Membership will be official now

A few questions

1. Must you own the boat before applying?
a. What if a person is awaiting on the builder?
b. Can they be considered?

2. The required information name, boat, club, location ect... Will go directly to the chairman and NOT to the local reps?

3. Once the chairman recieves the information, will he or she point the person requesting membership to the local rep?

I will post more as soon as I think of them.

Answers :

No, but you must own it before voting.

Entering the commitment of purchase is considered ownership. So as soon as you have made a downpayment or signed a order contract you are considered to be an owner of an F16 boat. Membership is applicable from that moment onward.

This is not ruled upon and it is free to the person seeking membership how or through whom he or she gets the information to the F16 authority (also known as the international F16 class cel or project)

I would welcome it very much if the local reps stimulated membership and even handled some of the work involved.

That'll allow me to spend more time on things like the website and participating my own F16 calender.

One thing to note thought is that one is only a member after the F16 class authority by way the chairman has confimed receiving the required info in good order.

We must take care not to end up with conflicting procedures.

Yes, that will be part of the standard welcome package; together with probably a list of nearby boats. As in supplying the "boat type/club name/club location" combination.

I'm trying to implement a single point of contact for new owners in the international body that we can then use to refer the new owners to projects and fellow sailors nearby. As you see the Class authority cel (international body) is working as a communication core again.

Keep them coming !

Wouter

I will post more as soon as I think of them.

Clarification, please.

What boats are eligible for this formal membership and voting privileges? Only the closed class boats? Or does it also include the boats in the F-16 Open Class?

Specifically, is it only the owners of the Stealth F16, the Blade F16 and the Taipan Ff16 that are eligible for membership and voting? Or is it also open to owners of the Taipan 4.9 (with F16 spin) and the Spitfire, both of which are grandfathered into the class but only into the F16 Open Class?

Mary,

That is a very good point you bring up there.

One thing to note however is that the Taipan 4.9 + spi is a not grandfathered but has been assigned the status of foundation boat. Meaning that it is part of the (closed) F16 fleet. Just like the Stealth R design.

So the (closed) F16 class entcloses :

Taipan 4.9 + spi = foundation boat
Stealth R = foundation boat
Stealth F16
Blade F16
Taipan F16

+ All other full compliant boats that sail as an F16 (Johns nacra F16, and Davids Mystere F16; both modified to F16 rules)

In principle we do not allow (voting) membership to other dispensated boat or grandfathered boats. It would be a little funny to have Spitfire, FX-one , I-17 and what not boat owners vote on F16 class rules. It would be the perfect way to spike us. Also we will keep the inclusiveness to these boat owners with repect to sailing and racing but having them vote on our class rules is going a bit too far.

That leaves us with just 1 problem though.

The mosquito F16 guys.

The are full compliant in all aspects except minimum weight. I think they are about 5 kg underweight in total. We dispensated them for it because of other dimensions that are smaller on these boats as well like overall width.

In principle they would be treated like the spitfire sailors, but that would be really unfair to them as the mosquito sailors have helped us so much over the years and they are fully into F16. None of them ever caused us any troubles. They are the perfect example of "don't whine, just sail it".

I would consider it an insult to them if we would exclude them. I will therefor move to include them in the listing of boats owners allowed to be members. I will think of the best way to make their status more firm. Give me a couple of days on that.

Wouter

1. So when are we required to put foward a letter to the chairman to request official membership?

2. We will have to do this on a yearly basis?

3. We will also have to do this on any change? ie diferent boat ect ect.

When ever a sailor wants to become a member with voting rights on the F16 class rules

No, just make sure that you have a online F16 race result to secure your next year membership.

If you are smart then each sailor will mail in a link to such a result.

If one changes boats or adress or whatever then yes a notification of that needs to be send to Formula16class(at)hotmail.com . How else are we going to keep the listed updated.

Note that one gets a different boat that (eventually) the new owner needs to request a new measurement form as well ? In time this will become a required practice as well. By sending in the changes to the class authority we can advice the new owner on that. Otherwise he or she may think that the certificate of the former owner can be carried over. If it is done right than the new owner can get a new certificate without having to have the boat remeasured.

As most things, this links in with our future path.

You guys wanted it being done in official ways , well here it is.

Wouter

The "30 boat open regatta rule" seems excessively high to me. We don't all live in areas where there are large cat regattas. None of the normal cat regattas in Scotland get that many boats - 15 or 20 is more typical. There was only one race in Scotland in 2004 which got more than 30 entries (the Loch Ness Monster long distance race had 32) but even that wouldn't have qualified because only 27 boats raced. And it isn't an annual event.

I think this needs to be reviewed.

George Malloch
Stealth 502

George,

What number would work for you ?

I don't want to count club races and such. There should be some promotion value coming of the requirement or participation in a F16 event. So in some way we must require that the open regatta in which is participated has some regional promo value.

I'm open to suggestions.

Wouter

I agree the 30 boat is kinda high. Maybe cut it in half to make it alot more easier. Its easier to start small and work your way up.

Wouter, I want to make sure I understand your "definition."

If a club has five F-16's and they have "declared F-16 events" attended by only those five boats, you just have to race with your fleet once a year to maintain your F-16 class eligibility?

OR if you go to one open class event that has at least 30 boats of all different kinds and you register as an F-16 as opposed to, say, a Taipan 4.9 with spinnaker, and even though there are no other F-16's at the event, that also will continue your membership eligibility for the F-16 class?

Is that the intent? If so, can you explain the purpose behind the intent?

What happened to what you said about treating all the F-16 owners equally as members of the class, whether they race or not?

(Sorry, Wouter, I just can't keep myself from asking questions. It's a curse.)

Ohh Mary, No problem, you know I'm a sucker for answering questions.

Anyways; here a few answers.

Those 5 crews would have to organise a F16 event and invite all others and then hold the event. Yes. an initiative like that would be enough to earn a membership for next year. And any other F16 crews participating beyond those 5 would earn a renewal as well. Having such a rule will stimulate both the organising of events and stimulate attendence. That is the goal.

Indeed you have to register and race as an F16. (And F16 in prefered over F16hp). This is to allow owners that live far away from grouping of F16's to achieve their renewal as well. And it will get F16's to larger regional events.

I never said such a thing. I said that the F16 as a class wants to facilitate both racing and recreational sailing of F16's. Simply participating in an event is not the same as actively racing a boat.

You only have to show up and participate. Events like Hagar are available everywhere and can be considered as a recreational touring event as well.

We do is it needed to have such a requirement.

Simple to prevent that all kind of boat owners become a members and will do their best to vote down any chance or amendment.

I'm thinking about for example strickt One-Design Taipan 4.9 sailors that have no intention what so ever to ever sail with a spinnaker but could become members otherwise. Or Prindle 16 sailors or any other boat that fully complies with the class rules.

We don't prevent them from becoming members, but they have to show that they are serious F16 sailors by sailing at least ones a year as an F16 boat with "first in wins" or using the F16 handicap. This should be a simple requirement to satisfy.

Wouter

Every time you answer something, you create another question. Now I wonder what is the difference between registering as an F16 or an F16hp? According to your definition in the class rules, they are the same thing, so why is it better to register as F16?
2.1.1 The full name of the class is "Formula 16 class for High Performance Catamarans"; and her official abbreviations in order of preference are Formula 16, F16, Formula 16 HP and F16 HP."

I would think it would be better to register as F16hp, because eventually somebody might form a Formula 16 class for Low-Performance Catamarans.

Wouter,

I wasn't happy with your original edict but your answers to Mary's question make me angry I'm afraid.

I don't think the minimum number rules is required at all. If you own an F16 boat you should be eligible for the association. End of story. The obect of a class association is to promote the class - having rules that say "you can't be a member, you haven't done the right races" isn't going to encourage anyone.

Why am I angry now? Not only do I have to sail an event with 30 boats in it butI have to sail using the F16 handicap of 0.98 instead of the Stealth R handicap of 1.02. Hell, I can't sail to 1.02 and now you want me to give up another three basis points? Unbelievable!

I can tell you now that I'll be voting against this. You will be putting it to a vote of all F16 owners won't you? The ones who are currently members. Of course you will:

"1 vote per boat owner for important votes ". I think you'll lose.

George Malloch
Stealth 502

Wouter,

I'm only an aspiring owner, not an actual owner, so make of this what you will...

After your first response to George, I had the impression that your main objective was to try to motivate people to assist in promoting the class. Personally I don't think that is a good basis on which to restrict membership. I think as long as an owner of a compliant boat demonstrates a genuine desire to sail as F16, you will gain little by placing additional burdens on them.

However your response to Mary raised a different issue, which is relationship of F16 to OD classes within the F16 family. I can understand your concern that subgroups may influence the class in ways not necessarily in the interests of the class overall. And I can imagine that this may be particularly important while F16 is still in a fairly early stage of development.

I think this issue needs more discussion. I don't have a clear view myself on the best way to deal with this, but so far I'm not convinced that the restrictive membership policy you've suggested is the only or best tool for the job.

Interested to hear other views on this.

Mark.

mary I wrote "(And F16 in prefered over F16hp)".

Meaning to say "F16 IS prefered over F16HP"

So both are indeed the same but the names F16 and Formula 16 are to be prefered.

I want to created unity in the identifier and eventually drop the "hp" extension all together. The 'hp' is a historical left-over from the past were there was talk of another class association being formed in French. This turned out to be rumour and so we could call ourselfs F16 and be done with it.

Also all our handicap ratings and boat names are using the F16 identifier, without the "hp" extension" even the websites and mailadresses are F16 and Formula 16.

If somebody forms a class of slow F16 boats than they can call it F16 "LP"

Wouter

George,

You can't blame F16 class or us for the troubles of using the ISAF rating system. Besides as far as I know If you race that Stealth R solo you race of the same rating as well, so no difference there.

Also, from my perspective you have a choice indeed. Either we all pay some 50 bucks for a membership so I, Phill and others can recouperate some of the costs we made on your behalve or you can honour our volunteer work by entering at least one event per year.

I can fully understand that you may have different idea's but getting angry at me or the other volunteers will not be the way to sort a positive effect. Nobody can treat this class as something that can be taken for granted, as something that is just here to please them without them having to make a single effort themselfs. It doesn't work that way.

I and others do this because we want to grow this class and progres what it stands for, we put alot of time and effort in and we have never demanded any return from you guys. Now, we can do this in several ways. One is to have everybody pay a membership and work through the hassle of having to have a bookkeeping and living up to financial laws. OR we make the membership free or charge but demand some show of commitment to the class.

Otherwise everything becames a little to easy. Not to mention unstable because we'll open ourselfs up from take-overs from within. And I sure as hell don't feel like coughing up 150 dollars each year to maintain the www.formula16.com and www.formula16.org adresses when you are too lazy to come to one event per year. I'm willing to do that when I see some activity in the class and sailors hooking up for events and building the class together.

Now if there ae serious problems to meet the requirement then I say talk about it and work something out. I'm happy to hear your counterproposals. I'm open to suggestions.

Ohh before I forget you can also win membership by volunteer work. Like maintaining the website or making a PDF brochure. It doesn't have to be much just little things.

We don't want to pressure anybody but we do really want to see some active members.

Wouter

Indeed Mark, you give a few accurate describtions of what is intended.

I would liek to underscore ones more that there are multiple reasons for the setup. No single one is dominant.

To all I would direct that all the work that was done already in the class needs to be rewarded in some way. The best way to do that is to support the volunteers and show your appreciation of the work they do and have done by coming out to the events or show the F16's in local open class regatta's.

No volunteer is doing this because it makes them rich or because trying to satisfy everybody is such enjoyable work. We all do this because we really want to see this work. Because we really have a good concept and setup here that is worth working for.

The Gulfport group worked at getting the annual A-cat/F16 championship established. The Aussie sailors organised the state challenges. I did the DCC thing last year. Scott McCook did the Asian challenge. Now Bard Louis in Netherlands has worked to get the 2005 F16 Dutch event calender sorted and accepted. He is now working to organise a trim clinic for us Dutch F16 sailors. What better to reward their efforts then by participating or participating an open regatta were the volunteers participate as well. So they see some return for their efforts. We can of course ask for money as membership fee but my experience is that volunteer consider participations or additional volunteers as alot more reward for their own efforts than an arguable small amount of money.

Like I said we are not doing this for money or such gain. We all are doing this for the smiles on other peoples faces. For the sight of seeing several F16's on the start line. And the membership requirements aims to adress this in a more formula way.

Wouter

I have held membership in many class associations as well as several yacht clubs over the years and there has never been any restriction as to who "qualifies" for membership - you pay your annual fee and you are welcomed. There has never been any problem (perceived or real) from any "pressure" group trying to influence the association/class/club one way or another, the majority of the membership has always been "members" who had the best interest of the organisation at heart and any "trouble makers" were always seen early for what they were. It would just seem to me that to make membership "conditional" on ANY criteria (other than being financial) just tends to limit the interested parties input and suffers the risk of making it eletist as well as limiting numbers.
Any membership fee doesn't have to be "restrictive". It doesn't have to be $50 or $100 or $1,000 per year, it could be a nominal amount just for the formallity. If, to become a member it was required to pay an annual subscription of, say $15.00, it then formalises a persons membership but it doesn't inhibit anyone from actually joining, and then the only way to have input into the "running" of the association and to be able to vote would to be a paid up financial member.
Thats the way that associations have worked "forever", do we have to reinvent the wheel??
If you really want to change the format of the association away from the way that you have formed it Wouter, and bring it into line with all other "formalised" associations, then there is no other way than to go down the track of having a constitution, class rules, and regulations. Trying to make
"membership" dependent on this and that, but having no constitution etc or annual fee, is fraught with so many pit falls that it will have you waking up at night in a sweat thinking " Oh why, why, why."

Hi Mark and others,
Just my thoughts on the subject :
"After your first response to George, I had the impression that your main objective was to try to motivate people to assist in promoting the class. Personally I don't think that is a good basis on which to restrict membership. I think as long as an owner of a compliant boat demonstrates a genuine desire to sail as F16, you will gain little by placing additional burdens on them."
Guys, If a F16-compliant boat "demonstrates a genuine desire to sail as F16", why would such a sailor have difficulty in attending ONE regatta a year as F16 ? If he sails his boat WITH SPINNAKER in any ONE regatta in open class, or in any F16 organised event, he qualifies. I can`t see this as placing additional burden on him to attend events. Personally I`d have made it 3 events per year.

"I can understand your concern that subgroups may influence the class in ways not necessarily in the interests of the class overall. And I can imagine that this may be particularly important while F16 is still in a fairly early stage of development."
I don`t even think that it`s because the class is young that this issue has arisen, quite opposite, I think it has come about because the class is now attracting the attention of many who show no commitment to the class in any way, yet have an overwhelming desire to have a say in how things get run. It`s not about the fact that any one OD class could "hijack" the class (although this could happen), it`s more to weed out those who have lots to say but do nothing.
I wish my yacht club were run this way - when a member I`ve never seen stands up at the AGM with lots to say about how the club is run because he pays his miserable little annual fee, I`d love to ask him how many regattas he attended or supported in any way, and then tell him to **** off.

I think this would be an ideal way to separate the members from the spectators. It also keeps a system in place which prevents an OD class with a lot of members who sail their boat actively as OD, but never sail with spinnakers, never attend F16 organised events (even though these events are organised and held in their country by a group of "not-quite-full-F16" sailors), but then shout the loudest when decisions within the class don`t quite go their way. Personally I think these sailors should have NO say in anything F16 related until they start showing some form of commitment or involvement.

I think the F16 class is unique in the way it is run - do the F18 sailors get to have input and vote on decisions, or even make suggestions ? We must remember that this is NOT a OD class, it`s a mix of several OD classes, one-off`s and home-built boats, and can`t be managed the way you would a OD class.

I sail a boat that has dispensation and must therefore be re-evaluated as to whether we are included in F16 on an annual basis, in terms of the class rules. The way I make sure that my boat has a chance of staying in the F16 class is to be an active sailor and promoter of the F16 class, without doing so I would just be dead wood, and would not recieve dispensation the following year. This is why many classes of boat that were given dispensation in the early days of the class have not been re-granted this status, because they were INACTIVE.

I would seriously question anyone`s motives to want to have a say in how things get run, without so much as showing up for one regatta in a year.
Hell, you guys are lucky I`m not Chairman !

Steve

If there is an appropriate "constitution" for the class, all the objectives, rules, regulations, as well as the way in which the class is governed, and the directions that the class can move, etc is all spelled out in black and white. If the constitution is written correctly it becomes the total "protection" of the goals, ideals, dimensions, motivations etc of the "class" and makes it "safe" from ANY one or group who may try to "sabotage" it, either from within or without. It also provides the foundation means for the class to grow and proliferate. Any "association without an appropriate constitution, tends to become disjointed, arbitary, and often will eventually tear itself apart through conflicting direction opinions.

Don't forget to apply for these memberships !

If you want to have your voted counted you MUST apply and succesfully acquire this F16 membership !

Wouter

Steve,

No disagreement with your general sentiments. My concern is that the proposed rule is going to be harder for some people to satisfy than others. For those near existing concentrations of F16s, or just close to large cat fleets in general, they may satisfy the rule every time they go sailing. But others may have to drive very long distances, maybe even cross national borders to find a qualifying race.

To answer your question "why would such a sailor have difficulty in attending ONE regatta a year as F16", what happens when the first F16 turns up in New Zealand (outstanding opportunity for F16 development btw) and races first to finish against the small emerging F18 fleet there sailing out of Royal Akarana? As I understand it, this owner would not be eligible for F16 class membership. I don't see why that's a good situation.

There is no doubt that encouraging people to be actively involved in the class is absolutely a good thing. I'm just not sure that trying to legislate for it is necessarily the best way to do that.

Mark.

Wouter, how do you plan to contact the F16 owners to get them to become members of the class -- and to explain to them the requirements of membership?

Are you using mail, e-mail? In general, most of the sailors we know do not frequent forums, so I assume that would be true of F16 sailors, too.

I know Rick does not even know about this membership thing, and the forum is on his own web site.

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Rick

The preliminary answer to this question in contained in Wouter's original post in this topic. As he said, a more formal explanation will shortly be forthcoming.

It is not the chairmans responsibility to contact the owners, its the other way around.

But, Mark, that does not address the problem of how Wouter is going to contact all the F16 owners. Rick was just an example of why a forum is definitely not the way. It is only a supplement to the primary way, which has to involve personal contact -- face-to-face, phone, e-mail or mail.

Hmmmm. I guess that depends on whether or not he wants members.

I can't get into my opinions about the membership "plan" because they might create controversy, and I am told that controversy is counterproductive right now. Maybe the climate will be better in the fall.

If he chose to be the chairman, he has no option. He has to support and accept the members. All he is doing is making sure, the F16 members participate activley and he just collects the info. That cant be to hard or imposible to do.

It is just like almost everything in life. If you want to keep practicing in a specific field, you must maintain a minimum qualification.