Are they incompetent?
ahhh, more useless threads...
Maybe they don't want to
compete
against some of their other products, like the I17 and F18? There are only so many interested buyers out there.
Glad you feel that way. Go back to the F18 forum and give them the benefit of all your wonderful knowledge.
Well, Tim, If I follow your logic then Nacra does see the F16 as a threat; which I suspect is the case. That would also explain why Nacra sends it's drivers over here to bad mouth us. They can't make a real case for their own products so they are forced to criticize their competitiors. That is a weak position indeed.
Has anyone heard anything about Nacra's financial state? This is a very tough economic time, maybe they are about to fold up shop! You just never know.
Pete,
I think Tony gave you the proper reply here.
Are you looking for more **** fights or helping to end this chaos ?
Bad mouthing nacra or hobie won't do anyone good.
Wouter
Just calling it like I see it. This is not a good faith negotiation. It is a **** fight and invariably the worst offenders are Nacra drivers. Ask yourself why?
Yes, but the upshot of that attitude is that you are actually starting half the **** fights yourself.
So please will you do us a favour and vent your frustration over a beer in a group of friends, but not as new controversial threads that rehash old topics over and over again.
I and several others will be very thankful indeed.
Wouter
Wouter you won't win this fight by being nice. Out of respect for the efforts you've put into the F16 class I'll drop this thread. But that doesn't mean you're right...
NACRA, and/or Hobie, could clearly come up with a competitive F16- especially if they put some of their
rock stars
on them to sail them. They are businesses and they make product decisions based on the bottom line, and apparently have done so successfully despite what some of us (including myself) might think about those decisions. This is why they are still probably in business and have survived rough times before. Both, in the past, have definitely preferred SMOD boats over
open
or development boats- Hobie even passes rules NOT allowing any other
brand
of boat at their sanctioned regattas. Witness the Hobie
near-A
that is essentially a SMOD
A
cat. If either could, they would turn the F18 into a SMOD, with their particular hulls being the class-approved ones (witness Hobie's plans for the Tiger and holding separate Tiger regattas). We are (presently) a small market from their perspective, we are
open
so that means there product will be judged directly in comparison to others in price, quality, etc. and we are a sailor controlled class compared to their manufacturer controlled model. Additionally, in this economy, justifying the development and start-up costs for an entirely new
model
which not be able to utilize many of the company's current components (which clearly keeps costs down in many ways- well known in autos, power boats, RV's, ess any mass produced product). In the case of NACRA at least, it appears their
approach
is simply to try to lure potential F16 buyers to one of their current products- F18, Inter 17 (Formula now?- THERE is an OBVIOUS reason they renamed the
Inter
IMO- American mentality of
more is better
- if an F16 is good then an F17 MUST be better!), the Hobie 16 or FX1, etc. Much more cost effective for them to do that than develop and market a new product.
THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little
ribbing
between brands is great and
I like my boat better because....
is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our
competition
for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class. Heck Hobie 16's weights vary greatly but you don't hear them really bashing their manufacturer. We need to be more like the
A
class- in the
A
class we just love the boats and the concept- we have a ton of different boat builders and every boat has it's merits- As has been pointed out many times, every boat is a compromise- what makes them different is where and how the compromises differ.
That's just how I see it- Your opinion may differ and that's fine!
Kirt
Pete,
Thank you, I truly appreciate that.
Wouter
+ 1 Kirt - great post. This should be in the
opportunities
thread.
As someone from outside F16 but inside formula sailing I reckon you have great opportunities here. If Hobie and/or Nacra produce a boat fitting the F16 parameters and it is competitive then it just gives you more choice. They'll do that if they see a viable market and are able to make a quid. In the meantime stop worrying about it and sail the already good choice of boats you have - they all have various attributes which suit some and not others. Welcome to the wonderful world of formula sailing.
Now to lighten things up this following statement is made purely in jest and I mean no detriment or offence to anyone. So lets go enjoy and grow the sport of sailing (maybe even the monoslug sailors!)
A Class = too expensive
F18 = too heavy
F16 = too precious/argumentative
F14 = too few
F12 = too small
Cheers
Have a good day
Thanks Ace! Just back from a nice sail on my Taipan- Gave one of the monoslug sailors a pin for hitch so he could get his boat out- he was about to use a screwdriver and locking wrench since he didn't have a pin!
That's what sailing should be about- helping each other get out on the water and having fun! I work too much/too hard to have my sailing turn into work!
Kirt
Why? For the same reason they don't make A-cats i.e. bottom line, profit margins, too much effort required, etc. <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" />
Warranty of
light
boats is a potential business killer.
My understanding is the european warranty laws are strict. Not such a problem for small, boutique builders because buyers realise they will get over the phone support but not as much replacement support. If Nacra or Hobie tried it they'd probably get bombarded with expensive warranty claims...maybe.
Why not ASK Hobie and NACRA? Or is that too simple a solution.
We sit on this forum bouncing around a whole pile of theories instead of doing the obvious.
light
boats is a potential business killer.
And that is why Hobie for example launches the 100kg iCat and why Nacra has done the A2 and A3 A-cats.
I think that if the above quote is true then they would never have launched either boats.
Wouter
light
boats is a potential business killer.
And that is why Hobie for example launches the 100kg iCat and why Nacra has done the A2 and A3 A-cats.
I think that if the above quote is true then they would never have launched either boats.
Wouter
Not sure of the point being made here. At 100kg the ICat is a pretty heavy boat if it wants to play in the A Class area. The A2 was marketed by Nacra but not the A3 as I understand it. Only one ever made it to AUS - not best suited to our generally higher wind and rougher water.
Kirt, I agree with most of what you have to say, but differ on this :
THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little
ribbing
between brands is great and
I like my boat better because....
is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our
competition
for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class.
Firstly, I`m NOT an F16 owner, but an interested observer, just so you can see where I`m coming from. (ie a potential customer, given the right circumstances)
I think that all the heated debate regarding class rules, min. weight etc, are as a direct result of players OUTSIDE of F16 wanting to enter the game, and play it by their own rules.
I also see all the heated discussions regarding weight etc as being a COHESIVE force in the class - I have not seen ONE F16 sailor/owner agreeing with Macca or TA, they have all been very forceful in their defense of the F16 class, it`s rules and it`s method of running the class. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen, but they have a right to defend their stance, as they are the ones who have invested time, money and effort into the class, and who have the right to decide on it`s future growth potential (or lack thereof), as they bought into the concept of LIGHTWEIGHT 16ft racing boats. Changing that aspect of the class might detract from the attractiveness of the class and chase potential customers away.(Like me).
What I see is outsiders constantly making trouble, and F16 owners/ class members continually having to defend the class from these attacks.
Of course I agree that bashing any manufacturer in or out of the class does no-one any good. I do have strong reservations about whether the F16 class should WANT Hobie or Nacra to be involved in their class, I know very little about Nacra as an organisation, but I do know that Hobie has done catsailing and themselves no favour by alienating themselves from other sailors through their corporate attitude. I would hate it if that permeated the F16 class, and would see the entry of Hobie into the F16 class as a threat to it`s survival. If Macca`s opinions on these forums are anything to go by as a Nacra company representative, I believe the involvement of Nacra would only be worse.
If I`m mistaken, it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop trying to enforce his belief system regarding what would be
good" for F16 down our throats, or alternately inform the F16 class that Macca`s opinions do not reflect those of the Nacra company. If they were to do this, threads titled like this one would not be started. Macca has created a hatred of Nacra among F16 supporters which may not be well founded.
I also believe that the class rules will look after all involved - The Viper has fuller more bouyant hulls at the expense of weight. They COULD build the same boat lighter, at substantially increased cost, which is self-correcting as it would not sell as well. So a business decision has been forced by the class rules, one which Hobie and Nacra would also have to make in order to be competitive in the class (not only on the racecourse, but in volume of boats sold in order to be profitable. They must compete in PRICE with Stealth, Blade etc.) So I believe the F16 class rules allow for all schools of thought - lightweight lower volume hulls at min. weight, or fuller hulls at a slight weight penalty, evening out the playing field.
The problem with Formula classes is that some people want them to remain controlled development classes, while others would prefer them to migrate to being almost-one-design, similar to F18. I believe the F16 objectives when started were far more open, allowing similar boats with similar performance to race on a scratch basis. The Viper has at least shown that this is indeed possible, and are probably winning races more due to the highly skilled sailors and the refined rig, than any difference in hull shape, volume or stiffness of platforms contributes. If they traded boats with a mediocre sailor halfway through the regatta of a different make, they would probably still win, and the mediocre sailor would probably retain his position in the fleet. The boats have SIMILAR performance, enough so that weekend sailors needn`t worry about changing boats every season, or whenever the next best thing comes along.
Steve,
I stay away from this forum these days and only just happenned upon your post while filling in time waiting for a visitor to arrive. I'm just sick of the
F16 FREE RIDE WANTA BEES
telling everyone one else how to
suck eggs
.
It is refreshing to see that someone with no axe to grind can see what is really going on.
The first good post that I've seen in quite a while- not that I look any more.
Life is short make the most of it.
Regards,
Phill
Steve:
it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop
.
This may have happened, who knows? In any case this forum has been civil for a few days, maybe it will remain so.
Phil: It was good to hear from you, hopefully you'll come back more often. I'm sure everyone would like to hear more about your home build.
Perhaps you could bring us up to date. On another thread...
Pete,
I took the Razor for a test sail a week or two back.
Does everything as expected- you would think it was on rails upwind, light and flighty off the breese.
I'm very happy with it.
Regards,
Phill
THIS is why IMO what we, as F16 sailors, need to do is really help our current manufacturers- Support them ALL!! A little
ribbing
between brands is great and
I like my boat better because....
is helpful but bashing/criticizing OUR manufacturers, for any reason, is playing right into the hands of our
competition
for new/current sailors. All this derision about weight, etc. is playing right into their hands too IMO. It projects a vision of a fractionated, derisive class.
Firstly, I`m NOT an F16 owner, but an interested observer, just so you can see where I`m coming from. (ie a potential customer, given the right circumstances)
I think that all the heated debate regarding class rules, min. weight etc, are as a direct result of players OUTSIDE of F16 wanting to enter the game, and play it by their own rules.
I also see all the heated discussions regarding weight etc as being a COHESIVE force in the class - I have not seen ONE F16 sailor/owner agreeing with Macca or TA, they have all been very forceful in their defense of the F16 class, it`s rules and it`s method of running the class. Whether they are right or wrong remains to be seen, but they have a right to defend their stance, as they are the ones who have invested time, money and effort into the class, and who have the right to decide on it`s future growth potential (or lack thereof), as they bought into the concept of LIGHTWEIGHT 16ft racing boats. Changing that aspect of the class might detract from the attractiveness of the class and chase potential customers away.(Like me).
What I see is outsiders constantly making trouble, and F16 owners/ class members continually having to defend the class from these attacks.
Of course I agree that bashing any manufacturer in or out of the class does no-one any good. I do have strong reservations about whether the F16 class should WANT Hobie or Nacra to be involved in their class, I know very little about Nacra as an organisation, but I do know that Hobie has done catsailing and themselves no favour by alienating themselves from other sailors through their corporate attitude. I would hate it if that permeated the F16 class, and would see the entry of Hobie into the F16 class as a threat to it`s survival. If Macca`s opinions on these forums are anything to go by as a Nacra company representative, I believe the involvement of Nacra would only be worse.
If I`m mistaken, it would be a good idea if a Nacra company representative ask Macca to stop trying to enforce his belief system regarding what would be
good" for F16 down our throats, or alternately inform the F16 class that Macca`s opinions do not reflect those of the Nacra company. If they were to do this, threads titled like this one would not be started. Macca has created a hatred of Nacra among F16 supporters which may not be well founded.
I also believe that the class rules will look after all involved - The Viper has fuller more bouyant hulls at the expense of weight. They COULD build the same boat lighter, at substantially increased cost, which is self-correcting as it would not sell as well. So a business decision has been forced by the class rules, one which Hobie and Nacra would also have to make in order to be competitive in the class (not only on the racecourse, but in volume of boats sold in order to be profitable. They must compete in PRICE with Stealth, Blade etc.) So I believe the F16 class rules allow for all schools of thought - lightweight lower volume hulls at min. weight, or fuller hulls at a slight weight penalty, evening out the playing field.
The problem with Formula classes is that some people want them to remain controlled development classes, while others would prefer them to migrate to being almost-one-design, similar to F18. I believe the F16 objectives when started were far more open, allowing similar boats with similar performance to race on a scratch basis. The Viper has at least shown that this is indeed possible, and are probably winning races more due to the highly skilled sailors and the refined rig, than any difference in hull shape, volume or stiffness of platforms contributes. If they traded boats with a mediocre sailor halfway through the regatta of a different make, they would probably still win, and the mediocre sailor would probably retain his position in the fleet. The boats have SIMILAR performance, enough so that weekend sailors needn`t worry about changing boats every season, or whenever the next best thing comes along.
SPOT ON.
Phill-
Looks very nice! Apparently a fairly easy homebuild since it's mainly
flat
panels? Presume that was one of the design objectives, or?
Guess this might be easy to build ala the LCD
A
cat method of foam panels w/ CF on both sides. What's she weigh 😉 ?
Kirt
Well, I guess I'll just agree that we disagree on what sort of view this type of discussion portrays to
outsiders' just jumping on this forum to see what the F16 class is all about. I'm not sure someone just jumping on would know who's an actual class member, a manufacturer, an interested potential buyer, an old member, etc. IMO most
newbies" entering this forum would presume that posters who seem to offer advice/opinions would be members/owners/manufacturers but perhaps I am being naive.
Kirt
Another outsider view 😛
Nacra could built a F16, but if they were to look on these forums they could be off put, most of the threads end up turing into fights bettween parties (parties that are not obviusly F16 or non F16 sailor) meaning that it gives the F16 class a look of friction between sailors and possibly a difficult class to deal with. Nacra could possibly go to AHPC and disscuss with them of setting up a new class of 120ish kg boats that they can both easily market and manufacture, and pgp's posts on the F18 forum will have not done the class any favours.
Before you start ripping me apart, if the UK youth catamran was still the Hobie 16 and not the Spitfire (which might fit in the rule actually) then I would seriuosly consider getting a F16 as I would have to get a 90kg crew to sail a F18!
Hopefully no one will rip you apart. But this particular thread needs to go away.
Personally, I'd welcome your comments but in a new thread please.
Also, one of the
old hands
has suggested that a boat type and sail number in a posters signature block would be nice.
Thanks, have a nice weekend.
PLANNING?
My theory on why weight is not as critical on a F16 as on a Tornado,
is my F16 appears to me to be fastest when planning.
I have sailed heavy a Tornado 35lb over minimum and it was a dog.
In medium wind & up planning may be the equalizer?
My theory on why weight is not as critical on a F16 as on a Tornado,
is my F16 appears to me to be fastest when planning.
I have sailed heavy a Tornado 35lb over minimum and it was a dog.
In medium wind & up planning may be the equalizer?
If that's the Tornado I'm thinking of, it was a dog for quite a few other reasons as well <img src="<>/smirk.gif" alt="smirk" title="smirk" height="15" width="15" />
Not trying to stir the pot up again, but I thought this was the best objective answer to the original question...like they say a picture is worth a thousand words...Couldn't help but think of this thread when I saw a picture Jake posted of the inside of a NACRA 20.
http:/
I just happened to sit at the same table with Macca last night at dinner in Racine. The F16 topic came up and what he said seemed simple enough to me.
He feels that the rule set in F16 needs refinement (I think you all know his argument about a class killer) before Nacra jumps in and invests. We can argue all day about whether a class killer could/would be developed, but that is how he felt they viewed it. Risk versus reward.
I asked about the new 20 and the risk/reward equation and he said they had so many European pre-orders that it was put into production. He gave a couple of people at the dinner table a
tour
of a 20 hull they had on display. Big pricetag but looks to be an awesome boat. Certainly light weight. I could lift the hull with one hand. He said anyone who has test sailed it has bought it.