Apparently, I used the identifier
hardcore racing
to describe what the F16 is not about. A few have asked what this means exactly so here my explanation.
Hardcore racing implies a series of events that all count towards a championship or title. It puts pressure on the class members to attend all such events or basically be non-participants (those DNS's kind of kill your changes otherwise). I also implies a certain attitude in in racing that some find off-putting. When the stakes run high (sponsor deal promises to be fulfilled) then the tempers run high. Alot of abuse on the start-line, yelling and cursing and on the beach statements made in the line of
if you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen
The F16 is not intended for this kind of sailing enjoyment. Hence the basic principle of only organising single events or challenges. The events are more about your own battle against nature and to surpass yourself then about beating the other guy and get 1st place. It allows the class members to pick the events they want to participate in and which they don't, without undo outside pressure. Afterall, this class was intended to be both versatile and relaxed thus accomdating to crews/sailors who also have other persuits in life like family, career or other hobbies. We can't all be Macca can we ?
So why not sail Hobie 16's you may ask. Well, because being relaxed about our sailing doesn't mean that we don't care whether we sail an old clunker or a top-of-the-line modern boat. We do ! Especially when laying down 15.000 bucks for it. For that kind of money we expect something proper. Not some overweight, bad behaved sailboat with some fancy striping and a glossy brochure. That and the act we also sail in open class events (distances races) and it is just no fun trailing 30 min behind the fleet.
So we maximized what we could get for a reasonable purchase prize and formed the F16 class.
Again, anybody not interested in recreational racing (single events for a beer prize and the eternal honour) can go to the F18 class and anybody with a full-carbon fetism can go to the A-cat class (or the new M20, CFR20, Eagle 20, nacra F20 class or whatever comes around next year class). We'll just use a few pieces of carbon cloth were it matters and run with that.
Wouter
What if a few serious racers decide to join the class and go there? There may be a couple of guys there already that might think of themself as serious racers.
As the class grows, you will get more of them.
Perhaps, in view of the objectives of the F16 class, it would be better to amend the class rules to disallow sailors who are sponsored and/or paid professional sailors, than to ban the use of any materials in the boats construction, or adjust the weight of the boats to suit any one manufacturer.
Or how about just ban results, make everyone a winner...
Macca, you`re a genius ! Why has no-one ever thought of that.. It would also do away with all those
my rating system is better than yours
threads. <img src="<>/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy" height="15" width="15" />
What??
You mean just sail for...FUN??
http:/
I wish there was more hard core racing like that... If only that style of racing was around when I was a boy.
I'm afraid we are seen as not serious enough is why some people do stay away. BUT, you can be serious and be NOT so serious.
Yes, the principle of more is better is one of the F16's foundations and it helps that the class has grown.
Here in the US, there are more serious racers joining the F16 fleet, but those people are also NOT going to yell at someone at the starting line or throw a protest as soon as possible. The people that do that, DO need to stay away in ALL of sailing. That stuff right there is the biggest turn off to sailing than anything else. Being exclusive is the next big killer of OUR sport.
I also think that for our CLASS to grow, we probably need more
professionals
come to the table. That would make it a legitimate class. IMO anyway. I know, that sucks for some of us who aren't going to get first because they show up, but if someone like that does show up, WE have to step up our game to be competitive. Which means, we HAVE to get better at our sailing skills. Which in turns, makes US better sailors.
After saying all of that, I'm not a serious racer, but all of my sailing has been racing. Your LIFE sometimes gets in the way. You just have to take care of some of those things. But, for our class to grow, we've got to go sailing. Yes, going to the local club and sailing there to club race helps, but, going to out of town regattas is the best way for OUR class to grow. You won't believe how many times I'll do an out of town regatta and someone will ask me about the F16. Of course, the cost is a little high for a new one, but that's what you have turn over for. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
A little rambling, but OUR class is a legitimate class AND it is very viable. Some people just don't want to admit it!
Mike
As the class grows, you will get more of them.
Like the posts asks, what do you mean by serious racers? Does this include paid professionals? That is already there and how will that affect people’s idea of racing?
In my experience just thinking something is fast provides some edge. The greatest threat this class is experiencing right now is this forum and the continual class slander campaign about an uber boat coming along and destroying everything. If this is really a concern, do not join, if it isn’t, buy what you feel is the best boat for you and show up at some events.
The big players already have similarly classed boats that have had very limited marketing success. Why would the class wish to dumb down their rules to go this direction? If a big player comes in and can wield their customer loyalty base to sell a lot of boats we will see a fracture in the class. Its growth to date is not because of a big builder pushing their idea of a product and many will likely continue to run light and development rules should the “class” change its direction. The big builders see this I am sure and it is 1 more reason they are not interested in pursuing this path right now.
The most successful catamaran classes recently are Formula based and brand competition within this framework is a good thing. New models will continue to be assumed better than the old. If you are afraid of buying in to something and getting obsolete, or no longer being competitive, then do not sail a formula class, go find one of the 1 design classes. Within the rule set, no amount of money is going to build a boat that is significantly faster, and if it is that expensive, there will be no more than a few, which would do nothing to detract from those buying an F16 from continuing to sail. Weight is probably the single biggest factor in determining performance on equivalently rigged boats. The more than slightly overweight Viper can still win races. The idea (marketing spin) that you have to have weight, or that it equates to better properties or a performance gain for the class is absurd. The reports from the sailors who test sailed the Viper and Falcon at the GC came back and said the Falcon was equally if not stiffer than the Viper. F18 beams are heavy for an F18 for what they provide in stiffness. Using them in an F16 is just a matter of convenience not necessity. Super hull volume is good (and only to a point )for carrying heavier crews and heavier boats. Fatter can be slower. A true boat designed for uni would have hulls a lot closer to an A not an F18. Properly applied stiffness is faster, yes, but all these discussions, including weight, are about a VERY small amount of difference, that 99% of sailors will not be able to realize or likely even recognize. AHPC is spending a lot of money promoting and placing top teams on their boats to make sure they keep podium finishes. This is helping the class but it is not the class – sailors are. If they decide that it is economically beneficial to abandon the Viper for a min weight, designed for the class, F16 will that kill the class? Bundy and Carolijn on a Viper will still win; did the Wildcat, C2 or any of the many NACRA F18s kill that class? Did the Flyer kill the A class?
Obviously no one is going to provide a logical argument to you that will change your mind on these issues that have taken on an almost religious flavor. If you want to help the class how would you do it? AND the rules are done, so coming and trying to get the class to change their rules is not an acceptable answer. If that is how you feel, please go play on the F18 forum.
Then they can organise for themselves such events (or series of events). Neither the class nor the other more recreational sailors will stop them from organising that; they will only prevent the class from being dominated by such a group of F16 sailors.
The fact that the class is not intended for that goal doesn't mean it is forbidden.
You may get a little less direct class support for such events, compared to the challenges etc, but that will be logical. Although, I also can see both variants to co-exist side by side very well.
Wouter
In the F16 class we chose
fun-while-persueing-our-sailing-hobby
over
hard-core-cut-throat-racing
.
The class members seem to buy into this straw man argument to the extent that it actually seems fundamental to the F16 class…
What are the characteristics of “hard core”…..
In my book… “hard core” are committed individuals who make a racing class happen by creating a schedule … attending the events on the schedule and making the CLASS happen at the regatta. THAT’s IT! Nothing else should be added.
I assert that every successful sailboat racing class is held together by HARDCORE individuals who work to grow and support their attendance event after event.
When I first started sailing, I shared the beach with the most hard core racers I had ever met… They raced AQUACATS… from Sandy Pt State Park beach to some crab pot and back every month for three years…. They were as hardcore a group as you could find… competitive… not so much. As Tony F18 notes… each individual will differ but for a CLASS…. You need those Hardcore individuals who make something happen.
The fundamental mistake of Wouter and perhaps the F16 class membership is conflating “hard core” with the competition level. Much worse is when the Class seems to want to join Wouter , who insists on using Hardcore as a euphemism for butt hole AND competitive….
The absolutely ridiculous aspect is in thinking that one person or even a group of you could define the class culture for the sailors.
Class culture is bottom up.... NOT mandated by Wouter and the founders.
On that Mark, we CAN agree....
Mark I thought your definition of
Hard Core Racer
was more of what I think of as
Back Bone
of a class. I don't want to speak for Wouter, he does that well enough for himself, but I thought when he was talking about 'Hard Core Racer' he more meant someone who wants to win, at all costs, on the latest, greatest, fastest machine out there, what ever that happens to be at the moment, and then moves on to the next big thing. Maybe a factory sponsored ride, what ever, but someone who doesn't put in any time/effort/money to build the class, just take the trophy and move on.
Every class needs a
backbone
group, could be just a few people, but reliable people, who will do as you said, organize a schedule, put on regattas, and make it happen. That in my book does not make that person(s)
Hard Core Racer
.
Wouter and a few others here have been the
Backbone
of the F16 class for quite a while, hell they started the F16 class. None of them are what I would call,
Hard Core Racers
. Hard core F16 Class Zealots maybe, but not Hard Core Racers.
So Mark, when are you buying one and help put on some regattas up by you? You know the next F16 N/A's are going to be held at the WRSC, right? I'll bet they could use some help setting it up...
Timbo..
Hard Core Racer
was more of what I think of as
Back Bone
of a class. I don't want to speak for Wouter, he does that well enough for himself, but I thought when he was talking about 'Hard Core Racer' he more meant someone who wants to win, at all costs, on the latest, greatest, fastest machine out there, what ever that happens to be at the moment, and then moves on to the next big thing. Maybe a factory sponsored ride, what ever, but someone who doesn't put in any time/effort/money to build the class, just take the trophy and move on.
Hardcore RACER?
This is just fuzzy thinking on your part... It's pscho bable that traps the F16 class into an ugly cul de sac WHEN YOU PUT IT IN YOUR CLASS GOALS....
now it's class defined by Timbo and Wouter.
What do you plan to do... thow out any individual with the characteristics you define as
hardcore racer
?
Somebody die and decide that Wouter and yourself should judge the motivations of the racers on the starting line.
Face it... you use it as a slur... No different then an ethnic slur ... How do you think this promotes F16 racing?
What do you plan to do with somebody like BUNDY... make sure he bought a boat then convene a panel to decide if he is a hard core racer... and decide if he fits the class... ???
Ridiculous!
Find another class which sets forth such BS in their class goals.... This sailboat class stuff is not a new problem.... nothing to invent here....
Drop this BS... clean up the the goals... eliminate all of the drama.
The CLASS should just form a race schedule for each region. Decide if racing one up and two up is really CLASS raicng or Level Racing or Handicap Racing... WHATEVER.
PUBLISH IT.... and the CLASS members should show up and support the schedule. This is the total effort needed to promote the F16 world wide.
The rest of this crap is delusional self ...
Clearly someone is delusional! <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
Well Mark, since you just put me in charge:
I move that we, the F16 Class Boat Owners, now vote to have Mark institutionalized.
He's
Hard Core
something...porn maybe?
Is Large Johnson his screen name?
As the girls say,
What a Dick
.
Out of the mouths of children... the truth
Nacrakid wrote:
For me looking from the outside (if i could afford a viper i would buy one, but ive got my Spitfire smile ) the F16 class all seems a bit foggy, for some one just trying to look at your website there are no dates on the calander and to find second hand boats you have to go on to the forums.
For example is there any F16 Nationals champs in europe, or is the euros the only event?
nuff said!
If only...
You know what they say, kids and drunks always tell the truth... <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" />
Gentlemen-
Mark is honestly trying to help, as are most of the people on here. Let's all just try to keep the negative comments about each other, or even all the innuendo, out of the discussion please. It appears our
moderators
have disappeared from this forum or have elected to let it degenerate.
WE cannot keep anyone from buying an F16 or racing it however they want somewhere. This forum has been a double-edged sword for the class from the beginning. I personally think it is a huge testament to the boats and the general concept that we are still in
business
based on some of the things that have gone on in this and previous forums (remember the old days? F18HT, Inter 17, etc.) - now that we seem to have outlived most of those
us against the other classes
fights we are starting fights among ourselves! That's Mark's point- And as far as I know we have not made it a requirement to actually own a legal F16 to participate in this forum- that's how you (hopefully- with grace and passion and example) lead people into the class.
Mark has been supportive of this class from the early days and is still trying to be. We need some strong leaders in the class who are hardcore SAILORS who happen to love the idea/concept/boats which fit in the F16 class- whether they want to race, cruise, distance sail, are professionals, semi-pros, amateurs, kids, etc. AHPC builds a good boat as do all our current builders IMO. AGAIN- I implore you to embrace all the current builders and sailors of our boats and let our boats and graceful, not RUDE, passion for our sport be the cornerstone of our class.
Kirt
Spot on Timbo !
I have nothing to add to your postings.
Wouter
From Kirt:
We need some strong leaders in the class who are hardcore SAILORS who happen to love the idea/concept/boats which fit in the F16 class- whether they want to race, cruise, distance sail, are professionals, semi-pros, amateurs, kids, etc.
OK, so here's what we need to do:
Step 1: Buy (or build) an F16.
Step 2: Show up to sail it.
Step 3: if you can't buy or build one, organize an event.
So Mark, when are you buying one or help put on some regattas up by you? You know the next F16 N/A's are going to be held at the WRSC, right? I'll bet they could use some help setting it up.
Well Mark?
Cricketts...
And from Mark's rant above:
Class culture is bottom up.... NOT mandated by Wouter and the founders.
Last time I checked, Mark, you are the only one in this debate who is neither a class member or F16 owner...so take some of your own advice and let the Class Members decide, from, as you say, the Bottom up!
From CS classifieds:
Taipan 4.9(F16) -- Excellent condition,Selftacking jib. Full set new sails. Aluminum trailer, catbox and Beach Wheels. Many extras. $9600.00 pics/info contact:
Stefan@banyanscapes.com (FL)(May)
Taipan 4.9 F16 -- Sailed very few times, excellent shape & won the F16 Nationals. Comes with two mains (one for sloop rig, one for unirig), spinnaker and Hooter, Excellent rudder system compared to stock, Lightweight Kevlar built, Carbon PowerRighter Pole, wing mast. old trailer possibly available. $8900. Rick 305-451-3287, rick@catsailor.com, check it out at http://www.ahpc.com.au/m_taipan.htm (FL
Maybe we, the -bottom up- class members, you know, the ones who have actually spent our own money on boats, and actually showed up and raced and organized events, should all pitch in and buy Mark a boat.
Then he can come to a regatta and show us how it's done. Man, I wish we had more Hard Core Mark's in our fleet!
Be nice. Civility is the watch word of the day.
I thoght I was being nice, I offered to buy him a boat! How much Nicer do I need to be?
So Mark, why don't you define Bottom Up for me? Seems I'm a bit slow, but right here, you are talking to the
Bottom Up
group, you do realize that, right?
Wouter wrote:
Hardcore racing implies a series of events that all count towards a championship or title. It puts pressure on the class members to attend all such events or basically be non-participants (those DNS's kind of kill your changes otherwise). I also implies a certain attitude in in racing that some find off-putting. When the stakes run high (sponsor deal promises to be fulfilled) then the tempers run high. Alot of abuse on the start-line, yelling and cursing and on the beach statements made in the line of
if you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen"
Wouter, I honestly do not know any class or group that correspond to the description you wrote above.
I think you wrote your perception of a class or group as you see it, I attend quite a lot of races and do not recognise the negative attitude or behaviour you portraied.
There is a rulesclinic at your club tonight, maybe I will see you there?
Tim,
This seems like a good moment to let go.
The points have been made and it is now better to spend our energy on more positive things.
You happen to be on a EU flight around the Euro's time ? You might want to drop in with your sailing gear in your handbag ! Some owners are looking to pick up crew.
With kind regards,
Wouter
I think you wrote your perception of a class or group as you see it, I attend quite a lot of races and do not recognise the negative attitude or behaviour you portraied.
But others do. In the past, several crews from certain classes did express such views and were looking to switch to the F16's partly for that reason. Additionally, I myself was forced to change my sailnumber at the very last moment because some well known racer claimed ownership of the same number even when he didn't sail in my class or even on the same course ! Better still, he had already decided to not sail at all because of the conditions but pushed through the protest anyway.
I'm really not making this up.
Will you be at the clinic yourself ? I can be tempted to drop by for a beer (it is a 20 km round trip by bicycle for me).
Wouter
Beer and bikes? That's a subject worthy of a video.