Hypothetical question?

You can't get into this without flames.

I think the F16 class will grow.

If Nacra / Hobie were to come into the class it would be good. But if they were to come in planning to change the class, by say upping the Min weight then it would be a disaster for the class. I do not believe there is room in the market for another 16 foot boat around 130kg. We already have one and it's called a Spitfire in the EU. There is also the H16 with a Spi.

Hobie / Nacra building to the current class rules would be excellent news. An extablished builder building boats at 104 / 107 for sailing single handed and 2 up would be very good.

Building heaviy boats for sailing 2 up only would be the end of the class as we have it now.

For single handing all up weight is the driving factor IMO. 104 is OK, 130kg is not.

Its our game, they must play by our rules.

I also think Nacra/Hobie or even Cirrus in Europe would boost sales.
I also think they won't consider building an F16 at the current weight.
EDIT: I'm not in favour of changing any class rules because a 'big' manufacturer wants to enter the class. APHC has also built an F16 to the current rules, they just aren't that knows in Europe als Hobie or Nacra are.

The best thing is to get in touch with Hobie/Nacra pro sailors at events and check out what they think about the concept, class rules, ....

Gill

I recognise I am peripheral to the F16 class (I prefered it when the Spitfire was in the class), but I'd just say to hang in there - the F16 concept is good. Sailors will decide what's right for them, most likely based on what is happening in their country and local clubs.

If a big manufacturer developed an F16, that would only help. If they built something heavier, or slower, it wouldn't be an F16, unless you dcide it is.

I am not sure the big boys will ever consider the F16's as their market place, they make robust beach cats not racing cats which the F16's are. There are just too few hard core racers willing to spend 10k on a boat and once those hard core have boats then you aren't going to sell many more without changing the design regularly.

Certainly from a previous business I learnt early on you have to look at the mass markets and not the niche market for big number sales. To the likes of the niche manufacturers like Stealth however there lies a small rich market of budding racers, a small enough market not to interest the big boys and yet big enough for small adaptable companies to make a good living.

The only time this situation will change is if one of the big boys decides to make a 16ft robust beach cat at about 125kgs to replace an existing out dated model, their brand name plus loyal customer base will buy in the knowledge there resale value will be high, initial cost not to much, longevity will be good, adaptable 1 up or two sailing and they will only be 30 seconds slower over 1 hours sailing in an emerging racing class <img src=

alt=

/>

So the first question is really: Will F16 reach its goal with the current builders?

If yes then who cares if the big builders come and play?

If he answer is no, then the following needs to happen:-

I think the class needs to work out why a major builder is not involved or even expressing a desire to be involved.

Then the class should assess if they want to make the changes needed to get the big builders interested.

If the answer is no, then the class will just have to be happy with the current state.

And the big builders can continue to make robust beach cats and not these mysterious racing cats Wayne speaks of!

There is another simpler way, hypothetically speaking.

An existing company, let's say Hobie, could simply contract with an existing builder, Vectorworks perhaps; for a number of boats each year and simply

rebadge

the boats. This would eliminate the R&D costs to said company, provide a test run to determine viability, and give the existing factory an outlet for unused capacity.

Everbody wins. Further, this hypothetical company might offer existing boat owners the opportunity to

rebadge

. The company would gain instant exposure, the boat owner would gain access to a dealer network and class infrastructure.

I think that would just reduce margins.... Or more likley increase retail prices to retain margins.

I give you the Nacra A3, the Melvin designed and built A cat marketed by Nacra. If the A cats can do it with their low numbers but dedicated A cat sailors, then the F16's can do it too, if they want to.

BTW, while Nacra has come out with about 3 different F18's in the last 3 years, Hobie is still selling the same old Tiger and doing quite well with it.

Is it really the same Tiger? As I understand it there have been a lot of changes to the boat, but perhaps not very visible ones.

I also heard that the A3 is no longer being produced or marketed by Nacra. Rumor though so it can be very wrong.

I don't know exactly what has changed over the years, I know the sails obviously, mabye the rudders and boards? I think the basic hulls, beams and mast are the same. At least it looks the same at a distance, where the Nacra's hulls are quite different from year to year.

Yes, the A3 is a really nice boat. There is one in Australia now and it looks fantastic. However there is a good reason why the A3 is not imported (marketed) by the Nacra Distributor on Australia, its the same reason why the A3 is not actively marketed by Nacra Europe.

Margin

If you have too many fingers in the pie there just isn't enough to go around.

Also I think you might be a little bit out with

its more like 12 years... but who's counting hey <img src=

alt=

/>

The Tiger you buy new today is very different from the older ones.

I dont think the older ones even had sub decks.

The Tiger is actually a french design, the name escapes me now. But you still see the original boats in France and they look identical to a Tiger, same deck mouldings even!

maybe its an Aldao??

Anyhow the point is that Hobie could have sub contracted the build of the tiger to the original builder and put a Hobie sticker on it, but it just doesn't make sense to do that when you are a volume manufacturer and you have the skills and infrastructure in house.

Bad example i'm afraid <img src=

alt=

/>

Quote from M&Ms website:
Morrelli & Melvin Design & Engineering, Inc. is now manufacturing and selling the A3 catamaran.

The A3 design has been proven on the race course with the 2nd and 3rd place wins at the 2007 Ronstan A-Class Catamaran Worlds in Florida. Elite sailors have complemented the A3 on its consistent speed and competitive feel both upwind and downwind.

Concepts and design enhancements made by Pete Melvin with contributions from Jeremy Laundergan of Askland Engineering have made the A3 the boat to beat in the future. The Morrelli & Melvin A3 replaces the NACRA A2 catamaran. Performance Catamaran is no longer selling the NACRA A2 model, allowing their company to focus on the tremendously popular NACRA Formula 18 (Infusion) catamaran.

Morrelli & Melvin's move to produce and sell the A3 benefits the customer with personal attention to the boat from order to delivery. European and Asian athletes will find the Morrelli & Melvin A3 is very affordable due to the strength of the overseas currencies. Contact Morrelli & Melvin for prices, shipping costs and delivery time quotes.

Macca: The name you are looking for is Alado (The Mystere Twister's design is also based on the Tiger).

IMHO producing boats like the Stealth on a large scale and for the price it is selling now would be commercially impossible (staff, overhead, etc).
If I where a builder and would invest in a design I would want to be sure it is protected and cannot be used by others (Unlike the Blade for instance).

Macca, the Infusion has only just come out over here (well, last year) and the boat before that was only around for one or two years, and the boat before that was a replacement for the Inter 18, which did come out quite a while ago. I was not even talking about the Inter 18 but now that you bring it up, it came out about the same time as the original Tiger, is that correct? 1996?

I think Tikipete has the right idea. Has been in the back of my mind for a long while too.

Wouter

Macca,

Alado F18 was the original

Now, take care that you will not be going to rehash all old points again, okay ?

Wouter

Tim, I was using your

3 boats

as my reference, so yes there have been 3 Nacra F18 designs over the lifespan of F18. I think the inter 18 was released about 1996 but I might be out by a year or so.
The Infusion was released in 2006.

Might be in the back of your mind but I think its a long way further back in the minds of the big builders <img src=

alt=

/>

I am just assisting with the discussion, remember the original question in the thread was asking where F16 sailors thought the class should go in the future and if that future involved the large builders.
I am offering a point of view that may give light to the reason big builders are not involved currently and some pathways to getting them involved... If that is what the sailors want.

I understand.

Wouter

I think the future of the F16 class is to continue to be the F16 class. It was formed on some sound scientific considerations and an appreciation of the situation were our target group is finding themselves. I.e. sailors looking for a versatile recreational racer and/or a versatile boat for high performance pleasure sailing.

Therefor the goal and path of the F16 class are clear and it shouldn't matter much at all who produces F16 boats to forfill the F16 demand. Or on who joins or who leaves.

I fail to see significantly larger attractive benefits with a big builder then with a small builder. I'm not impressed much by say the Inter-17 or FX-one classes. If that is all that a big builder can offer then I much rather have

a small

builder like VWM. More impressive results and less complaining.

I think the identifier

small

and

big

are intepreted in a way that hints

inferiour

and

superior

when in fact there is more reason to intepreted it the other way around.

Lets face it guys an amateur designer called Phill Brander simply outclassed the

greatest design minds

of the big builders, with a shoestring budget. He is a

small

designer but created a

big

design !

I think all discussions on where we want to be in the future combined with whether a big builder will join or not are pointless. It is up to a builder to decide to join us and not the other way around where the F16 class will decide to join a builder.

We have been doing well without ANY support from a big builder in the past and there is absolutely no reason to believe that we won't be doing fine without them in the future.

Big builder support for a class is highly overrated in my opinion. I refer again to the I-17 and FX-one classes. Wew have gotten far more meaningful support from

small

builders.

Wouter

Good point. If you consider that the value proposition of a class involves some combination of the merits of the boat itself and the benefits of being able to sail with lots of others of the same class (the

network effect

), I would say that for the F16 that balance leans a little more towards the merits of the boat itself than it may for some other classes. Of course growth is good and we should pursue it, but as far as my own enjoyment is concerned I've been perfectly happy sailing (until late last season) as the solitary F16 in a fleet of N20/F18/F17/Tornados.

From a lurker's perspective
Let's say Hobie? Maybe never, or at least not for another three to five years, absolute minimum. The NA class association had enough power to squelch the addition of the spinnaker to the H16. They will try to protect this boat 'til death. H16's, as of now, can't be built fast enough to meet demand (local dealer ordered seven for this year, will receive two, five are on back order). Silently, among the Hobie class racers, your support is building. I'd say you have at least a 20% approval rating now. Mind you, at some point, people will make a move. Don't change a thing!!! As Mary stated (in another thread) the current weight is a HUGE selling point. USA Hobie sailors don't need a EU made boat, too costly, and for the simple exchange rate (dollars) reason I doubt the Tiger will ever approach any appreciable share of the overall Hobie Class racing. Will Performance offering an F16 sway any of the Hobie class, maybe, but doubtful. The infrastructure is what's hard to replace. I say hold your ground and be patient, follow the growth of the A Class. At some point (hopefully sooner than later) the F16 may be considered as a step up from the H16 and make sense to Hobie...hopefully.

Interesting question... What is the value added if you have a large builder behind your class?

IMO, a large builder does not help that much in growing the class.

Tornado has Marstrom, Probably not considered a big builder and the T class runs their class racing. Not a widely popular boat but the Olympic circuit drives the most active competitive racing circuit in the world. Marstrom does not know the meaning of the word “marketing: (Bottom line… no support for the “big builder is essential notion”)

A class, Has LOTS of small builders contributing new designs. No one builder dominates and the class runs their life. Much better grass roots support of the rank and file for the A class. Marketing is by the builder who wants to go racing on his boat around the world (Asby, Marstrom, Melvin etc etc) marketing is by word of mouth by a few fanboys…. The rank and file really markets the unique performance advantage of A class (positive spin) or exclusivity (negative spin) of the class. (No support for the big builder is important notion)

F16 class… A couple of small builders… no marketing campaign… A HUGE and vocal fanboy base that never misses a chance to talk about the boat… resulting in a bit of a mismatch between the noise on the wires… and noise on the water. (no support for the big builder notion.)

F18 class, Lots of builders, large and small… BUT… uses the marketing campaigns of the big builders to promote the class as the working man’s.. not quite Olympic class… The marketing approach is to put Tornado pro’s into the puddle with amateur sailors. This is perceived to strongly influence consumer choices… eg guys who are constantly trying to measure up. (This is the only example that I can come up with where the big builders have a positive impact on class growth)

So… in my opinion… the big difference is the marketing dollars invested by the big builders. The two large builders have more visibility to the consumer and the big marketing PR campaign helps with making the class visible. This has proven to be the big advantage to growing the class. However, In the USA… the class growth certainly seems to have stalled on the east coast so obviously more marketing is needed!

Do these big companies help the class organization more so then the small builders?
Sure!

Performance Cats in the USA. Probably considered a large builder ... Controls the class rules under the SMOD principle ... Not much owner provided class organization and leadership ... Basic attitude... Jack Y will make the nationals happen and he does. (F17 F18 and N20 classes). Certainly contributes to the marketing BS in the F18class… previously hyped the N20 class… then the F17 class by getting current DN Worlds champ onto those boats.

Hobie (USA and Australia) Clearly THE large builder in the game and the creator of the SMOD philosophy for cats. Times are changing of course and for our purposes (high performance racing), it would seem that the Hobie 16 and Tigers are the last fiberglass boats they will build… No doubt they lead the world in the marketing hype with the factory team in F18’s. The class association is viable runs the racing for the rank and file.
The factory has made substantive donations to the class (see big trailer etc etc)

Capricorn/Taipan…. Probably considered a large builder. Time have changed for them as well and they play the marketing game to a bit lesser extent. Currently the only one of the three that does not have a single handed spin boat class to sell…. (thus the question to the F16 class).

Do the big builders contribute to the self destructive behavior of the F18 Class because of the business plans they are running?
Well (flame suit on) YES!!!
The F18’s separate into Hobie Tiger nationals… (get rid of ALL your F18 mods)… the Nacra F18 class runs their own nationals… (get rid of ALL your F18 mods). … and the NAF18 class can’t seem to control the troops. So… for 08… you have three nationals scheduled. Nobody can explain why this makes sense.

The notion that each of the builders host a coastal 3 day open (all types of F18’s invited ) championship and the NAF18 class hosts a one week long North Americans seems to not be a good solution.

So IMO, it’s tough to make an argument that a big builder push is critical. Could a big builder contribute to class growth… sure.. How much compromise is needed… ah well that’s the crux of it now!

I dunno, but I wouldnt call VMI a small builder. Yeah they build the blades in a small corner of the plant but the blade is only a small venture of the company. They do plenty of big big stuff. Specially military vessels.

Last time I was at the plant they were about to remove the deck of a 60+ foot racing power boat. IMO that is not small. The machinery and man power they have is amazing. By no means small.

Only the people that own F16s get it.

I didn't buy my Blade because I wanted a maintsream boat. Yes, I want the class to grow but I want it to be because of the merits of the boat not who makes them. The light weight ensures the manufacturers use high quality materials and processes.

If you don't like fast, light, race boats then move on. There are a lot of heavy tanks on the market already.