I'm still looking for any evidence F16 exists in Europe. As there was no F16 division at Eurocat only the C1. So the boats entered as Vipers. There was a F18 division so I entered my boat as a F18 not a C2.
We are trying to get a F16 fleet at the North Sea Regatta and only need what I thought was a very small number of 10 entries but so far we have only 2 boats interested. Special thank you to Gill and Kathleen De Bruyne and their Falcon for trying to get F16 active.
The only evidence that the F16 fleet is active is on a forum but not on the water.
We want F16, as we like the concept but the F16 Class needs to help itself and become active.
If you can get a F16 division at a regatta we will race as F16. No question.
Sorry for the self promotion but you may be interested in the footage http:/
Cheers
Bundy
Over to you F16 (and this is really directed at the Euro guys). You have been talking on this forum for 7 or 8 years. Really time to start turning up at the big regattas if you want to be noticed and not known as an Internet class.
As stated above, the Vipers raced as Vipers, not F16s.
If a group of Mozzies with kites turn up, should they be rated with the F16 handicap?
Well done to the 2B team.
taipanfc and Bundy,
You're both right. The F16 class DOES need to now turn up at the 'big regattas' and race. As someone who, along with a few others, has done precisely that it's extremely frustrating that so few of us have done so.
It's yet another frustration to being currently unemployed - because, with an income, I'd be out there at Carnac, Texel, the Euros etc.
If you've done a few regattas (as I have in previous classes) it becomes addictive. You can't beat those big starts and courses, the sight of 100+ cats out there, the atmosphere and entertainment ashore, the whole social side of such an event is just fantastic and, of course, the opportunity to meet people from other classes and discuss the relative merits of the boats you sail.
God! I'm feeling even more pissed off now just thinking about it. Get out there guys and sail! - you'll love it!
As a sidenote, about 10 or so Cats from the Singapore fleet have shipped their boats to Korea for a regatta. So further promotion of F16 in Asia. Believe the shipping was subsidised by the regatta organisers, but still need to take the time off and get yourselves there.
I too have serious disagreements with the way the class is run in the EU, but I think we must see a few things in perspective here.
Gill and Kathleen are to only ones who attended as good as all F16 events over the years including three F16 World Championships (NL, UK, US) and several Eurocat events. None of the Viper sailors present in this Eurocat event showed up themselves for other F16 events with the exception of mr Sproat and ms Burke who did the GC 2008 I believe. Neither do I remember seeing them listed in the Eurocat 2008 event where several F16's had arranged to meet and showcase the boats. Remember those VOILE sailingmag articles that resulted from that ? The first two Global Challenges were held in EU and were well attended by crews not present at the Eurocat 2010 event. So if anybody is guilty of slacking on the (EU) job then we all are.
Personally I feel that our problem in the EU is lack of coordination and leadership; not lack of interest or owned boats.
Of course, some of the EU problems I have detailed myself on this forum a few months ago and I agree with everybody that it is time to really do something about it. Time for a new leader I say, so I renew my proposal for the GC (excluding Marcus) to complete their tenure in a few months and make way for fresh new blood.
Wouter
It appears that some of you have forgotten that sailing and racing is a hobby to practically all European F16 owners and to save you the hassle according to my dictionary a hobby is "an activity pursued in one's spare time for pleasure or relaxation.
Therefore, there should be no guilt attached to not entering a Regatta or even Club race. It is now being implied that we letting the Class down, now that is an extremely harsh and almost an insulting view to take.
This topic is probably worth a lot more discussion but I'm not going to keep on at this moment as I don't want to provoke more verbal nonsense from Wouter in regard to his current vendetta.
We want F16, as we like the concept but the F16 Class needs to help itself and become active.
Cheers
Bundy
Sorry Bundy but the above is such an arrogant statement, take Datchet for example, I think we have something like 10 F16's on site and some 3 -4 FX1's, not all are sailed together at the same time, but most regularly are sailed at some stage.
Only some are raced and most are sailed for pleasure and there lies the nub, not everyone races.
Most cannot afford to travel to Europe to participate and in fact very few want to travel just at the moment with the UK economy as it is. One only has to look at the GB participating crews at that race and they are all closely associated either by family associations to dealers / manufacturers ( sponsorship ) or are very active sailors wanting to improve against top sailors.
AHPC and B2 are the first F16 compliant manufacturer to start to throw money at marketing and getting the boats out there in the wider public view, and that is what has been so sorely missed in the F16 scheme of things. You will do well in my opinion as your boat will become the boat to own as most people will see the Viper in numbers regardless whether it is the best boat or not, that unfortunately is just the way of the marketing led world we live in.
But, and here is the big but, boats sold to owners wishing to race is only a tiny proportion of overall boats sold and yet you seem to equate F16 activity to those boats which race at large European based races held only a few times a year. You are on a hiding to nothing if that is the case. Yes you will sell a few boats in the first few years to racers but those will quickly dry up as those racers move on or already own a Viper.
The big sales numbers are the hidden owners such as at Datchet, who by choice do not travel, nor race, but enjoy sailing a F16 because it is light weight, fast and can handle both 1 or two up crews.
I'm racing. I will race twice a week all season. Solo on Wednesday evenings and with my youngest son on Saturdays. I may do some Sundays as well. Heck, I was racing every Sunday in February, breaking the ice to be able to remove the cover from the boat. So I resent the implication that to be
active in the class
you have to travel. I'm active in the class and I choose not to travel this year.
Traveling to regatta cost both money and time. Two things I would like to have more of <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> So it all boil down to choices. Back in November I made my choices for the year.
I could go to Carnac and its competitive fantastic racing. But as a club racer with a really old boat I would end up in the bottom 100. Money: the expense of crossing the channel, the regatta fee and the unreasonable price of 25cl of lager on the harbour. Time: That's a day travel each ways, and would require me to take some time off from work.
Or I could go to Bala cat open on the same week-end. Nice scenery as well, laid back racing, good social scene and a low £20 fee. Shorter trip as well, requiring less time driving. Guess where Paul went this year...
Or better yet, my choice this year, is to stay at my club and get my sons into sailing. Money: None. Time: 20 minutes drive. And I feel I support cat sailing more by being present at the club, getting my two sons on cats, giving rides to people and supporting other cat sailors by being there and helping them when needed.
The only traveling I'll do this year is to the ECPR and the Italian F16 Euro. The first one is a one day event that will allow me to finally do a long distance event on the sea, the second because it's a F16 only event and I like the idea of racing real time with a bunch of other boats.
And anyway there is no chance in hell I'll travel to a regatta I don't know about at least 6 months in advance. Especially if it involves ferry crossings. And I'm not the only one. You can't expect a lot of people to turn out for an event with a 4 or 5 weeks notice.
So why do you feel the need to criticize AHPC or 2B for not sailing under the F16 handicap???
As Bundy says, if the regatta has a fleet of F16 he will sail under the F16 handicap. If the regatta has a 104 fleet, they will probably sail under the 104 handicap. If neither exists (or god forbid, a VIPER fleet) they will sail under the VIPER handicap....
Isn’t that a positive attribute that a F16 compliant boat can be so versatile... It can be sailed 1 up, 2 up or under 3 different handicaps???
Wow, there is a result everybody could be happy with and still some manage to make a pissing contest out of it. I wonder if those still have fun when going sailing.
I think if you read carefully nobody is criticising the excellent F16 and Viper results at Eurocat.
In true Aussie baiting style. I am not sure how my statement on what is happening at Datchet can be misconstrued and linked to my criticism of not using the F16 handicap.
IMO you are either in or out, join forces with the other manufacturers in the F16 box rule ( after all they initially were around 125 kilos to begin with )or set up your own 1 design ( would you really want to be racing the other 104 compliant boats, they are not the most modern of designs and the racing would quickly die through lack of competition )
I'll be at the ECPR even if my shoulder is not proper fixed; might be wanting to find a good crew; do not fancy 60 odd miles with a still to be fixed shoulder....Will know more re shoulder in another couple of weeks!
Sorry for not spending more time talking about it on the internet, but I've been too busy getting out and sailing F16.
We're back from a great long weekend at the Bala open, I will be doing Rutland open in a fortnight, we'll both be doing the Gower Challenge the weekend after that, and we're looking at a couple of options for the weekend after that too.
I've done Eurocat before, but from a practical perspective it's a real pain as the UK and French bank holidays don't line up, which means Ann can't sail.
Paul
So why does the Euro rating system not have a single rating for all F16's like the US system does?
The two systems in use in Europe (Texel and SCHRS) are both measurement based, which means that you can take any boat, measure it, and get a rating. There are ratings for the formula boats such as F16 and F18, but those are based on a fully optimised boat, i.e. minimum weight, maximum sail area, maximum length/beam etc. The Viper is not minimum weight, so can race off a slower rating in a mixed event. In an F16 event, all boats race on the water.
Paul
Hi Joanna
The US Portsmouth rating is based on results of previous races. In Europe we have a choice but the two main Catamaran rating systems are calculated not on results but boat measurements. So because the Viper is 20+kg (44+lbs) heavier its rating isn't the same as the lighter F16 104-107kg (229-235lbs) min weight.
In reality its not that big a deal but sometimes this issue can bring out the worst in people.
Hi Paul
Looks like you posted your reply just as I started to draft mine.
How was Bala? It wasn't the warmest Spring Bank Holiday I can remember and having completed three races last Monday in some particularly choppy conditions with gusts in excess of 20knots I am still feeling pretty beaten up today. I did go looking on the Bala website but nothing has been published.
Whilst discussing websites looks like Zandvoort have applied for planning approval for a new Clubhouse, I wonder if there will be two changing rooms, one for either sex!
See you next week at The Rutland Cat Open
Mark
SCHRS has two ratings for F16's Texel has one rating
SCHRS
Formula 16 1.008
Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.982
Add in the Viper with a third rating...( 1.040??)
What do your competitors say about all of the ratings?
Fair? BS? or irrelevant... go play by yourself?
SCHRS
Formula 16 1.008
Formula 16 Cat Boat 0.982
Add in the Viper with a third rating...( 1.040??)
What do your competitors say about all of the ratings?
Fair? BS? or irrelevant... go play by yourself?
No probs when we sail as a class; first over the line wins.
The viper is carrying more lard; under SCHRS if they want to sail as a Viper (so not an F16) thay can claim the slower rating.
I can't rally speak for other competitors but having been brought in a small Club with various Classes I have come to accept Handicap Racing including the inherent pitfalls.
From a personal point of view I find the SCHRS rating system to be the most inaccurate. A single handed F16 is rarely faster than either a F18, A Class or 2up F16 and yet their given rating doesn't really reflect this. Hence, when I became the Clubs Sailing Captain we changed to the TEXEL Rating system which to my mind is as good as you can expect.
However, whilst racing at Open Meetings in the UK you just have to accept that they are probably going to be using SCHRS and for some reason people here tend to think they are obliged to do so but don't ask me why.
If you haven't got the numbers to make up a separate fleet at these Open Meetings you end up racing in the handicap fleet but at the end of the day you probably knew this before you committed and traveled and so when you arrive and compete I tend not to worry about the various Classes and race solely against the other F16's, especially on the first day and depending on ones results compared to the other Classes the same happens during the following races.
So in essence I would imagine the answer to your question would be a mixture of all your suggestions, Fair, Irrelevant and go play by yourself. It's just up to the given individual how much emphasis or importance is given to each one.
So what rating did the Spitfires use?
BTW - What was the crew weight for the winning team?
119kgs
for those that are metric impaired - 260 lbs
I should have done that...:)
sorry...:)
Spitfires sailed 2 ratings:
1.044 for the standard
1.038 for the Spitfire S (with bigger main).
So... in an SCHRS Regatta you could have 6 maybe 7 possible ratings (depending on boat and configuration)on the course with F16, Spitfires and Vipers (single and double handed) that could all be called F16 boats.
Would it not be better to say that what the fleet is about is level rated racing and just consider the F16 box rule to set the ceiling of performance?
Sure beats arguing over what the class boat weight should be and gets sailors to align with the larger notion of racing 16 foot boats within the defined F16 Box.
The marketing and the reality are a bit at odds on the race course. The current reality looks more like your typical struggle for one design market share dominance then Formula Racing.
We want F16, as we like the concept but the F16 Class needs to help itself and become active.
Cheers
Bundy
Sorry Bundy but the above is such an arrogant statement, take Datchet for example, I think we have something like 10 F16's on site and some 3 -4 FX1's, not all are sailed together at the same time, but most regularly are sailed at some stage.
Only some are raced and most are sailed for pleasure and there lies the nub, not everyone races.
Most cannot afford to travel to Europe to participate and in fact very few want to travel just at the moment with the UK economy as it is. One only has to look at the GB participating crews at that race and they are all closely associated either by family associations to dealers / manufacturers ( sponsorship ) or are very active sailors wanting to improve against top sailors.
AHPC and B2 are the first F16 compliant manufacturer to start to throw money at marketing and getting the boats out there in the wider public view, and that is what has been so sorely missed in the F16 scheme of things. You will do well in my opinion as your boat will become the boat to own as most people will see the Viper in numbers regardless whether it is the best boat or not, that unfortunately is just the way of the marketing led world we live in.
But, and here is the big but, boats sold to owners wishing to race is only a tiny proportion of overall boats sold and yet you seem to equate F16 activity to those boats which race at large European based races held only a few times a year. You are on a hiding to nothing if that is the case. Yes you will sell a few boats in the first few years to racers but those will quickly dry up as those racers move on or already own a Viper.
The big sales numbers are the hidden owners such as at Datchet, who by choice do not travel, nor race, but enjoy sailing a F16 because it is light weight, fast and can handle both 1 or two up crews.
Hi Wayne,
The intention was not to be arrogant but to find out where you all are, as I said I could not find any evidence, now your email is revealing that you are out there. Maybe I need to come to you. Chris Sproat is going to email me the GBR races calendar.
We'd be glad to see you over here.