I-17n needs help pointing

Bruce,
Can you tell us when you lost that edge.
Was it the new sail, (may need to tune your mast to it?)
Or did you loose the pointing before that. Possibly in a attempt to get more boat speed.
Also how does the boat feel upwind? Does it accellerate freely upwind? maybe too freely? Does it seem to lack power?
There are a few things you can try and the answer may be a combination of things. If you can tell us where your problems started it may give a clue as to what to try first.

Regards,
Phill

Phill,
Remember about 1 year or so ago you, Les Gallagher , Wouter and a host of others helped me online to get power and speed upwind?.....it was great help,...that is why i am back,....I want to get up to the next level,
ANSWERS to Questions

1. Lost my 'extreme' pointing about 1 year ago,...as time went on,...it steadily would point less than before.

...I assumed it was a'tired' sail.......so got a new one from Charlie Ogletree of Ullman

....tried this sail for the 1st time yesterday...

....Charlie O., after a discussion, built the sail about 6 inches short on the back of the sail,...said' in the Caribbean wind, I was spending too much time depowering,..just try it,..you will like it"......he was right,....I do not miss the sail area at all,......so this is my race day sail,....the other one is for the family picnic days....ha!

2. Here is a observation,...I set the downhaul to just snug up the sail(mainsheet NOT sheeted in),.....and there was a minor bend at the mast tip,...a #2 on a scale of 8(max)......
....under sail, with mainsheet tight(upwind),..the downhaul pulley-line system was slack...
....why did this happen?
....should I leave it alone,
....I looked up the sail,...no bags,..everything beautifully in line,...

3. I did change the mast settings since the 'good times'. The other beach cat sailors joke with me about 'de-tuning' the set up..,,,,they are right,..it is not the pointing machine it once was.
Changes
...mast spreaders to 2 and 1/2 inches
...mast diamond wires tight

NOW
...mast spreaders at 1 and 1/2 inches
...diamond wired loosened
..( I believe this a may be key setting,..but I cannot find a tension setting number or anything,,...there are not that many non "R" I-17 around?)...the spin I-17 carry super tight wires for the spin.....not the case here.

4. ACCELERATION

-boat is good upwind,good speed
- good power with 1 to 2 inch outhaul
- can blast thru 2 foot wave with out stopping with one hull up

NOTE.
We had 4 races Saturday, I was watching the boat instead of all out racing,..I had a FX-1 and N5.8 to match too.

In race 4,..I went to 'max point' mode
-d-board all the way down
-full outhaul
-mast rotated to 45 degree
- no downhaul
..results......horrible
- lost more pointing
- lost speed, felt like I was dragging something
- could not outpoint FX-1 ( was doing so all other 3 races)
- boat unsteady, 'up and down' alot

...so I know these settings do not work at all..

Thanks for the help..

Bruce
St. Croix
Virgin Islands

Bruce

How much wind was there?

John P

...wind was a steady 14, +/-2 mph.

....fairly true,....little or no shift

Bruce
St.Croix

..more data,

..over the last 12 months have replaced all the standing rigging, pins, shackles, plates,...from mast to hull.

Bruce

Bruce,

If you were having problems with your old sail I would suggest you ease the outhaul even more than 1 or 2 inches.
Say 2.5 to 3 inches and see how the pointing goes..If it isn't eased enough the boat won't point with the traveller eased.
If the outhaul is eased too much you feel helm. If the traveller is in too far the boat doesn't feel like it is driving. Eased too much and you can have a problem with lack of power and pointing. If you can work out a way of accurately calibrating these (mark adjustment lines) and keep track of what works best.

As you are using a new sail the mast may need to be setup to the sail.
But first, pull the traveller in and see if the boat still drives well. It's the easiest thing to try so do it first.

What do you mean "6 inches short on the back"?

From what you have said my first guess is the mast is bending too much for that sail.

It's just a guess.
If your stuck you could try tightening your diamond wires up and measure the prebend in the mast so you have a reference point.

(I am assuming the wires are so loose that there is little or no prebend right now. It also means the diamond wires do little to stop the mast from bending when loaded. This could cause the mast to bend too much , especially if this is a flatter sail.)

Try 20mm prebend for starters. The required amount can vary widely depending on the cut of the sail but you have to start somewhere.

Just wondering if you know:
*How much luff curve has been built into your new sail?
* Also what was built into your old sail?
* The previous prebend you were using?

If you haven't recorded this info it could be beneficial to start as it will give you something to reference later.

If the luff curve is different from what other I 17 guys are using finding out their settings may not help much.

The sailmaker may be a better source for info especially if he has made this cut of sail for other I 17 guys. Making a good sail is only part of the equation. The boat may still have to be setup to make the sail work.

As far as the question re downhaul going slack.
Essentailly this is happening on all setups except it usually isn't seen because you have alreadty applied downhaul to depower.
Or you sheet on and the sail doesn't slide down the mast and develops wrinkles and the downhaul is used to remove the wrinkles.
The amount of luff curve, the shape of the curve and the way the mast bends all play a part.

The key is to try things out and keep good notes.

Regards,
Phill

Bruce

I agree with Phil on the slack downhaul, the mainsheet tension is exerting more force on the luff of the sail than the downhaul, causing the sail to slide down the mast. This means your downhaul is ding nothing more than removing the wrinkles from the sail.

I think your problem is that the rig is overpowered. This would account for the unstableness and also that when you went for max power settings it got worse.

The mainsheet is bending the mast and flattening the sail, but the problem is that in a gust, you sheet out and the mast straightens, the sail creeps back up it and the sail gets fuller, so you have to sheet out more, or stuff into the wind to spill wind, and your full sail is high drag.

This is why the boat'goes up and down a lot'.

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with Phil on how to rectify it.

I think you need loads more downhaul, so that the mast is permanently bent and the sail flatter, this will allow you to keep your main tight (pointing ability comes from a straight leech),when a gust hits the leech will open a bit spilling wind, and if you ease the sheet the sail remains flat.

Try sailing along, pull the downhaul on to take up the slack +1 inch, then gradually pull downhaul on in 1 inch increments untill the boat becomes easy to use and the rig is stable. If at this point you can still pull on more downhaul, pull the traveller in a bit until it loses its stability(goes up and down a lot) then pull on the downhaul until stability returns. The closer in the traveller the higher you will point but the more overpowered you will be.

I would never drop the traveller down until I had full downhaul on (main sheeted bar tight 2 hands pulling the downhaul as hard as I can).

Let us know how you get on.

regards

john

P.S. dont mess with diamond wires, spreader/mast rake/rig tension yet, these will fine tune the rig I think your looking at a more fundamental problem at the moment.

Hi John,
I'm assuming the sails leach is not standing up because the mast is bending too much for the luff curve.

Bit of a gamble when we can't see the problem..

I went this way because of the sailmakers comments about "spending too much time depowering". I assumed he cut a much flatter sail.
I missed the bit about "going up and down a lot."

Regards,
Phill

Phil

Yeah, could be down to that, and as you say its hard when you can't see it. If the sail is very flat then there's not much you can do to put more shape in.

The old sail would deteriorate slowly so you get used to the soft leach and don't notice the power loss, and when you get a new sail suddenly there's loads of power and not much give in the rig so you get the 'up and downy' bit.

How's the weather down there, I havn't sailed for months its way to cold here.

John

Phill,

First of all, thanks for the interest and the 'coaching'...it is a great thing that this forum produces such valuable advice......as for me, all the info is like a big physics lab,...I try it all!

1.I bugged the sailmaker. Charlie Ogletree about mast settings when the sail was made,..here is his instructions about Diamond wire tension;

"..I will define 9 and under as light winds, 10 to 14 as medium and over 15 as heavy winds. The diamond wire tension setting is set as such
Heavy - windward wire is JUST ON THE VERGE OF being loose.
once you find this setting..
Light - loosen 4 complete turns from HEAVY setting."

...right now, I can push inward on both of my diamond wires, 16 inches up ( from the base) about 1/2 of an inch,..with effort,......this is the best I can describe the tension.

...I have not figured how to employ the sailmakers suggestions,......for if I am on the boat by myself,..driving upwind,....how do I make my way to the mast to reach up test the wire tension ??????.

...I am making an educated guess here,...wires are still very tight,..there is no way they are even close to going slack..

Leech of the sail,...I referred to the 'back'...Phill,.....new sail is about 150 sf compared to the original 160 sf......the leech is were the sail was cut....I placed the sails one on top of another to determine this.

John B.

See,...this is good information too.

Make no mistake,..the sail moves the boat,......set like a gem,......I just want your heelp about getting the 'Unirig pointing' back..

Am going out New Years day to try these settings....will be training with HArper / FX-1,...so I will have a comparison. The wind will be stronger, a true 15 - 20 all day,.....heck, it is night now and it is blowing out there!

Settings to try

1. With Mainsheet set upwind,.......max out downhaul.
...then
2. Travel in
...then
3. Travel out until boat settles down
...then
4. outhaul set to 2 inches,..instead of 1 inch

OK,....by the way,...air is about 85 degrees f. and the water about 72 degrees f.

ps. the sail dimension at the head and foot are very similar to original,.....the 'roach' was taken out of the leech in the middle 2/3rds of the sail,....giving it more of a 'wing' high aspect

..once again, keep the tips coming,...I apprieciate it..!

Happy New Years to all!

Bruce
I-17n
St. Croix, US Virgin Islands

Bruce

From Charlies diamond settings, there is no way to tell from the shore if you have the right tension. You need to take a tool on the water and adjust it out there.

Remember that the downhaul will affect the daimond tension.

So if its breezy, pull on max downhaul, sail the boat up wind, if the windward diamond is flapping then gradually tighten them (one turn at a time) untill it stops flapping, this is your base setting, (if its tight to begin with, loose one turn at a time until it flaps then tighten one turn).

John

OK,..will do

...I just might take a 2nd rider to help with this....

regards....and Happy New YEar

Bruce

Jan 1

Wind was 25 + today,....clear sky,..a beautiful day,...went out with new sail

1. The gusts would shift so that when you are on the wire and dialed in the boat would slam down from the gust before one could react,....after 10 minutes of this,..I called it a day

Bruce

winds 15 steady
went in the channel ..outside the reef,...nice rollers,...another beautiful day

- put on old sail
- did 4 races with FX-1
- Harper's FX-1 pointed me 10 degrees , at least
CHANGES
- moved forward on boat,....n/c
- moved back on boat ( foot in strap at d-board)....boat handled better,...a litle change in point,...1 degree
- lowered d-boards all the way,......no difference ( from being up 30%)
- pulled max on d-haul,....max on mainsheet,.....centered trav,.....no difference

...well you guys are correct,.the original sail has been quietly assuming a shape of its own,.....actually,..this is a good extreme weather sail ( 25+)....because it transfer so little power to the rig that while everyone else is being blown over,...you just make you way around the course...

tomoorow,..the new sail will be on.

Bruce

wind - 15 steady
waves - gentle rollers 2 ft.
another beautiful clear sky day.

2 races with Arper's FX-1

race 1
speed - great
outhaul - 1 inch
downhaul - lt to medium
trav. - near center
rotation - 35 degrees
boards - 30 % up
driver position - front foot in strap at D-board
mainsheet - max in
trapped out 100%

....I did not bother to watch the relation to the FX-1,..the I-17 was driving fast,..smooth,..sail without a wrinkle,...concentrating on the boat,...a little ' up and down', but not very much,...at the tack to the upwing mark,..I was dissapointed to see the FX-1 still outpointng me,...but HArper had fallen way back,......it turned out that his outhaul slipped to max full,.....which left him out of the first race..

Race #2
changes
outhaul - increase to 2 inches
no other changes
Results
- I-17 was steady as a rock....in puffs would just lift a hull gently and hold it,..begining to dial in,...in fact,..overstood the mark because the speed increased such that I miscalculated distance
- the FX-1 was higher,.....this time,..Harper ( if on the same 1st tack line) was 7 boat lenghts ahead,...compared to 15 boat lenghts yesterday,...

...so,. it appears that we are going down the correct road.....suggestions?....I gotta get closer than this.

...I noticed that the FX-1 really accelerates(..in puffs),..plus lifts a hull very easily,..were the -17 will not react the same..? hull design,...( round bottom vs wave piercer..)....driver are the same weight..

The FX-1 will be stable with the hull up 3-4 feet,....the I-17 does not do this well,...the 4 degree canted hulls and thin hulls make a 'happy zone' between 3 inches to 12 inches of hull rise,......any more than that the boat really slows down with increase heal angle..

Tomorrow, will be out with FX-1, N5.8,....I should be able to outpoint the N 5.8........

Comments?

...have not adjusted diamonds yet...

Bruce

Seems to me that you are doing well.

You have the Eu inter 17 version right with 13,68 sq.mtr. mainsail ?

FX-one has about 5 to 7 kg's less weight and a mainsail of 14,91 sq.mtr = 1,23 sq.mtr. more = 9 %

Are you racing under Texel rules ? If so than you have a 115/111 % time margin = 130 secs / hour . This should be far more than enough to correct out over 15 to 7 boat lengths of headway (= max 30 secs lead).

Me thinks that you should stop fiddling with the rig to get more out of it. Chances are you are only making yourself slower. "If it ain't broke don't fix it"; The results you are getting are already indicative of a boat that is well trimmed.

Besides, the FX-one should not be looking to outpoint other boats. The Flyer mother design never did that in the A-cats. It was said that the Flyer design rather sailed a little lower and footed off and still ended up first at the A-mark. Maybe you can get a little more speed out of your boat if you footed it a little off too.

Which brings me too my main point, when you boat is properly dailed in than all the speed gain must come from superior handling of the given boat. I fear that you might be tempted to enter in a pointing battle which makes you both slower without noticing it.

About :

"...I noticed that the FX-1 really accelerates(..in puffs),..plus lifts a hull very easily,..were the -17 will not react the same..? hull design,...( round bottom vs wave piercer..)....driver are the same weight"

Does he have his boards all the way down ? If so than that it the reason why his hull lifts easily. Please remember than you should only lift your boards when your boat becomes eager to lift in the hulls. In light conditions I would put the boards all the way down. 30 % up is not a recipy for all conditions, you as the skipper must make the decision when it is more advantageous to lift them up a little and when not. 15 knots of wind sound like conditions to lift them to me though so I think you did it right then. But maybe below 10 knots of wind you must put them all the way down.

The fact that he is outpointing you may also be caused by the fact that he may be pointing very high to get control of the lifting his craft in the gusts. It was the way I sailed the FX-one in the beginning. I made quite large S-curves when reacting to the strong gusts I was subjected to. When I lifted the boards I was enough in control to be confident enough to let the boat be footed off and steer more in a straight line and go faster.

Now if you encage such a hedging sailor like I was by trying to outpoint him than you sap your own speed and that may appear like if he is faster why you both are noticably slower than you could go.

Your comments about race 1 could be supportive of this viewpoint. I don't buy it that the FX-one had fallen way back as the result of a loose outhaul. It could well be that because he fell back initially because of it which caused you to sail your own race from then onward. Leading you to steer for speed and VMG rather than pointing and that this was the main reason why the FX-one fell way back.

The reason why your boat doesn't lift as easily as the FX-oen in the puffs is that we have trimmed your boat to not do that. Reason for this is that lifting reduces accelleration and overall speed. That if a strong point of your boat now, maybe you should work to use it. For example if you are sailing behind the FX-one at a few boatlengths than a possible way of passing him is to threaten him by making it appear you point higher. This will almost always caused the leader to point a little higher than he wants to. Now when the puff hits and he must point higher still to prevent lifting higher you can point down and foot it off, accellerating strongly and punch right through his lee side. Your are also using his wind shadow to prevent you from capsizing, make sure you are again heading up smoothing before you clear his wind shadow or you go over. Now you are in front and you should immediately sail your own course and give him dirty air by skeweng his wind. Btw you don't need to to his luff to give him dirty air. By being on a course just lower than his he gets bad air too.

Anyways, this is just a very specific example. A more general one would be to choose to foot your boat when you see his boat lift often. This will be like pitching your strong point"not lifting as much" agianst his only option which is to point high. Changes are he may think he is to high and will try to follow you when he boat is not setup to be footed. Even if he doesn't follow you rather than you him, he is likely to be slower if he is pointing to control his lifting, that is never a fast methode of sailing.

Also my experience with the Hobie mast is that it is extremely stiff and therefor the downhaul is difficult to handle or handle effectively. All reasons why I sailed that boat high when I sailed it and it may be points that you should exploit. Maybe even by forcing him to use them. And you would NOT be doing that by effectively giving him the initiative by following him into a pointing duel.

Especially since you are sailing a slightly heavier boats with probably a noticable smaller mainsail (about 9 % less). Effectively what he wants is you to try to beat him at his prefered courses as you are unlikely to be able too. Chance are that you'll start or be behind him trying to overtake him by superior sailing skill. This will always put you into his bad air giving you an even bigger disadvantage. What you should do now is trying to impose your preferred courses on him and continiously looking to get away from him (unless you are in front). You should find and try to exploit the strong points of your platform.

As I see it those are :
- Less heeling, better gust response. Go to the gusty area of the course unless the other side is clearly favoured.
- better cutting ability due to your bows, go to the bumpy side of the course unless the other side is clearly favoured.
- Footing of your platform when the winds are gusty and go for a good VMG as a result of higher speed rather than higher pointing.

When he then tries to cover you he will be forced to sail in a way which is less advantagious to him.

But most of all I would try to sail my won race and trust my boat to deliver when I sail it in its prefered way. I would try to stay away from pointing battles or tack duels unless I'm totally sure that I have the advantage there.

Also a 7 boat length lead is easily won back with a superior mark rounding. And we all know that mark roundings are not really easy when single handing. Go wide in and tight out. with the C-mark set all the upwind settings before rounding the mark and make sure that your are hooked on right before you head up around the bouy. It is really remarkable how easy it is to win boatlengths on a simple manouvre like this. When done right, you'll start from your opponents less and by a cutting inside you'll end up on his luff side just sligtly in front. He maybe even overshoot the mark be a few boatlengths while hastily trimming his boat for the upwind leg. When you find yourself to his luff then your opponent has a problem. You have covered him and you can defend that place all the way up to A-mark. Either he accepts this and waits for his chance a the A-mark to cut inside of you or he decides to tack away which, on a single hander, means he will be throwing away a few boatlengths of covered distance.

Short story is : If your boat behaves right don't touch it, concentrate more on maxizing what it does right by adjusting your way of sailing to it.

wouter

As strange as it may seem I found that not trapezing in this weather, making my sail very flat, pinning myself on the hulls using my legs and work to mainsheet like nobodies business will earn good results.

To hole trick is to be in total control and keep a steady albeit slower on topspeed velocity around the course. Very often the lack of control of the outers will make them overall slower although their top speed maybe momentarily higher.

As many of us know average speed is very much affective by rather short but big differencesin speed. Completely dumping a mainsail, slamming into the water while trapped and getting back up to speed again almost completely destroyes your average speed.

Numerical example

speed boat 1 (7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7) / 6 = 7

Speed boat 2 (8 +8 + 8 + 1 + 8 + 8) / 6 = 6,8

I used this trick while I was doublehanding the FX-one (with jib) against a Hobie tiger last year in a friendly stand-off.

Ofcourse than there was another reason too. The very strong winds had created a steep chop that was tripping both boats. And as the doublehanded FX-one is more dive happy than the Tiger (in my opinion) I had a problem on my hands. I decide that my worse righting to hull length ratio would only aggravate the problem, so I shouted to my crew that she had to come of the trapeze and really pin herself right next to me while I pushed myself to the rearbeam. (There may have been other reasons too) !

She effectively locked me up so that I could steer and work the mainsheet simultaniously while going for a really wild ride. She pinned herself using both hands and feet and the sidestay / hiking strap.

Naturally in the flatter areas the Tiger showed higher speed but I could blast through the chop fully powered up and could even sail a bit hotter than they could. in the end I stayed ahead of them and beat them to the agreed ending point. We did this a few times in a row for the remainder of the afternoon against the same crew. Was very good fun and i must say that Sue and I where very happy with the way we 'd made the FX-one go.

We also switched boats halveway one time but that was not a succes. The other crew demanded their Tiger back soon after that. They didn't stand a chance. So may opinion to this time is that it was not really the difference in design (FX-one wave piercer vs old school Tiger) but rather that were able to maximimize on the FX-one strong points better (and minimize it's weak points) than the Tiger crew in relation to their platform.

Wouter

Bruce

How much mainsheet tension are you using? I know that this is dificult to quantify but are you pulling it as hard as you can with one arm, are you using two arms, are you twisting your body to use your back as well as one arm, what purchase is on your mainsheet? Where does the guy on the FX1 have his traveller and how much downhaul is he using?

regards

john

Trail #4

wind - 15 +/- 2
waves - nice 2 foot rollers
another beautiful day

I was about 1/2 hour late getting off the beach,...but as I was making my way out to the course,...the other boats were coming in,...equipment failure.

So, I spent the time adjusting the diamond wires,...I did it 5 times,...so I am getting closer,..( I followed the prescribed set up,..took off 1 full turn of the turnbuckle each time,....)

I dug up the sailmakers recommendations..

C. Ogletree comments ;

" I was just going through some old papers and found your letter dates 7-26-02
with your request for tuning notes. Sorry for the delay, but here it is. I
hope it helps.

-Mast Set-Up
-Diamonds; when the you have max downhaul and mainsheet tension, the
windward diamond should be just tight, not slack. In light air you can
loosen the diamonds two turns.
-Mast Rake - around the rear beam to slightly aft of the beam. The helm
should be balanced when sailing upwind
-Mast Rotation - use the telltales on the closest to the luff of the main.
You want the rotation set so the windward telltales are always just
stalling. Rotator arm pointed at about the shroud in light conditions,
rotate it aft as wind increases max at about the rear beam. Set at 90
degrees downwind

Sail Set-Up
-Downhaul-loose in light air upwind, pull on to depower as needed. Always
max loose downwind
- Outhaul - eased so there is 2" camber in the middle of the foot, windy
conditions only 1". Downwind max ease when sailing flat, 8" when wild
- Mainsheet - upwind - tight, trim so the telltales in the middle of the
sail near the logo are flying.
-Mainsheet - downwind - trim so the telltales in the middle of the sail near
the logo are flying.

Charlie

Ullman Sails, Inc.
410 29th Street
Newport Beach, CA 92663
949-675-6970 phone
949-675-6276 fax

...so this is in line with what Phill, John and Wouter have been saying about the diamond wires.

...everyone seems to be in agreement,....except I am going to ponder on the outhaul recommendations,...I need to clarify that with the sailmaker......1 inch chamber in the foot in high winds,...that is alot less chamber than I am doing,....heck,..I am letting out 2 inches on the outhaul giving me about a 6 inch foot chamber!!! ...

...maybe this is my screw up?

MAINSHEET

I am pulling that ting more than ever,.....I take my sheet/block assembly home everytime now and give it a fresh water bath for a day or so,......so, John,..max out that thing .....?

FX-1

HArper is really improving his boat handleing,...but, the HObie folks have a web site with tips, settings,..all the litle thngs that are specific to that boat,....so one follows that.....kinda nice...

...but I have you guys,..so,..it equals out.....

..as Wouter says,..and I agree,...forget about the FX-1,..it is a differnt design,..does things differently,...rated different because of that..

...I studied the T 4.9 tips for cat rigged,....The I-17 agrees with the T 4.9 as for trav,...it likes about 4 to 6 inches out ,..at least,....I sailed ( the above wind) with trav tight,....boat 'no like',.....it feels like it is 'choked'....you know what i mean?

...comment?

Bruce
St. Croix

Bruce

6inches of draft is way too much, its best to use the draft as a measuremnt and I would totally agree with Charlies reccomendations.

I still think that if you are travelling out you should be maxxed out on downhaul.

I suspect that you are just not pulling the strings hard enough, if you don't have enough downhaul then you can't pull on enough mainsheet.

In trapezing conditions mainsheet tension should huge now if, when you pull on all the mainsheet you can (two hands,the boat is stalled out (up and down a lot) then you need to de-power, pull on downhaul (main in tight, cleat it and two hands on the downhaul as hard as you can) if its still unstable de-rotate mast towards rear beam, if its still unstable let the traveller down. let traveller down up to about 14 inches, if its still unstable then let out mainsheet until stability returns, you should have very good height and really good speed.

regards

john

John,

1. Let me detail this observation on the outhaul.

...at full tight,..when sail is full, upwind,...I estimate ( a visual here from the wire), about 2 to 3 inches of maximum chamber in the foot of the sail

...outhaul released 1 inch:
- then, when sail is full (upwind),..I estimate ( visual from wire) about 3 to 4 inches of maximun chamber on the foot of the sail

...othaul released 2 inches:
- then 4-5 inches in foot.

Gonna go out Saturday and try the formula you presented..

...thanks for the input,...and patience,...

Bruce
St/ Croix
83 degrees F. again, in the shade

Wouter,

Your desciption is an accuate one. I see you must have sailed both boats to be able to interpret exactly what was happening.

Yes, I have the Euro I-17, non-spin.

Along with John and Phill's points,...I will just handle the strong points of the I-17,...and sail that thing!

Bruce

..thanks to all

to all,

Ta Da!!!!

wind 16 - steady
water - mostly 1 ft roller,..only 2 ft in one area of the course
sky - few clouds, clear, 83 Degree F,..water 75 degree F

Race #1
mainsheet - max tight
downhaul - max tight
outhaul - under full load, 2 inch foot chamber ( which is tight!!)

board full down

Boat accelerated well, powered up, drove,..was a little unstable when wanted to lift a hull,...pointed almost withthe FX-1,...best to date.

Race 2

board up 16 inches

spedd better, power good,.settled right down,..put in about 4 inches of trav. too,...point good, right up with FX-1,...boat a little too sedate in full wind..

Race #3

Ta Da!

board up 8 inches,.....magic

I could not see FX-1, for Harper was at about at 7 oclock and at 2 boatleanghts back ( my blind side).

..I just concentrated on driving the boat in the wind conditions,..keeping in my 'groove',..concentrating and driving hard,..

..I looked over my shoulder about 3 times,...each time the big yellow sail was about the same spot,.....

so,..

..I feel that the I-17 can go another notch into 'turbo' range,...but am NOT COMPLAINING!!

Phill,..--thanks

John-...thanks

Wouter-...thanks

Harper-...thanks

Charlie-....thanks

It is a world of difference to have someone to tune with,...before,..I would just be out there by myself,...going along....

Unirig cats rule,.....really.

Bruce
St. Croix
'Love Never Fails'
I-17 Euro
,

That is the spirit ! You took the starting point settings and and experimented it into a more refined setting.

Ofcourse the settings we gave you were good estimates but not to be expected to be the best settings.

Congratulations on your last race #3, can you tell us if you can repeat this result as to make sure that it wasn't Harper who had a bad race.

I must say if you can repeat it than your I-17 has some really sweet settings. You don't outperform a lighter boat with more sailarea easily.

Ohh and one final thing, be prepared to loose your tuning advantage once mr. Harper discovers this forum and the pointers being given. Naturally these will also work on his boat, the FX-one. I know because I tried several of them.

Wouter

Wouter and all,

1. I am going to remeber that the next time we practice.

2. I encourage Harper because he has really grown into the FX-1 quite well,....the FOX and him did not mix well,....he handle that boat very well...

3. I told him I was seeking help on this forum,...so, I assume he is learning too.

4. The BIG International Regatta, Feb 15,16 &17 is the target, ....a St Croix cat has not won in 8 years......the St. Thomas cats come and take it,.......last year, again, a St. Thomas P19 took 1st,..I was 2nd ( a looooong way back)

so,..
.. I need myself ,...and Harper at the best we can be..!

thanks to all.....

Bruce
St. Croix

Harper = vicatman right ?

Even so, lets get those boats of you ready to give the boys from St. Thomas a proper scare !

Wouter

Wouter,

yes,...vicatman = Harper...

Another ino bit,...Charile Ogletree made my sail about 7-8 sf SMALLER!.....giving it a higher aspect ( ..more wing like),...because the consisant 15+ winds here, he was correct,..I would not miss it,....which may explain why the fX-1 is 'up and down,...doing S's".....while the I-17 just digs in and goes...

Bruce

ps.....thanks again

Well give Vicatman my regards, I think he knows my name.

Brobu I din't believe that sailarea is causing the FX-1 to be up and down and doing S's when the I-17 digs in and goes. All thsoe little bits that make your boat go will work on the FX-one too. Ofocurse with different settings.

In 15 knots of wind your smaller main can be as fast as the bigger FX-one main (on the same ast height) because your righting moments are pretty equal. That can be a result of the smaller more wing like sail. In extreme case you can even be faster but I don't think your rig is enough different from teh FX-one rig on this.

However, I do think that the FX-one mast is rather stiff and so you may be ale to trim your sail flatter than teh FX-ones and that might make you faster in the high winds. Havinf said this I don't know how stiff the Nacra mast is, normally the are rather flexible, so ....

By the way if Charlie made your sail 7 sq. ft smaller than an original EU I-17 sail than you have 2 sq. mtr. less sailarea than the FX-one of Harper !!

Is that what you are saying ?

If that is true than you really showed some good speed with that I-17 the last time.

Your new Texel rating should be 117 instead of 115 that the original version has now. Compare that to the FX-one rating of 111. He has to give you (117/111 * 3600)-3600 = 195 sec / hours = 3 min 15 sec. / hour.

Consider that !

Wouter

Wouter and all,

I know that the Caribbean Trade Winds are perfect Cat sailing grounds, and Charlie Ogletree was right by reducung the sail area,(...after a discussion, his final words were, 'just try it..")

...made a believer out of me,...instead of fiddleing with this and that,...once the sail is set up,....to tell you the truth, I thought the I-17 was messed up somewhere because it was NOT reacting to the wind like the FX-1,.....now I realizing that the I-17 ( with reduced sail area) is just dialed in to the local race conditions.

So, it is an important issue to tell the sail maker your wave/wind/driver weight conditions,...then let them go to work....( at 230 pounds dry, I am no light driver...!)

I put the new sail on the old sail at a tennis court,.....the head and foot panel dimension was very similar. The difference are in panels # 3 to 7 ( with #1 being the head, #8 the foot),...the leech( new sail), is between 4 to 6 inches shorter than the old sail,...so the s.f. may be more ( lets say 20 ft x 5 inches) than I reported.

This may be an idea for the F16 HP,..design a heavy weather main that keeps the speed up and eliminates the unstableness associated with light boats/large sail area/big winds.....just a thought.

Downwind, the boats are ( right now) equal. The FX-1 / HArper follows the 90 degree formula,.....I follow the 170 degree regiment

I became a believer of the 170 degree downwind in the last St. Croix International Regatta,...the only time the P19 DID NOT WIN ( he had a 2nd and 7 bullets) was when I put the I-17 in 170 degree downwind mode,...not only did I get a first, I was 5 boat lenghts from beating them on REAL TIME in a 45 minute race( it was light air that race,... 5-6 kmph)

thanks for the help,
Bruce