Blade in France

Not really Wayne.

I have to reply in a serious manner or else a rumour will have been started.

Give a 100 people a clear quotation and 10% will misinteprete it.

Give a 100 people an ambiquious quotation and 10% will inteprete it right.

And that is what all mainland Europeans can understand and speak English but the English can't understand and speak any of the mainland European languages, right ?

The question here of course is whether I was serious or that this was a form of Dutch humour ?

Do you know ?

Wouter

Ahh, welsh humour. I still remember the

broken Blades

thread MarkP introduced himself with..

English humour is wonderful, caught

MP and the holy grail

on TV last weekend and had a real laugh. I think welsh humour need some facial expressions, intonation and body language to go with it before I get it, without having it pointed out to me.

Don't go there Rolf. I'm still trying to forget that thread which was just a summary of the recent problems posted by others but somebody shot the messenger with a machine gun.
On a more serious note. As Gill has already mentioned a couple of us are intending to travel to Carnac, France next April for the second biggest Cat Regatta in the World (Eurocat). At present there could be 4 F16's so it could be an excellent event if a few more would make it (any takers ?)

Mark,

in true Python style

On second thought, let's not go to the broken Blades thread. It is such a silly place.

However, your arrival on the forum was a notable one <img src=

alt=

/>

Agree that the F-16 class need some serious representation in France to demonstrate the working F-16 concept. It is really too bad that the language barrier still is there.

Surely this cannot be true Wouter , the Chairman of SCHRS sails a f16 himself and was closely involved with the data collection this year for the current calculations I would be astonished to find that the f16 handicap is incorrect , or perhaps uk f16s are undersized ???

This problem predates the tenure of the new (F16 sailing) chairman. He inhereted it.

I've been trying to correct this rating for over 2 years now. Send mails to Olivier Boven (former chairman) and such but I never received a reply. Then with this discussion of F104 on the French forums and our errornous F16 SCHRS rating of 1.02 I gave correcting it another shot. And the new chairman is a dream to work with !

Basically what the problem comes down to it that I was able to arrange an F16 rating under SCHRS based on the class rules of 2003. Of course we modified the class rules somewhat in 2005, these class rule changes has never been taken up by the SCHRS committee and so they still list the old rating of 2003. The modifications to the F16 class rules were small indeed but under SCHRS they result in a 1.2% rating drop just the same. This is mostly due to the introduction of the higher aspect daggerboards, these are of course unregulated in the F16 class rules.

The good news is that the corrected F16 rating will be very close to that of the F18's again. Compare 1.005 for the F18's and (expected) 1.008 for the F16's ; about 10 secs per hour difference.

So under SCHRS we are practically back again to

first-in-wins

The Texel Handicap has always been immediately adjusted to the changes. That is what I like so much about the Texel setup, among other things.

I wouldn't count on that !

Wouter

Is there anyone who knows what the number of similar boats is needed to have seperate results at Carnac?

Gill

I've been keeping on eye on this French forum, but it appears they are way behind the curve. Probably bcause they don't read any English Language websites. For example, they have just discovered T-foils because some Spitfire crews are adding them to their boats. And they are analysing equality of performance between the F18's and smaller lighter boats like the F104's (and F16's in the rest of the world). Not to mentioned the discussion if they should copy the F18 setup in having to different sets of sail area's for different crew weights. In the English language based scene these topics are already considered old, proven or discussed till their conclusion.

Basically, T-foils work, lighter smaller boat can be just as fast as the F18's and different sets of F18 sails don't work nearly as well as intended.

If one or two of them did a search on for example catsailor.com then they'll find most of their questions and considerations answered and proven with race results.

Also they are continueing to call the Viper F16 an F104, Stephane had to pull some tricks to

proof

his stance but the intent is clear. They want the Viper to be a F104 so as to claim an builder not local to France as getting into their F104 class.

F104 is basically a French class and from what I read non of the big builders like Nacra or Hobie is closely involved. At this time it is basically the Boulogne and Mattia yards with a group of private Spitfire owners. Again, Bimare is not longer actively supportive of the F104, in favour of a different 16 foot design and AHPC, well their Viper is an F16 with a rating of 1.030 were a raing of 104 or slower is allowed under F104.

I hope this updates the F16 class on what is happening overthere.

Wouter

How big is the Spitfire class, Wouter?

Just thinking positively for a moment, if F104 doesn't take off, does this suggest that Boulogne and Mattia could be convinced to build F16s? Is it in any way possible that those builders might not be aware of the F16? I'm trying to imagine what the business rationale would be behind marketing a boat that is a little slower that a competing class.

I've seen many claims, the highest being 250 boats sold. But I don't believe that. Mostly because we have 300 Taipan 4.9's sold since 1988 and you can see them pop up in race results everywhere in the world, their australian national seeing as much as 50 boats; how come that even with 250 Spitfires sold (since 1998) we only see them in results in France and the UK with about 30 boats at their largest event (Europeans in UK).

But real production numbers are hard to get by, but there is a trick to accurately make an estimate of their real numbers. Just note down all the sailnumbers you ever see in any race results. Also note down how many times the same sailnumber is encountered. The most accurate estimate of the number sold is then the highest sailnumber * (1 + 1/number of different sailnumbers encountered).

This trick was used to estimate enemy tanks, planes and artillery in WW2 and proved so accurate and succesful that modern wapon systems are no longer produced with nice sequencial serial numbers.

This method falls down when the sailnumbers are not started at 1 or when sailnumbers are passed over. Both tricks are often used by sailboat builders. However here is where the count of the encountering the same sailnumber comes in. Basically, it is possible to modify the above method to still produce accurate results even when sailnumbers are passed over. It is more complex but it can be done.

So if we really want to know the number of Spitfires sold then we can find out. I haven't done this in detail myself yet, but at first glance I come out at about 150 boats, which to me seems realistic for the combined market of UK and France knowing that the Spitfire is NOT a very popular boat like the F18. But if desired we can do the in depth analysis.

I find it very hard to believe that Boulogne doesn't know about the F16's. He must as his Dutch agent knows me well personally and is absolutely aware of the F16's. Surely the topic has come up between them. I even seem to recall the F16's have been discussed between them. I'm in the dark about Mattia though. I fear Boulogne and Mattia are not easily swayed towards the F16's. They are really held back by the light weight of the F16's.

The same reason why Nacra and Hobie are giving us 145 kg singlehanders. Ease of production and entlargement of the profit margin per boat. Most often by using the same parts as used on their F18's. An F16 must be designed as an F16 from the bottom up. It can not share components with other boats and be a succesful F16. Masts will be too heavy and too stiff, beams will be too heavy (for no real net stiffness gains), daggerboards and rudder setups will be ludicroudly overweight. F18 has a minimum weight for the daggerboard of 3 kg per single board for example. F16 boards PER PAIR are between 3.6 and 3.8 kg. F16 stocks are 0.4 kg where the F18 stocks are typically a few kg per stock.

The Viper F16 at the global challenge was measured at 137 kg including repairs and such. On the daggerboards, rudders, stocks and beams already 12 kg in total could have been saved. Greg practically said so himself. He had to used some Capricorn parts as the Viper parts were not all available.

Having 145 kg 16 foot boats is not necessary from a technical point of view even when using cheap basic materials like glass, aluminium and vinylester resin. Of course with kevlar, carbon and epoxy more can be done. Such heavy weights are as good as always inspired by economic considerations. Basically any 16 foot boat with spi over 125 kg is heavier because of those reasons. 107 kg is light for a 16 footer and it takes some effort to get there but beyond 125 kg even you and I could do it. Remember my homebuild Taipan F16 as build from 4 mm ply is 121.8 kg ready to sail in 2-up attire ! Lighter homebuild Taipans have been made by amateur builders all the way down to 105 kg (= excl. 5 kg for spinnaker package). So my boat is by no means special.

I feel the business rational is that they feel that they can corner the French market before the F16 class does, which is likely, and then not be forced to spend more effort in designing a proper racing catamaran like the F16's. For all other intents and purposes the F104 is identical to the F16 class. Same concepts of 1-up / 2-up and targetting the lighter F18 crews as well as the more recreational racers who switch roles often.

Wouter

Wouter, I think you just need to register in the

yahoo group

to post on the french forum. After that you should be able to post.

I read that some of you are thinking about coming at the next eurocat, in carnac. That is shurely a good idea! The best would be to have 20 F16 or more to get your own separate regatta... Or maybe ask the comittee to race with F18!?

French sailors just don't know F16 exists, and they pay more attention to boats that they can see! And for now, there is no F16 in france vs a significant number of spitfire (and other F104)! Even if I say in the french forum that F16 is great (and I will not do that too often otherwise people will get bored...), people want to see the boat and her performance with their own eyes!
Yves loday has done several regattas with his new spitfire to advertise it! It seems to me that there is a need of a good F16 crew racing regularly in France...

Actually, I'm amazed that for now, in the F16 class, nobody has tried to bring the F16 in France. I maybe wrong, but isn't France one of the biggest sport catamaran market???

Last thing, there is a rumor that nacra will build a F104 in the near futur... Nacra is pretty popular now, because of the good result of their F18 infusion. If they go to F104 too... Well, bad news for the F16, at least in france...
It's time to show your muscles F16 class!

tom.

There is also the rumour that the Viper F16 is really a F104; so I don't trust rumours very much.

With regard to the Nacra F104, that will basically be the Inter 17 with a jib and a crew of two.

They have been trying that concept on and off over the last 5 years. Actually that was the way the Inter-17 was born in australia in 1998 I believe as a sloop doublehander. Nothing new there.

The only new thing is now that is yet another version of the Inter 17 that is slightly different than all the versions that went before it.

Nacra F17/F104 : http://www.nacraeurope.com/nacra17.php

length : 5.25 mtr.
width : 2.50 mtr
mast height : 8.60 mtr (using the aluminium infusion wing mast, instead of the US carbon mast)
mainsail area : 15.5 sq. mtr.
mainsail luff : about 8.1 mtr
jib area : 3.50 sq. mtr.
jib luff : 5.0 mtr
Asym. spinnaker : 19 sq. mtr.
weight : 140 kg ex. spi package ex. jib package and ex. additional weight of alu mast => 150 kg

These specs can be found of the nacra Europe webpages and past experiments, like the old EU sloop version of the Inter 17. It replaces the US carbon mast with the infusion aluminium mast. Of course the daggerboards, beams, rudders and blocks all come of the Nacra's F18 designs.

And they probably try to ship the production of the hulls of to Australia or Asia.

Let me see ...

AUS I-17, EU I-17, US I-17R, EU I-17XL, US F17, EU I-17/F104

So that makes it the 6th different version of the (strict One-Design) Inter-17 in about 9 years time.

Wouter

It has been tried but the French market is very hard to get into. Mostly they want to buy locally, just as the Americans do. So you are left with the problem that in order to get a local agent or builder you must have a viable class going on locally, but to have viable class going on locally you need a local agent or builder. How do solve such a

chicken and egg

problem ?

This is compounded by the fact that the F16 class is a straight up challenge to designers and builders. It is simply alot easier to produce 150 kg F104's then 107 kg F16's. Mostly because one can use most major parts of the existing F18 models and then pour cement in the hulls to get up to weight. <img src=

alt=

/>

With the F18 class people have gotten a different perspective of weight; they feel that a 150 kg F104 is lightweight when as far back as 3 decades ago all beach catamarans were 150 kg or lighter. The best counterexample is the Nacra 5.2 because it shares the same dimensions as the Hobie FX-one and Nacra Inter-17 as well a the BCM evolution. Same sail area and rig height, same length hulls and also 150 kg. I think the Nacra 5.2 was designed in the late 70's.

And there you have all the

evolution

over the past 30 years; summerized in one single item

adding a spinnaker

Anyway back to topic.

What we really need is not so much 20 boats at Carnac (that will be difficult as all must come from afar) but have the best F16 sailors at Carnac. I'm thinking about :

Our World champion Hans
About Gill and Kathleen (They are seriously fast)
About John Pierce making a slam dunk on his newest Stealth
About Greg or Remco showing of their 125 kg Viper.

Crews like that, crews that will sail in front of the fleet. There is no point in having me there, giving a hurry up to the tail enders ! <img src=

alt=

/>

Especially not when hot shots like Loday, Boulogne and the Spit guys are showing their stuff in the C1 class.

Wouter

Speaking of the F-17, Peter Vink had some good results last weekend at Round Tiengemeten (23rd place out of 139 competitors).

Since he runs Performance Sails maybe he was testing a new mainsail?
Link to results.
Link to Pictures.

I am not sure why you don't believe the figures when it come to Spitfire numbers.
Builders in the UK have almost always numbered their boats in sequence. Unlike Hobie, they do not supply a new sail number with every mainsail sold, making it look like there are a lot more boats than the actual figure. I can only speak from my experience with the Dart and Spitfire builders. The Dart 18 started at 1 and is now just below 8000. Although I believe that the Dart 16 may have started at 1600.
In March 2001 we bought Spitfire 011, in 2002 we bought 044, in 2003 we bought 080, in 2006 we bought 167.
At Eurocat in April this year 190 and 191 sailed.
I am quite confident that the number is now over 200. I could phone Henry White, who has taken over running the UK side of Loday White from Reg, and ask him the latest number, but I don't need to know at present. In fact anyone could phone and ask what sail number they would get if they were buying a Spitfire.

It is good to see the Blades and other F16s building in numbers, because I believe that not everyone who wants a performance cat needs to buy the heavier F18.

BUT ! Dont go back to the old way of knocking everything else on the market <img src=

alt=

/>

I don't do recounts every month so it seems that my estimate of 150 Spitfires isn't too far of the mark. As a result I don't feel that I'm knocking the Spitfire design.

The claim of 250 boats was actually given to me in, I think, late 2005.

Going on your data I guess I was right not to believe that claim.

Just under 200 is what I would consider believable. From what I know from other builders, modest designs from small builders typically sell on average around 25 boats a year if they are succesful. That is what the individual F16 builders are doing as well. I think VWM is now at 45 boats since their launch in januari 2005, this is on average 18 boats a year and that does includes the year of the lauch were it is very hard to sell more then a handful of boats. AHPC sold on average 20 Taipan 4.9's ever since the year after the first year when the boat was launched.

For the Spitfires this rule of thumb would come out at :

march 2001 till september 2007 = 6 and half years a 25 boats a year = 163 boats.

March 2001 boat 011 to september 2007 boat 191 => 180 boats in 6 and halve years = 30 boats a year on average.

Seems both these principles are in agreement with eachother.

Wouter

Just thinking out loud here... I think we all see the benefit in having our best sailors at these kinds of events, but obviously wouldn't want folks to feel any kind of pressure to go to the expense of traveling just for the sake of promoting the class. Perhaps the Global Challenge or Nations Cup organizers could set aside some modest amount of money to provide a

token of appreciation

to be offered to the top finishers in these events who subsequently attend one of some predetermined set of suitably prominent regattas.

So just as an illustration, say you had two of these

awards

available at the recent GC, they could be offered to Hans (1st) and John/Paul (2nd) to attend Carnac (for example), but if (say) one of those wasn't able to go the offer would be made available to Geert (3rd), etc...

For sure F16 needs some good results to get it happening.

at the RTG race on the weekend Pete on the F17 Nacra was first single hander and 23rd overall and he had a swim too...

The best F16 was in 111th place..

Pete was testing the new version of the F17 which has the Infusion mast section and same size sails as the older F17. the boat performed really well and is proably a good indicator that light weight is not so important to performance...

Either this claim is incorrect or the Nacra team has mistakenly provided the wrong Texel Handicap number to the RC.

The F17 (which is known as the Inter-17R in the Texel handicap system) has a rating of 103 and not 107 as used in the results.

Call me a Wouter, but I think that the fact that Peter Vink was sailing the boat had far more to do with the final result (next to the wrong handicap) then any

weight relation

. With due respect to the guy singlehanding his rather new F16, no real F16 presence was at the Round Tiengemeente this year. Looking over the singlehander results we note that no 1-up sailors of any fame participated. No Saarberg (A-cat), Lambrie (A-cat) Zwitser (FX-one) or Klok (F16) were there. Only these sailors can be considered to be of a comparable skill level to mr. Vink.

Looking over the singlehander results it is clear that they are a mess.

The first singlehander across the finishline was however a 18 square. The 3rd place holder sailing on a FX-one reached the finish 20 minutes after mr. Vink ! That is a big gap, especially since both boats weight the same. The other Inter-17's in the race, a plain EU inter-17 and an Inter-17XL, were 103rd and 128th and came in respectively 35 min and 66 min behind mr. Vink. Both were soundly beaten by the F16 singlehander as well who came in 22 min behind Vink but beat the other Inter-17's by 13 min and 44 minutes, he was 3 min behind the lead FX-one (after 3 and halve hours racing). A prindle 15 beats a Dart 18 1-up on elapsed time and the dart 18 1-up beats the Inter - 17 XL which in turn is also beaten by the slower rated old EU inter-17. It seems the slower boats are actually ahead of the faster boats on elapsed time ! But how can that be if they are slower boats ? My guess is wild differing sailor skills, with the average level very low so major mistake are made frequently. Either that or the winds were very unpredictable and many flipped one of more times. You would known.

But you were quite fast Andrew, 2nd in the F18 class and a fat 20 minutes ahead of Vink on the line (40 min on the FX-one and 30 min on handicap on the FX-one). Even after handicap calculations you are 10 minutes ahead of mr. Vink and 17 min. ahead if we use the correct F17 handicap of 103. Maybe this is an indication that the F17 is better off at 180 kg and a crew of 2 ? <img src=

alt=

/> (joke !)

But seriously though, I think mr. Vink is first in the singlehander class because the single hander class wasn't much of a fleet.

Wouter

Yes but can you right it solo? <img src=

alt=

/>

I will be going to Carnac as it's one of the biggest Cat Regattas in the World. I will also be competing against the some of the fastest sailors in the World who probably race more often in one month than I do in a year. Therefore, my results aren't the reason for entering. I am going for the enjoyment!!!! and you never know I could even pick up some tips from the faster sailors. This is one of the assets of sailing, I can turn up at an event and race amongst the sports elite. When others look at my results they can draw any conclusions they wish, so long as I sail to the best of my abilities I will be more than happy. If people think this is bad marketing for the F16 Class then I feel sorry for them and they would be wise to remember there's no such thing as bad publicity.

Ain't that the truth !

I'm just hoping a few F16 hot shots will get out. It is not a biggy if they don't, but I'll welcome it if they do.

I think it is clear the competition will be trying to get theirs out in the likes of Yves Loday, Bob Curry and now Peter Vink. Maybe some comparable name like Booth will do the FX-one for Hobie ? Basically they are all trying to have the boats look good by getting a good sailor to sail it and then claim that no performance loses are incurred by being significantly heavier or using sub-optimal parts of other designs which are unlike a true singlehander, like the F18 parts.

Wouter

Mark,

I hope you enjoy yourself while flying the flag.

Regards,
Phill

BTW:- we should get an F16 flag for events like this although I really love your Welsh Dragon.

Just a quick pic of you and your Stealth on fire.

I think it would be hard to claim that F18 Infusion parts are inferior to whats currently being used in the fleet...

The mast is very nice, and suits a singlehander really well (hounds are lower etc), the rest of the boat is the same, very well balanced and it works well so why change it for the sake of it?

With regard to the weight issue, F16 will have to decide where it wants to be in 5 years and weight will be a big part of that future. I am more aware than most about what is possible regarding building light boats and the performance of said boats, but commercial reality has to be there too...

Also you need to get more boats to events to make an impact, perhaps Wouter if you spent more time sailing at these events rather than disecting the time sheets in the week after they are run you might be more productive in promoting the class.

I am off to Quiberon this weekend for the Catagolfe regatta with about 260 entries I believe, how many F16's will be making the trip?....

They are inferiour in the way that a boeing 707 jet engine is inferiour when used on a Cessna 4 seater. Either may be fine products in their own right but combining the two in one setup is not. Look for the allowance, in the Inter-17R class rules, to have owners cut down their (F18) daggerboards to 70% to understand what I mean exactly.

I will be a right fool if I lay down 14.500 grant only to be allowed to cut down my spanking new daggerboards to admitted superior dimensions myself.

Lets turn this question around. Why pay the same amount for the design composed out of F18 scraps when you can also have the real optimized thing ?

Why is it that that a bunch of amateurs like the F16 sailors of the first hour can make such a optimized craft economically viable where professionals can't.

Why is economic viability here not used as an explanation but as an excuse ?

And I'll go one step further. I'll tell you where the F16 wants to be in 5 years time. Right at that

challenging

weight of 107 kg while costing the same or less then the

professional

alternatives.

That low weight is not an issue for us, rather it is what sets us

amateurs

apart from the

professionals

!

We are not seeing F17, F104 and other copy-cat operations for nothing. Who would have thought 6 years ago that three complete amateurs, all mediocre sailors without a company, an agent network or any serious resources could achieve economic viability of a superiorly designed craft in every respect were the other builders could not.

What is it that we are doing right ?

Worse still, I think it is actually you who has it the wrong way around. Your pals are getting solidly beating at designing and the marketing game by a bunch of resourceless amateurs who happen to also be mediocre sailors. What will happen when more talented sailors get on board ? No amount of

hot shot

sailing is going to push that dark cloud of the horizon.

Lets also see what you guys have here ? Guys like Bob Curry, Tom Thurlington, Tony Mels and even you are actually coming to the F16 forum to discuss/promote boats like the I-17's and FX-one's. (and they remain welcome to do so) That would certainly not happen if F16's weren't going somewhere. Inter-17's are now F17's and Spitfires/FX-one's are now F104's, their rule sets converging on the same principles encoded in the F16 rules over 6 years ago. Are you beginning to see a trend here ? Lets continue.

F16 has had World Championship with 13 participants from nations as far apart as USA, Europe and Australia. F16 in the past week scored both a 1st and 2nd place overall in the USA and a 2nd place overall in Australia.

FX-one just had their European championships with 4 boats attending. Inter-17 held their US nationals in juli at the single Michigan sailing club that contains 15 boats, 2 more came from other parts of US. Their nationals at Pensacola (not near to that 15 boat club) drew 3 boats 2 years ago.

Inter-17 outside of the US is basically mister Peter Vink at 23rd place on saterday 30 september 2007. And where were the Inter-17's last year when 7 F16 crews had agreed to meet eachother at the Round Tiengemeente race ?

I think we may need to face a harsh truth here.

Let me explain be inverting your own statement.

Be a brave person and tell us all here at this public forum how many nacra I-17's will be racing at Catagolfe this weekend out of those 260 participants. You may include any of the 6 different versions in existance.

...

Forgive me for saying so but you got absolutely nothing and you know it.

Wouter

handicap has been recalculated and I'm just waiting for my web master to update the website,.

I've been busier than a busy thing with some other sailing issues over the last few days (no prizes for guessing what).

Hopefully the website will be updated soon.

And yes, Wouter is correct, it was an inherited problem from when I took over; I did go thru all the ratings, but I missed this one (very unfortunate with my boat of choice, luckly I've not won anything on the old handicpa so I don't need to give any prizes back).

If anyone spots any other errors (some of the data we have is 10 years old); Please email me via the website.

The observant among you may have noticed that a few of the Hobie ratings have changed (see news on www.schrs.com)

Many thanks for your direct and timely responses in correcting this long standing error.

I appreciate it.

Now, the only error left are the US F16 handicaps ! <img src=

alt=

/>

Wouter

Excellent response Wouter, well thought out, to the point, a clear logical presentation of the facts. I love your last line...it's a classic

You got absolutely nothing and you know it.

Best Regards,
Bob

I would rock up.. Have an issue with transport.. Like 2500 miles issue ... care to send a jet?

Ok I accept that commercial reality is the large builders aren't as professional as the smaller.. They have an inability to produce light strong well engineered boats.. But a few homebuilders and designers seem to be able to do it with ease..

Sure can, Got it straight back up, good thing with the Infusion mast is its light and has a lot of volume so there is no chance of the boat inverting.