

A 140 kg boat costing 14.500 without extra's like a snuffer setup or selftacker and having a rating of 1.04 and requiring a righting aid for solo sailors. http://www.sumhit.com/sites/bcm/fr/catamarans-options.asp?IdProduit=3

or a 110 kg F16, being cheaper at 14.165 Euro's when fully fitted with all

extra's

as standard and having a rating of 1.01 (or less) and not requiring a righting aid.

If this Evolution (more like a step back in evolution if you ask me) is made to directly compare to a standard F16 (snuffer, selftacker added) then it costs 15.560 Euro's. A singlehanded righting aid is added for another 215 Euro's. For 15.775 Euro one can have any F16 design fitted with a carbon rig (we call that a righting aid ! <img src=

alt=

/> ) and be smack at 107 kg ready to race in 2-up mode.

I have yet to meet any sailor who would chosen differently then go for the F16.

And again, many thanks for your efforts !

Wouter

Few design differences, almost same overall weight and sail area... In my point of view, Spitfire, FXone and the BCM evolution could be considered as real F104, like blade, stealth and Viper are F16. Nevertheless, I agree with you that the F104 is mainly the spitfire with (very) few other design.

So, lets say that the F104 is only made of spitfire, then 150 spitfire can be compared to the 150

true

F16. In one case, that's in france+UK, in the other case that's worldwide... My point is that there is a high concentration of spitfire in france, and that's why the F16 will have a hard time to grow there.

That is also the reason for what a sailor could choose a F104 instead of a F16 despite the better rating at the same price. A large class with high concentration of boats allows to do real time regattas and numbers of sailors really like to have that chance. That is already the case for the spitfire in some regattas (for example, the eurocat).
Make two differents set up of the same boat could bring some builder involved in the F104 to our class. And more builder mean more buzz...

It may be an idea to give it another go with the Blade or Stealth, but most of the time these mags request a sum of money and other privilegdes for having them write up an article.

Given this, I agree with you, multihull is probably a bad idea...

And again, many thanks for your efforts !

You're very welcome, but you know I have a personnal interest in all this. I want to be able to do some real time F16 regattas in france when I will come back from the US and buy a blade (or the new bimare???)!!!

Ciao,
tom_in_fire.

Ps : Wouter, you seem to understand the french very well! Your traduction was quite good! Where did you learn french?

High school, taking French classes is conpulsory for all Dutch teenagers. When doing the course line preparing for a higher follow-up education like University, the minimal required time spend on French is four years. For me that was 20 years ago but whatever you learn as a kid you never forget. Same with German (But I did that for 6 years). English is conpulsory for the full length as of course Dutch is.

Best of luck !

Wouter

One of the main contributor of the french forum (Stéphane Etienne) is interested by trying a Blade. For sure he will not buy one, but a good review from him in the french forum will be a good avertisement for the F16.
Gill, I think your blade in Kokzijde is the closest. Would you agree to give him a ride test? If so, I could pass him your e-mail adress to arrange this...

Ciao,
Thomas.

Thomas,

I tried to post a few responses on this French forum, but I can't see them show up. I did log on and didn't receive any error messages. Do I need to be accepted somewhere or something ? Do you know ?

Wouter

To all,

I have been reading up on the F104 founding specifications and history and it is basically at the point were the F16 class was during 2001/2002. The official language of the class rules and such is French, this will seriously limit its cloud outside of France itself.

Even more interesting is the absolute similarity between this F104 and the F16. One wonders if these French sailors have ever researched the stuff that has happened outside of France in the last 6 years. Basically they are reinventing the wheel.

One of their

unique

points was defined earlier this year as establishing a class where the same boat can be raced 1-up and 2-up and against one another. Where did I see this concept before ?

Seem BCM(=Cirrus), Mattia, Sirena/Swell(=Spitfire and SL16) and Hobiecat were invited for the meeting where this class was founded.

On the blogs some old falsehood as rehashed again. Like the lightweight boats (F16's) being fragile for ocean going conditions and that that is the reason to have the ready to sail minimum weight at 135 kg. Even with events as recent as the Alter Cup and Global Challenge I think the F16's have disproven that canard beyond any doubt.

I hate to say it but they are setting us all up towards a big confrontation. France going F104 while the rest of world is going F16. In the end there can be only one. The only place still open to both being the UK.

I know it is an impossible thing to ask of the F104 sailors, but we must really ask them to consider not creating a whole new formula class so similar to the F16 and rather join hands and work together to grow the F16 class. The international succes of the F16 is already certain, with the joining of France it is even garanteed to became a major class like the A's and F18's. For the F104 to achieve that on its own is too unlikely with the US, Asia, South Africa, Australia and parts of Europe already going F16. Add to that the fact that AHPC, Bimare, Stealthmarine, Formula catamarans (Aussie Blade) and Vectorworks are are already committed to F16's.

The class rules basically specify as the F104 boats :

No faster rating then 1.04 under SCHRS system where also :

max length 5.52 mtr
max width 2.55 mtr
min ready to sail weight 135 kg

Mast, beams, boom, spi pole etc must all be straight alu sections
Carbon may not be used for hulls, mast, boom, spi pole or beams.

Old spi pole length rule, the

800 mm past bows when layed skewed over the boat

rule that confuses so many people.

All materials not explicetly allowed are forbidden

Then some additional rules very similar to F16 like having no minimum crew weight as long as the crew can right the craft unaided.

I actually wondered why they didn't create a F100 class and have the F16 play with them in the same fleet ?

All this does tell me that Gill was right all along. The F16 class really should make a trip to Eurocat (Carnac) in 2008 and let ourselves be seen in the French scene.

Wouter

Maybe Greg was aware of the F104 particulars when he designed/built the Viper?

Thomas,

Please note that the SCHRS (FFV) rating for the F16's is not right. It is currently listed as 1.020 and quoted as such in the French blog discussions. However, the true rating is 1.008 (with F18 being at 1.005). A similar correction will be made to the F16 solo handicap. The cause is that SCHRS is using incorrect data for the F16 rig. A request for correction has been send.

So the performance difference is more then what the French sailors think it is.

Wouter

I don't think so. I talked with Greg about this new AHPC F16 design ever since 3 years back while F104 was only formally launched in april 2007. And Greg mentioned time and time again since the start of the F16 class in 2001 that they would do a F16 if the class picked up and the Taipan wasn't the fastest installment into the class anymore. Looking back now, that is exactly what he did.

Besides, if he had known before hand (and wanted the Viper to be a F104) then he would have maximized it under the F104 dimensions. There is no point in making a 135 kg 16 footer when you can make a 135 kg 18 footer. Customers won't buy a 16 footer when the in-class competition puts out 17 and 18 footers, even if it is faster. Its a perception thing.

Besides the Viper is slated to be 125 kg, which is below the F104 minimum weight of 135 kg, and at that weight it is faster then the SCHRS handicap of 1.04 as well. Breaking the class rules on these two points already is not a good way to introduce a F104 boat.

No, that Viper is an F16, pure and simple; albeit a slightly obese one.

Wouter

Hey Wouter, me thinks that MarkP might just have been using a slight bit of Welsh humour there about the viper and you could have replied with just the obese line.

English for the Europeans must be so hard to understand as there are so many ways of expressing humour in written form unlike the European languages where there is no such thing. <img src=

alt=

/>