I was able to go out of Claremont ramp at Long Beach w/ John Dudash Friday, 3-28. It was a perfect day, sunny, typical sea breeze, maybe a little light -puffs to 12+kts. Conditions were probably best for an F16. The boat is beautiful, well made and a pleasure to sail. It is basically as described in various posts by experienced sailors. Under conditions sailed, 16'+ length never seemed inadequate. We slightly stuffed a bow slightly once and it behaved well.
Congratulations to Phill, Wouter, et al on working out a world class boat class that is a pleasure to sail, competes across a broad spectrum of conditions, i.e. 1 or 2 crew, lake/ocean, etc. From catsailing and landsailing for 20 years I would say you can't get more boat for your money, and is user friendly for recreational sailor to racer.
I feel compelled to write in behalf of the boat and class about 2 arguments proposed and expanded at great length by those that should be experienced enough to know better and may discourage those that are interested from getting an outstanding craft that will be competitive for a long time.
The rules are well written and allow improvements to the boat and class without outdating present craft. No sensible sailor is going to pay two to ten times as much to build a boat out of exotics to get it down to absolute minimum weight for the least possible competitive edge that money could buy. And if I wanted to do build it down to the minimum weight for my own convenience, I can. The class would most likely benefit if some members did, because it would easily be shown that the small amount of weight saved did not make them appreciably faster (but it might make the boat better handling). The worst case would be if a rock star came in with a 'super boat' and cleaned up. We instinctively look at the boat as the reason for the speed, but as has been explained on these forums, it is the sailor and the sails that make the boat faster than its class competitors. A rock star would know that but use his sponsorship and reputation to sell boats or kill the class. This is just like 'more flow through the slot', it is quicksand that sucks in newbies and some not so newbies and just refuses to go away.
John Simpkins met with us and rigged his Marstrom A, then broke a rudder latch as soon as he pushed off. So I didn't get to try the 'ocean liner' of A cats. It appeared that the 2 boats have similar hull volumes, giving the shorter boat a bit more freeboard. I love freeboard. It appears that no one is willing to sail the Marstrom with a crew of 2 except Hakan, and w/ John Simpkins equipment failure, all I have been able to do is confirm the other reviews of the Blade for myself.
I may eventually get an F16, but I came away with the sense that if this can be done with a 16' boat, that properly optimized, an 18' could handle/perform like a Tornado. Yeah, it would cost a bit more, but I can't take it with me.
Best wishes to a class that is for well designed boats and sailors, not for manufacturers and rock stars. Steve Blevins
Thanks Steve.
I believe we have met Steve...carbon masts ?...Ivanpauh, Nv.?
I no longer Land-Sail, but still building and sailing Sea Sprays..Did you make the Am. Cup this year ?
Probably was me. You have the advantage of me,1943. I did not attend the AC, Friday was the last day. When I went by Saturday, I was told it was the least wind they've had. Steve
I agree with Steve about the Blade.
After 3 months of looking at my Blade in the back yard, I was finally was able to get it out for the first time during Spring Fever. Even with no previous experience sailing the boat, it was very predictable on all points of sail. I was able to sail the boat in a wide variety of conditions during the regatta and was very pleased with the performance of the boat. I was able to single hand the boat without any problems and was very pleased how well the boat reacted weight placement. The boat was also very easy to right without assistance.
The fellow Blade/F16 sailors were the best part of the experience. Terry gave me tips on how to step the mast and rig the boat alone. Joanne was crawling around under the boat to show me how to rig the chute. Oley helped me through a difficult halyard issue. I even got a free t shirt out of the deal. If you are looking for a class with friendly people and top notch boats then look no further than the F16.
Cheers,
Neville
Steve,
Glad to hear you got out on the Blade--and you won't find a nicer guy to sail with than John D.
I'll be at Bear Lake mid July if you want to sail the Taipan F16
Rgds,
Eric
As you may see on another thread, my F16 questions have been pretty much answered to my satisfaction..... However I respectfully disagree with the below points.
The sailor is the most important factor and good sails as opposed to blown out sails will make a bigger difference then several kgs in boat or crew weight........ however platform weight, crew weight and weight aloft is also a very important aspect with regards to putting together a competitive combination as with bullet proofing your boat. This has been both mine and others observations in the F18 and Tornado fleets where boats and sailor skills are very close in performance (and the skill level is very high) Observations by guys at the top of the fleet to the mid fleet and lower. If anyone doubts it, I would suggest discussing this with the more knowledgeable sailors from the most competitive classes.
Posted in open forum by myself
I have raced my F18 carrying an extra 18kg of crew weight onboard and watched this happen many times. Then when I am sailing at min weight, the disadvantage is gone and you are doing likewise to the heavier boats.
Upwind also, the heavy boat will not accelerate off the line like the lighter boats (The most important part of the race) and it will not be able to sail with as much height or speed............
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Boat handeling will cost you more boat lenghts then an extra few kgs and training will pay bigger dividense than removing a few kgs from your boat..... However, whether my boat or crew weight is on min weight or not, I will still put work into boat handeling.
Ensuring my boat and crew weight is at min weight, weight aloft is reduced and boat is sound for the job are esential ingredients for boat preperation for any event.
I will take the most competitive platform out there as I do not want to disadvantage myself from the start. Then I would work on my sailing skills to futher my chances.
Yes, enhancing ones sailing skills is much more important, however going into an event without best preparing your boat is not going to help either.
By the way..... I am looking forward to a test sail on the Blade
Neville,
I found the same thing last year at the Global Challenge at Zandvoort. We had people from all around the world and all of them were great to be around. With several days of the regatta blown out we all spent a lot of time together.
When each day was over we hit the town together and had a great time.
I hope the class continues to attract great people.
After all we are not sailing for sheep stations- so apart from the sailing it's the people and the party that really make the class.
Can't wait for a Global Challenge in the USA.
Regards,
Phill
Stephen,
You are using a strawman type of argument now.
Nobody is saying that things like weight aloft aren't important, just that the differences in such matters between a current new F16's and a mythical exotic F16 for 2 times the investment is too small to justify that extra money in the way of performance gains.
To give you an example. The Taipan 4.9 platforms as delivered by AHPC flexed 68 mm in the
walking over waves
manner measured by the Phill Brander method. The prototype Blade (timber 80x2 alu beams)flexed 43 mm. The new Stealths and Euro Blade F16 flex below 25 mm with the lowest that was measured now being at 15 mm. The F18's (Hobie, Tiger) that were measured by the same method and came in a 90-95 mm and this number is still more then the range of new F16's when it is devided by 2 in order to equalize the weights of both platforms in the test. The A-cats (un equalized for weight !) with glued in carbon beams are about 10-15 mm. When corrected the are about 25 mm. Therefor F16's are already pretty maxed out in this sense. Alot of development has already been done over the last 6 years. Now I'm sure that the Capricorn F18 flexes very little but indeed it does appear that the range over flexing in the F18 class is still very wide, maybe 90-95 for the standard Hobie and Nacra products and 50 mm for the Cap ? 40-45 mm difference in flexing is alot in comparison, the range between F16's is only halve that.
Also how much more performance gain can be had by reducing an already very low flexing of an F16 platform ? This is very much a case of diminishing returns. Yes the drop from 68 mm (Taipan 4.9) to say 40 mm (first series of Blades) is significant but the drop from 40 to 15 much less so.
I sometimes feel that people look to much to the internet to learn about the F16 class and assume that all that is found there is all that there is too the F16 class. This way they overlook the fact that some very knowlegdeable people are working on the background. People with over 25 years experience in building, repairing and selling (commercial) catamarans like the A-cats. Alot of their knowlegde goes into the newer F16's. I'm not one of those people and indeed my set of tasks were of a different kind.
The general assumption made by some that the F16's are far from optimized is simply wrong. The facts of the situation do not support such a believe.
I gave here on example but for pretty much each area we can hold the same argument.
Wouter
Steve,
What kind of landyacht class are you sailing in ?
And thanks alot for that rave review. I'm very impressed with the fact that you were so impressed with the boat ! <img src=
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Wouter
Wouter.... Forget the F16. I am not discussing a particular boat here but general boat preperation be it an F16, F18 or a Hobie 16.
I am expressing the importance in a very competitive fleet off maintaining target boat and crew weight plus boat reliability (ie everything from sheets, lines, pullies and systems).
It is very important (in a competitive fleet) and to dismiss this is leading those who come here to learn something 'up the garden path'. Perhaps you should engage in competitive racing and learn the importance off this.
As for flexing..... Where the @#$% did that come from. I never mentioned the flexing issue here however platform stiffness is also very important and doing everything you can to ensure the platform you are racing is as stiff as possible is also and important factor.
By the way, a heavy boat will always flex more than a light boat. You are an engineer, so I am sure I dodn't have to explain it to you.
Stephen,
Let forget about this.
Wouter
Wouter,
Super glue your hands to your wienerschnitzel and stop typing.
Ohh, that's nice.
Wouter
Thanks for your review Steve. Had a great time sailing with you. BTW, that vibration we were feeling was from a slightly loose nut on the rudder pivot bolt.
For those of you in, or visiting SoCal and wanting to see what the F16 and Blade are about, I'm always willing to accomodate when possible. You meet the nicest people sailing. <img src=
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These are great boats, just wish I could get the best out of them. <img src=
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John
Hey - Mr. Corks Float.....those type of comments are totally uncalled for regardless of what you think of a person.
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