Cost of conversion

You could do it in stages. The self tacker is nice and makes gybing very fast but not strictly necessary.

If you had one to copy off, i'm sure you could save a few dollars however the AHPC snuffer/bag setup seems to work very well, as do their spi's.

Michael

I'd buy the snuffer from AHPC. But if I had another boat to copy from I'd source all the other spin components wherever I could get the best deal (including AHPC).

For the self-tacker though, as Mike says, find another boat to copy from (even if it's not a Taipan and with reasonable skills, a garage/workshop and basic tools it should be possible to make a copy after buying the components wherever. Bending the track is the most difficult bit and that can be done on a workbench using a piece of 2x4 cut to a slightly tighter radius than required plus some soft jawed carpenter's clamps.

Overall it could save you several hundred.

Price sounds about right considering the 2 new sails in the package. Would not save much if you sourced the parts yourself and with AHPC kit you know you have a quality product that will work first time and last.

I $$$ are an issue, do it in stages ie kite first.

Prices don't sound outlandish, it's just an expensive conversion. My Self Tacker Conversion for my I-20 cost $400 alone for the Track and jib car & a Jibsheet. Add the cost of a jib in there. and it is about the same. Price out the parts of your Spin conversion. Spinnaker is the biggie, I'd buy a used one to learn with, you will thank me later. Save you some start up costs and an expensive lesson when you shred your kite on some fitting you forgot to tape. Poles are cheap if you look around. Think I would do one conversion at the time. Most jibs can be converted to self tackers just by changing the tack plate.
Go to someone's boat that's setup like you want and photograph the setup from every angle, include a tape measure in the picture, then take some more pictures and you Might have enough info to do it right.
Good luck and keep us informed.
CARY

As for the spin, here is something I wrote on the Mystere forum...

I've wanted to add a spin to my Mystere 5.0XL for a long time (so I can be grandfathered into F16 ). I want a modern cut, mid-pole snuffed rig, and I want it really, really cheap (read "used"). I wrote to every cat forum and emailed guys from South Africa, Singapore, Australia and Sweden. I got lots of advice, offers on older big-bellies, several too big rigs, several too small, and then more advice... no luck. None of the F16 people are ready to part with spins or hoops. F18 spins are too big for me solo.

Here's the best deal I've found. AHPC will sell a new spin for about $825 AUS and the hoop and sock for $350 or so (up from $260 last year so don't wait!). HOWEVER, the exchange rate is about 75 US cents buying an AUS dollar...do the math. Pretty cheap for new stuff and great designs. Shipping on the pole is HUGE so use a cheap Sunfish spar (find a broken one) for the pole and cut it any length you like. The hoop will fit perfectly. All of this fits in a small box so shipping from OZ is pretty cheap as well.

I've been picking up blocks from EBay cheap for over a year. How about a pair of new Carbo Ratchomatic for $25! I also bought a couple of Ronstan Smarts for $10 each. (Chant along with me..."EEE, Bay! EEE, Bay! EEE Bay!)

OK, now I need less than a $1000 to spin it up. The wifely unit pauses, thinks and says (again)..."Are you NUTS?"

Santa, oh SANTA!!! I been good...really!

I suspect that the standard Taipan 4.9 jib sail will be hard to modify to a selftacking jib by recutting. I fear you will indeed need to buy a new jib sail to get it right. The overlap of the old jib is just too much. If you try recutting that I think you will run into trouble with the draft that is induced by the seams.

Wouter

Speekfreak,

I'm currently running a 100 % Goodall Yacht Sails (GYS) setup on my own modified Taipan F16.

I have an GYS alu snuffer ring with sock (2004) and I'm very happy with that. I bought an 40 mmx 2 mm (couldn't get 1.6 mm) alu pole locally for 30 Euro's = 50 Aus and build up my own spi pole. This is actually quite easy.

I have a 2003 GYC spinnaker sail of plain cloth (no silicon or anything). It works well in all respects except for the part where the supplier made an error in the sheeting corner. I can't sheet my spi of the sidestay (as intended), but it flies well now that I'm sheeting it of the mainbeam. Others have ordered Goodall spis after me and they all seems to do fine. I guess my own spi was just unlucky.

I have the GYC selftacking rail and fasters but I'm not using any of the other GYC hardware with respect to the selftacking setup. I bought 2 RF65 360 swiveling cleats and a handful of small Harken blocks to finish the selftacking setup. My sheeting system is simpler then the GYC setup. It uses less blocks and therefor is cheaper. I can tell you however that you will need a (combined) 1:4 purchase on the jibsheet. 1:2 (as currently used on Taipan ) is not enough for a selftacker.

I have a 2004 Goodall selftacking jib, fully battened, make out of Contender Apen 06 Pentex cloth. It is holding up just fine. No problems with delamination or whatever. In the past I used to advice dacron for jibs as the flapping about damaged the jibs quickly, not so with a selftacking setup.

I'm very happy with the GYC snuffer setup and selftacking rail setup. Both are the lightweight and work well. Neither is clogging up with sand or dust (2 things that are vital where I keep my boat). The snuffer system works well with even untreated plain cloth spinnakers.

As spi halyard cleat I use a plain ronstan camcleat secured to my forebeam with 2 parker screws and it is doing fine. There are many more complex halyard cleat systems, but often these are alot more expensive for not much improvement in handling. I decided again a cleat fitted to the mast as I'm sailing solo with a spi often and in that mode you really can't go the leeward side of the boat and reach up the mast.

I can warmly advice both the AHPC snuffer setup and selftacking rail. When push comes to shoove than you can seriously consider finishing the rest of the setup yourself. Building up your own spi pole is very cheap and easy to do if you have a blind rivet tang. The same applies the remainder of the selftacking setup. This setup will require only : 2 additional 360 swivelcleats; 2 additional small turtle blocks and 2 small micro blocks and the sheetline. This will get you a cascading 4:1 setup where you can use a thin line in the final stage (less drag)

I think I paid in total

Goodall spi 825 Aus
Goodall jib 500 Aus
Snuffer ring/sock 260 Aus
Selftacking rail+ car + fasters 290 Aus (I seem to remember)
Spi pole 45 Aus
2 NEW version Ronstan smart ratchets = 150 Aus
2 cheap Riley autoratchets (for doubling effect on the spi sheet) = 70 Aus
2 ronstan RF65 = about 100 Aus
Then a handful of eyestraps and small blocks + line + some monel blind rivets and stainless steel parker screws = about 150 Aus

Total = about 2400 Aus (about 1500 Euro's or 1850 US$)

So I think AHPC quote on the total package is not to far off. But as always, if you are willing to invest time and look for the good deals then you can skimp some on it.

I did it by using the Riley ratchetblocks (although the Ronstan ones are indeed very smooth inn use) and by simplifying the jib sheeting system.

If you go with the complete AHPC package then you will have the advantage of not having to invest all that time and effort and just go sailing with the setup in two weeks time.

I don't think that you will be able to get a better deal elsewere unless you are willing to assemble of even build up your own setup. If you want to do that then I can give you all the specs for doing so.

Extra comments :

Doing the mods in stages is good advice, BUT if you can buy both the selftacking setup and spi setup at the same time without getting into a devorce with your wife then I would really consider that seriously.

Chances are that after flying the spi a few times that you don't ever want to let go of that. This is one reason why no F16 sailor is willing to sell of their spinnaker sails. BUT the standard Taipan 4.9 jib setup is not really comfortable when flying a spinnaker. This setup is to far back on the trampoline making it feel small and it leads to spaghetti on your trampoline. You will not believe what the selftacker does to the feel of the Taipan. The trampoline will feel alot more roomy then before, it will also be a clean trampoline and now both skipper and crew can move across at the same time. The selftacker itself is a breeze in handling. Especially under spinnaker. You can so much better handle the spi in gybes that gybing duels and gybing on shift are actually fun to do. Even upwind you'll love it as it will allow the crew to make other trim adjustments during the tacks and really focus on roll tacking.

The spi kit is a turbo charger and it will make the boat alot less dive happy even in very strong winds. For this reason the spi upgrade is your first choice. But the selftacker setup will turbocharge the spinnaker setup once more and improve on the general feel of the Taipan design. As in making it more roomy on the tramp and less cluttered with lines and blocks. Taking a novice friend alone is easy as cake as well. Actually, a few times I landed to let my crew of, because she had to get away early, to only push the boat out again with its sloop rig and did a hour more sailing singlehanded as a sloop in abouy 15 knots of wind. Just set-and-forget that jib to a general acceptable trim and sail the boat as if it was a cat rigged cat.

You will get by far the best improvement of the boat if you get both upgrades at the same time. And this means that even if you don't that you'll be wanting to upgrade to the selftacker soon anyway. Why put yourself through a transition period if you really can have both at the same time. Indeed, I strongly advice getting both upgrades simultaniously.

Wouter

Didn't realize the SelfTacker on the 4.9 was smaller than the original.
Not so on the I-20's and F-18's.
However, if you have to cut your jib down in size, I'm assuming you can add it back to the mainsail when you replace it.
Wouter, Do you have a picture of your Aluminum Snuffer hoop?
I would far prefer Aluminum over glass.
CARY

Cutting off the leech on a jib basically flatten it, move draft aft and open the leech. It will not be a good sail afterwards, quite the opposite. Re-cutting an overlapping jib in this way to fit to a selftacker is a bad idea in my opinion (I tried this on an old style Tornado overlapping jib, and it was just as poor as a 4 year old dacron jib with lots of use. Poor pointing, poor power and little acceleration).

A selftacking jib doesn't need to be smaller than an overlapping jib. You get to add some cloth at the bottom of the sail, so the sailarea can very well be the same. You also get a higher aspect ratio (less drag) with a selftacker due to the longer luff and leech. Unfortunately, the area you add is low down where there is less wind and more disturbance/turbulence.

If you are low on money, most of this can be buildt at home. We buildt our own alu snuffer (the best we have tried so far) and sock. I now have a better sewing machine and method for bending the pipe, so it would look better if I buildt a new one.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/download.php?Number=48738" alt="" />

The same for the track, you can either build it in carbon or bend a straight alu track. It would be a good idea to get a short wagon to run on the track if you decide to bend it yourself. Our track has been done this way, and instead of combining alu with stainless screws we buildt the fittings to the mainbeam with glassfibres and epoxy.

The Taipan has a rather large overlap between jib and mainsail. This is also part of the reason why the jib blocks are so far back in the trampoline.

Actually the Standard 4.9 jib size is 4.17 sq. mtr. with a 4.72 mtr luff length. My selftacking jib setup has a jib that is 3.45 sq.mtr. and has a luff length of 5.48 mtr. The leech length is 5.3 mtr. It could be a little bigger still but not beyond 3.5 sq. mtr. The Taipan mast to forestay triangle is not large enough to take more jib area. However, 3.5 sq.mtr with a 5.48 mtr luff is just dandy. Works well and I don't feel slow because of it at all.

That is because the I-20's and such have never sheeted the jibs from anywhere else then the forebeam. The Taipan however sheets it off the trampoline as most late 80's and early 90's designs.

Part of it, indeed, but not all of it.

Pretty much main + jib area Taipan = 14.6 + 4.17 = 18.77 sq.mtr.
main + job area F16 = 15 + 3.7 = 18.70 sq. mtr.

So the F16's have actually a little less sailarea than the standard Taipans. However the area is much better applied. For a boat that is sailed with a spinnaker that is.

Ohhh plenty , want them all ?

You should, alu rings are seriously better than glass ones.

Wouter

If building your own selftacking setup then do it like this :

It is the best way, the cheapest way, and the least complex to get a 1:4 purchase on your jib sheet (that you'll need)

In addition the bungee at the back keeps the sheet flat on the trampoline and keeps it tight while allowing the sheet to move fully to either hull when pulled.

Use 2 RF65 360 degrees cam cleats on the mainbeams and a large stainless steel line at the back of the trampoline. A large steel ring will run more smoothly then a block and is cheaper as well. Extra advantage a large diamter steel ring allows possible knots to pass while a block doesn't. The two blocks on the spi pole are best turtle blocks but could be a single doubleblock on a eyestrap as well. I have two single blocks there with some line, this works also but I had to be careful for them not to rub on eachother. All the other blocks are just simple microblocks.

The rail/car/fasteners I have is AHPC's see pic :

Wouter

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W:
What's that zigity stuff at the back of your diagram?
Looks like it's set to be tensioned as some sort of a jibsheet retainer, but it's a departure from the rest of the clean lines of the sketch.

It is a schematic way of identifying a bungee cord. (spring). In reality it is of course just a straight line, but then you won't recognise it easily in the drawings.

The bungee cord actually runs along side the rearbeam from inside one hull to just inside the opposite hull. The Stainless steel ring can slide along and/or extend the bungee cord forward.

I'm using a similar setup to keep my spi sheet tight on my trampoline. That one is just a foot in front of the rearbeam so it doesn't get stuck on the system for the jib sheet. It could however be the other way around.

Wouter

Look on the positive side, Just what can you buy for $3000 today?
I know that whenever I walk into a chandlery, I leave with a few fittings that I carry in one hand and I rarely get any change from $500.00. I bought a few metres of 4mm sheetline the other day, cost, $120.00. (Oh how I look back to the late seventies/early eighties when I could fit out an entire new cat, sails included for less than $500.00)

I like that idea of the bungee cord at the rear beem to keep things nice and clean on the tramp.

OR...you could run your jib sheet tails to the forward trap lines so the crew can get to them when trapped, really no need to run them all the way to the back of the boat, just more stuff to sit on! You will have the spin halyard and spin sheets run to the rear beam as well, along with the mainsheet and traveler...it can get messy back there!

That's my setup on the tiger. They just clip to the sidestays. They don't fall off they're always within reach.
Some are routing them back into the front crossbars with Bungee tensioning, it is neat and clean but if you have to adjust the jib when you're screaming, you have to shift your weight forward to do it. Same thing when you have to dump the jibsheet, you have to go after it and that doesn't work for me. Sounds like a recipie for a pitchpole.

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OR...you could run your jib sheet tails to the forward trap lines so the crew can get to them when trapped, really no need to run them all the way to the back of the boat, just more stuff to sit on! You will have the spin halyard and spin sheets run to the rear beam as well, along with the mainsheet and traveler...it can get messy back there!

That is how I do it now. I did this as well on my H16 days.

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Instead of running the jib sheets down the tramp.... Suck them into the front beam on bungies like you do for the downhaul. Cleans up the tramp a lot and puts the sheet where you want it..... At the crews feet on trap. If you want to see the best set up, just look at the Tornado boys. Any system on the spinaker conversion chances are they have tried all options and perfected it.

See attached the yellow sheet sucking into the front beam. This particular boat has the sheet go back inside the beam for a trick inturnal purchase set up.

I actually done that first but found quickly enough that that was not the way I want it on the Taipan F16. There are a few reasons for this.

-1- I hardly adjust the selftacking jib when going upwind. I found it to be far more efficient to have the crew work the mainsheet continiously while the skipper just steers and trims the maintraveller when needed. You must be aware thatr on a Taipan you can only go as far forward as the mainbeam when you are on a upwind leg !

-2- On a reach, where you do want to adjust the jib regulary, you can not go near the mainbeam when trapezing. The boat will go bow down and the skipper has to dump the main, thus slowing down the boat, in order to have the crew grap the jib sheet there. Also I found it even more advantagious on a reach to have the crew work the main then have the crew adjust the jib. More often then not the crew is doing the main while the skipper is doing the jib.

-3- Under spinnaker, the crew has his hands full on the spinnaker and can't really spare a hand for the jib. The skipper however has a hand free but is way behind the mainbeam, he can't reach that far.

-4- With the mainbeam setup if is difficult to have a continious jib sheet line, while in my setup you can have a continious jib sheet line. This means that no matter how often I tighten the jib on one tack and release it on the other I will never run out of sheet.

I'm finding that things that work on the tornado's, like this mainbeam jib sheet setup and the spinnaker halyard cleat on the mast are not always working as well on the F16's. I put this down to the fact that the Tornado has :

- longer hulls = more fore-aft stability
- larger jib in relation the the mainsail. = F16 jibs are less important in the bigger picture
- is always sailed doublehanded (try to operate that mast based spi halyard cleat when singlehanding !)
- Role seperation is different with most racing tornado crews (skipper is far more reserved for tactical role) and alot of tornado sailors (and F18 sailor) just copy the setup that the current champion has.

The setup that I have drawn, and that was tested after the mainbeam beam setup, has the advantages that it is very easy for the skipper to grap the jib sheet and do some fine adjustment when the crew is pumping the main sheet or a spinnaker sheet. It also has the advantage that in a blow you don't need to go forward and you can stay at the rear keeping the boat under full power. I personally really favour this setup over that wth the mainbeam.

Wouter

The system we have set up on the Tiger is to have a small double block tied to each of the shrouds. Both the downhaul and jib sheet go through this then down under the tramp. There is then a cat's cradle of elastic and pulleys under the tramp to take up the spare line. I crew on the Tiger, and normally do the mainsheet, but using this system I have the jib sheet and downhaul right by my feet and very easy to get to from either the trapeze or sat in the rear half of the boat.

I've set up a similar thing for the downhaul on my Stealth, and it works very nicely. I definitely prefer it here, rather than fed through the front beam.

It does take a bit of care to avoid ending up with all of the line on one side of the boat, but the way we have the pulleys set up maximises the amount of line under the boat, and if you sort it out before a race then you won't run out of line in a 3 or 4 lap race.

Paul

Paul,

Actually one of the reasons I run the jib sheet as shown in the previous drawing is to keep it well clear of the other control lines on board.

I run my downhaul like this :

The red lines are underneath my trampoline; the red line is a bunchy cord.

I run my spi halyard like this :

The dotted green line is underneath my trampoline. That black line is again a bungee cord.

If you superposition the three drawings then you see that all lines are clear of eachother and that nearly always the are run at an angle to eachother. This prevents the lines getting wrapped on eachother. All lines are tensioned by a mild force and al the control are accessible and operatable from everywhere on the trampoline by both a doublehanded crew and a singlehanded crew. The last is important to me as I do sail/race regulary solo as a cat-rig + spi or a sloop rig. I still race most often as a doublehander.

Also all the controls and the spi halyard can be operate from the lee side of the baot without the crew twisting himself in all sorts of funny shapes. When the leeward cleat of the jib gets unstuck then even the skipper can secured it from the luff hull while sitting against the rearbeam.

The only things that are more cumbersome is adjusting the jibsheet when both sailors are in the trapeze. Ofcourse hoisting and dousing the spi can't not be done from the trapeze. The rest is all accessible from the trapeze. Personally I don't care much for adjusting the jib from the trapeze. The cleat on the mainbeam is close enough to the side of the platform to reach for it when it is really needed, but I'm finding that I'm hardly ever adjusting the jib when double trapezing as in these strong winds. Proper mainsail trim and good coordination seems to be much more important than having adsolutely the best upwind trim.

I would love to hear about and see different solutions/setups and learn, so please can you make a drawing of your own setups ?

Wouter

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Hey Wouter... Give this a try.

Red line is the jib sheet and the broken red line is inside the beam. The blue line is shock cord.

The jib sheet comes threw the swivel cleats on the beam, throew pullies tied to the side stays and then goes inside the front beam where it goes threw a series of pullies pulled tought by shock cord attached to each pull and wrapping around the beam bolts inside the beam.

The idea is to keep the tramp a clean as possible. The kite sheet and main / traveler you can not avoid being on the tramp. All other sheets / controls should be keeped well clear.

Our F-18 and old T did not have any controls come out to the side stays before sucking into the beam. The crew on these boats trap behind the side stay and whilst the front beam is futher away on these boats, the crew had no trouble leaning down and pulling it out.

On the down wind don't worry about jib trim. Just release and go for it. The jib is so small it will make no difference if it is luffing.... The kite is doing all the work. Apparent changes that much also on the downwind that you would have to be continualy trimming the jib to keep the tell tails flying. Concentrating on doing this just distracts you from the main tasks at hand which is steering smooth, watching for gusts, other boats and going fast.

As you come into the bottom mark to drop the kite, the skipper should be on the wire with mainsheet. The crew just before the drop should trim the jib and rotation. After drop the crew should get on the wire, adjust the downhaul, minor adjustments to jib and rotation then take the main.

Wouter keeps referring to the Mainbeam which, as I read his posts must be the rear beam, since certainly you don't want to be forward of the Front Beam. With that in perspective, he puts his jibsheet where you have to go forward to adjust it. Fine upwind, but on a reach won't this shift your weight way too far forward and beg for the inevitable PP?(See my avatar, that's what happened on a screaming reach when I went forward for the jibsheet on the Nacra F-18 last year at Tradewinds)
I understand the Capricorn has the Downhaul and Rotator controls routed to the rear beam, where you need your ballast to be when it's honking under spi, even moreso solo. Would think this epecially important when dealing with a wingmasted boat. Anyone got a diagram of how they acomplish this? (BTW, the line art is tres' cool, guys & most helpful)

Wouter,

Your downhaul setup is actually almost exactly what we have for both jib and downhaul on the tiger. The only difference is that we don't have the block on the front beam - from the shroud, the lines go straight under the tramp.

Keeping the lines separate is not an issue. Both jib sheet and downhaul are suspended a little bit above the deck, but arrive at the shrouds at different angles. This makes grabbing either of them easy. Under the tramp, the two lines are anchored back to different points, which reduces the opportunity for interference. We're very pleased with the results.

Paul

We have had no troble accesing the jib sheet whilst reaching. Just grab it before you round the top mark and bring it back with you. You can do all this without leaving the wire. And whilst we do race courses where reaching is required, the Capricorn is an optimised windward leward boat.

As far as controls go on the Cap, the downhaul is accesable from just behind the front beam whislt rotation and jib is at the front beam. We plan to move our downhaul to the side stay simular to what I drew up for the jib. This is so I (skipper) can access it and play it in puffs.

Below is a pic of our Capricorn. The lines are a little long as we are asembling the new boat for the firat time and have not trimmer any at the time.

Red line - Down haul, swivel cleat can be seen at the edge where the tramp meets the front beam. The downhaul purchase is all under the tramp behind the front beam. Down haul soon to be detoured via a block tied to the side stay.

White and red line - jib sheet still to be trimmed

Blue line - Mast rotation, swivel cleats at base of mast.

Keep the tramp as clean as you can.

Photo below is Macca's Super Taipan. The Kite, main sheets and spin halyard still to be trimmed as this boat was still in assembly stage at the time.