Membership will be official now

You can't collect information from people who do not know you are collecting it.

Because of the forums right? Well what if he is collecting it via other ways? ie, emails, phone calls, faxes, smoke signals, letters ect...

Right, Robi. That's exactly what I asked Wouter -- how he is going to do it.

Hi Mary, yes you are correct. I was answering Rick's question, not yours.

On the issue you've raised, my guess is that in the first instance Wouter would make use of the same communication channel he has been using to connect with the F16 community for the past 3.5 years - the official class forum.

No doubt once formal membership is in place he would be able to contact members directly (of course he can't do that at the moment for the very reason that formal membership doesn't yet exist - hence the move in that direction I guess).

However for the moment I presume that anyone with a particular interest in the class would be using the forum to keep up to date with current developments.

But I should let him speak for himself. Especially since I don't even own an F16 .

Mark.

Thank you Mark,

You gave the exact same answers I would have given. Thank you for taking care of that.

Indeed, the F16 forum is the official communication form of the F16 class. It even says so in the class rules. I live by the principle that anybody who is interested in the F16 class will at least tune in to this forum once in awhile.

And indeed, how can I contact "members" when they have not identified themselfs to me in the first place ? This is, again, indeed one of the reasons to form the formal membership list.

Also I'm not going to call, fly-over to face-to-face them, snail mail or spend many e-mails finding the lastest current adress of potential members. That is a huge time if not money investment that I'm not willing to make personally and I guess everybody seriously interested in the membership will find their way to the me on their own devices. Also Robi is helping out by face-to-face the sailors attending the events like Gulfport. This seems like the role a local class organisation should play.

I this case I also think we must remember that the members themselfs are requested to invest some efforts themselfs. I'm doing this as a hobby and because I believe in the enjoyment of sailing these boats. That doesn't mean that I enjoy chasing down people and handling all personal affairs for them. Sorry, I rather go out sailing myself.

Wouter

Mary,

You may give your opinion on this forum, that is fine. I wouldn't dream of banning that. I just requested that it doesn't include items that are obviously misleading to new members. Statements like "... there is no F16 sailing worth mentioning in Florida ..." Or that hooters/furling headsails are banned, both of these statements are don't do justice to the what is true.

Of course I also would like to keep the discussion flowing as I use that to finalize the membership document and regulations. Obviously comments that only state that something is very wrong don't help me. Withous specifying an workable alternative I have no choice but to discard such a comment in favour of the current setup.

I give everybody the opportunity to give input but it must contain some new idea or feature to be valuable.

Of course giving your opinion with some new proposals and ideas can never be controversial. Especially when a mild style of writing is used as well.

With respect to your statement :"Hmmmm. I guess that depends on whether or not he wants members."

That is a example of a statement that is not very helpful. Of course I want to see a large membership listing but I'm limited in the available resources because I do this as a hobby and not as a full time occupation. Actively chasing down every body is not something that I can do right now with the other issues than I'm working on now. Besides I think that members can be expected to show a minimal level of effort to become a VOTING member. Mostly because I expect all voting members to educate themselfs properly on any voting issue and that takes some personal effort as well.

The second statement of your post :

"I can't get into my opinions about the membership "plan" because they might create controversy, and I am told that controversy is counterproductive right now. Maybe the climate will be better in the fall. "

Is also a bit manipulative. I never banned you from given your opinion. I only asked if you could reword the questions and opinions in such a way that it didn't create the controversies that we've seen a few weeks ago. You know I'm a sucker for some hard hitting statements as well and I too had to tone down for this forum. If I can do it, then ... ?

So please give us your opinions

Wouter

Collection proces :

Using the forum to call for sailors to request memberships regulary over the coming months.

Receiving membership applications via Formula16class(at)hotmail.com

Processing them.

Over time mouth-to-mouth will start kicking in as well and the memberships will keep rolling in

Anybody hwo has not seen the forum post or hasn't received the mouth-to-mouth at events is either not seriously interested or doesn't go to events. I have doubt wether these sailors are very valuable as voting members. Sorry.

Also as stated early I'm under the impression that a US class is being formed. I think this "getting the membership out" is an thing that is perfectly suited to the local organisations. I seem to remember you wanted to be part in starting up this organisation so maybe I should ask how YOU are going to it ?

Wouter

Asking financial membership fees or not

The choice for not having the normal (or conventional) membership fee setup is that that is often more trouble than it is worth. Especially in the beginning of a class.

Example : I order to be allowed to receive money from members and use it several nations in the world demand that you are officially registered at some government agency, that you pay renewal fees, maintain a board of officials and that you do a book keeping that is suitable to inspection.

I've done this before in two instances and I really don NOT want to do this when I can help it. Right now in the F16 we have no need for big financial support. We'll probably ask for some donations to maintain and spice up the website and such but that is less than just maintaining registration in for example The Netherlands. I seriously do not have anytime running a fully verifiable membership fee system nor do I enjoy such work at all. It always leads to lots of compliants and most notibly it leads to grandstanding members who think they have a right to demand everything they desire because they parted by some 30 bucks or something. I refer to Steve's comments. I've seen this happen often enough and I really have no taste to waste my spare time like that. I'm much better off spending that time in activities that actually grow the class.

So I won't do that on a international level. This doesn't mean however that local class organisations aren't allowed to register themselfs, pay all the duties, work-out all the requirements, satisfy them and handle the paying members. You guys are free to do that. However, this set up is fully contained within the local classes and the international voting membership is complete independent from that.

Yes we do things differently than other classes and we have good reasons for that. Our track record speaks for itself. 3 independent builders with 3 independent F16 models a 4th is on the way, world penetration. We must take care to realize that this unconventional setup did allow us to achieve that. I for one am more than happy to continue with it and milk it some further. I don't see any merit in ANY conventional class setup. Besides it wouldn't fit the F16 class well, our designs are different and so are we. Who else can offer a full carbon mast for 700 pounds (1000 Euro's/1300 US$) ? Who else offers the same performance per buck as we do and all over the world as well ? I really haven't seen any reason why we should abandon our succes setup now in favour for a more conventional setup that so much did NOT work for other classes.

But to both Darryll and others I say, setup up your local class structure along the lines you favour and proof us wrong. You are welcome to do that. But I'm NOT going to do it. I don't have the time for it, I don't see the need for it and my activities do not require such a setup. So I'm the wrong person to talk to here. Get into contact directly with your local F16 sailors and convince them to pay membership fees to you in return for which you will build the local class for them.

For centuries trains have used wheels to move along, since a decade engineers are working on magnetic levitation so that trains of the future are more efficient energy wise, less noisy, faster, smoother in the ride and can carry more weight. Are we to tell these guys that they have it all wrong because wheels have worked forever ? What would such an attitude have done to catamaran design over the last 20 years ? Would F16 ever have formed in such a enviroment ? Sorry Darryl, nice punch line but short on workable content.

You have misunderstood the situation. I DON'T want to change the format of the association, just make it more formal. I REALLY DON'T want to bring it more in line with other organisations; I don't think they work well. Example the F20 class was without a class board for some 10 months, and nearly died, because they couldn't find volunteers to replace the outgoing ones. Problems like that, the F16 structure was designed to handle such "signs of our times" and grow nevertheless. We seem to have done just that since our inception. It served us very well so why should we consider downgrading to an setup that is of the past ?

Thank you Darryl, I have a completely different opinion and I'm willing to take the risk and so to are the other founders. As we created this class and builded it up from scratch I think we have some background on which to base such a different opinion.

I really don't see any future problems of this kind. All I see is a class that does what needs to be done an d nothing more. This is most cost effective to members and already they get one of the best designed catamarans in the world with events like Gulfport 1-up championship and the DCC or Australian/Asia F16 challenges.

So I repeat. You are all free to set up local organisations along the lines you think best, I'm anxious to be proven wrong but the international organisation will not go to a more conventional setup for the foreseeable future because I don't have the time for that nor a sufficient number of members to pay for it and I'm not going to pay for it out of my own pocket .

Wouter

Wouter, as I have told you, you are your own worst enemy when it comes to provoking controversies.

I did not say anything about F-16 sailing in Florida, that I can recall or find. Maybe that was Rick. I said in a brief parenthetical once that the F16 class has not yet gotten going in the United States. But I also said that the Blade being manufactured here is going to be a big help.

I did not say anything about the Hooter being "banned" by the class. I questioned the mid-girth measurement requirement which seemed to effectively preclude Hooters. It seemed that the mid-girth requirement was really only adopted by the F16 class because it makes sail measuring more efficient because then measurers can use the ISAF sail-measuring guidelines. For a headsail it seems as though the important thing is to make sure that all the headsails fit within the maximum sail area. It just seems silly to have a measurement rule that precludes a smaller, flatter headsail that is probably slower.

I also added that Calvert now says that he thinks he can build a Hooter-type, furling headsail that will work with the mid-girth rule. So maybe it is a non-issue. We shall see, probably at Rick's expense for the experimentation. And depending upon the results of Hooters racing against spinnakers, this issue might be revisited in the future. No point in discussing it until there is some comparative data on windward-leeward courses, with the headsails only being used on the leeward courses.

Regarding the formalizing of membership, I already gave you all my suggestions and opinions in a private e-mail. Would you prefer that I reprint that here on the forum? Or would it be "not helpful"? I'm never quite sure.

My appologies if I contributed statements to you that were not yours.

Wouter

I never get tired of saying "I told you so!"

I TOLD YOU that HRH King Weezer was never going to give you the oportunity to run your own class.
Don't you just love how he uses the Royal "WE" whenever he issues one of his edicts?
He just stated that he was not going organize an association "on an international level".
He keeps whining about how hard HE has worked to form the Class and how NOBODY knows as much
as HE does and NOBODY else is qualified to make ANY decisions about the class.
Absolute power corrupts absolutly.

What is you are "joining"?
The Class rules are about the design of the boat and have nothing to do with a Class Association.
Where are the Association Rules posted?
How can you have an official Class Association when there are no official Class Association rules?
How can you have a membership in something with no rules?
What are the officers?
How do you choose officers?
How long do they serve?
How do you you change the Class rules?
How do you hold championships?

The big question:
HOW DO THE MEMBERS VOTE WOUTER OUT WHEN THEY ARE TIRED OF HIM?

If I were Wouter or one of the "Class Officials" I would be concerned about my legal liabilities under Wouter's informal Association model.

Take the worst case scenario, where someone drowns competing in a "F16 Association" sanctioned event somewhere in the USA. Without the protection of a properly incorporated Association, with appropriate Public Liability Insurance, there is a good chance that the local Class official and Wouter, as Class "Chairman", will be personally sued for all they are worth by any half smart lawyer.

No doubt Association laws vary from state to state, and country to country, but the legal principles are the same. I suggest that Wouter is taking a big risk if he is prapared to ignore those laws.

It is all about risk management and the first step is to set up a properly incorporated Association, at least at National level, with public officials elected in the usual democratic manner.

For all I know Phil may have already formalised an Australian F16 Association. I hope so.

Phil Edwards

Hi Sam, so glad you`re back, we`ve missed you. No, really. It makes the forum really interesting when you add your valuable contributions. Maybe a good idea to lurk around the Open Forum, or no, wait, why don`t you start a Hobie 17 Forum where you can slate every other type and make of boat, and anyone interested (ie no-one) can read all about it.
14 of your most recent 25 posts are all anti-Wouter or anti-F16, man, you must have some serious issues to be so passionately involved in something that, wait, hang on, you`re not ACTUALLY involved in !

Here`s a mind-shift for you: If the MEMBERS weren`t happy with the class setup or Wouter`s or anyone else`s contribution or involvement in the class, they would TELL him about it. Wouter doesn`t make decisions without CONSULTING ALL OTHER OWNERS OF F16 BOATS WORLDWIDE for their opinions first - That, in my opinion, is what makes him open to verbal abuse by twisted individuals with nothing better to do. Then, if he doesn`t get consensus on the matter, refers it to the FOUNDER MEMBERS (ie those who CREATED the class) for a decision. Since they CREATED the class, one would think they have a right to decide in what direction it goes. He also asks for the vote of those who are INVOLVED in promoting the class in their respective regions / countries.
Why does Wouter put in all this time and effort ? I would guess it comes from a passion about unifying different but similar designs into a framework similar to F18, one that is not controlled by a few manufacturers but by the sailors.

Why do YOU put in all this time & effort ? This one I gotta hear.

Steve

You wont hear it Steve, seems to me this Samevans is nothing but a troll. You should do a brief search to know what a troll is. He comes in here and personally attacks Wouter and his ways of doing business. I have yet to see a post from this individual with intentions on stepping up, atleast at the local level.

Yet again I get called rude on another post I made, but then again these personal vendettas against Wouter keep flying around on this FORUM.

You know lately i've read some pretty weird stuff on this site but the messages from Sam takes the biscuit ! Sam's personal attack on Wouter is pretty SAD. Wouter puts a lot of time and effort into this Association - UNPAID - and for someone to attack him like that is totally unnecessary - GROW UP SAM ! However upon further thought Phil may have raised an interesting point. My local sailing club in Scotland felt it necessary to change its status to a "Limited Liabilty Company" to protect its office bearers from this ever increasing litigious society that we seem to be importing from the USA so ....
Why is it most of the people, apart from Wouter, who contribute to this forum like to raise PROBLEMS ? Which faamous person said " There's NO problems, ONLY SOLUTIONS" He was right ! come on lets not have so much negativaty We have a great product in the F16 so lets get out there and sell it instead of sending out "factory recall" messages

Hi Mike,
If you have a little time to kill, read through some of Sam`s other posts, you`ll soon see a pattern developing. Don`t worry too much about his opinion as it`s based on what will make sensational reading and get responses.

Phil did raise a valid point on the subject of legal liability. If a club/organisation hosts a regatta, does the signing of an indemnity form by the skipper and/or crew not absolve them from liability ?
I don`t know of any club or association in SA that has Indemnity Insurance, and I am also involved in paragliding, a slightly higher-risk sport than sailing (sometimes ).

We`re having the Cape Point Challenge next month, a 85km race from Fish Hoek Beach near Simonstown to the lighthouse at Cape Point and back. You can bet we`ll be signing an indemnity form, there be sharks in them waters .

Cheers
Steve

Addendum to my last post : Paragliding is probably safer than sailing, sharks can`t fly.

Phil Edwards tounches on a good point. This has been considered thoroughly in the past. It is the reason why we have the setup that we have.

Note the first 4 rules of the F16 framework and their wording :

1.1.1 In case of doubt, the intention of the rule makers which is referred to as the spirit of the rule, shall take precedence over the letter of the rule.

1.1.2 For the construction, all materials and all methodes of construction are allowed when these
do not imply an unacceptable increase in risk of bodily harm or imply the operation of an unsafe craft.

1.1.3 It is the responsibility of the designers and builders to contact the Formula 16 class authority and make sure that their design or redesigned feature on an existing design is checked for compliance with the Formula 16 rules, the spirit of the rules as well as the official intepretion of the Formula 16 rules before declaring or marketing their new product as "Formula 16" or Formula 16 compliant.

1.1.4 It is the responsibility of the competitors to ensure their craft is safe and seaworthy.

1.1.5 When the Formula 16 Authority feels that a designer, builder, competitor or craft is failing to comply with the Formula 16 rules then the Formula 16 Authority may take appropriate action and even restrict the use of the craft or the participation of the competitor.

Note how these rules allow the F16 organisation to intervene when it suspects non-compliance or an unsafe craft but doesn't burden it with garanteeing safety. That is solely the responsibility of the owners and the designers/builders.

The whole F16 rule set is writen that way.

Also note the rules :

4.1.1 The Formula 16 authority has the right to check the boats for compliance and safety before the race, on the water and right after the race even when a valid measurement certificate has been presented.

4.1.2 An event may not be advertised or held as a (open) Formula 16 event when not all rules stated in this section as well as sections 1 and 2 are respected.

4.2.2 It is the responsibility of the individual competitor to judge when his or her capabilities are sufficient for the encountered conditions and to take appropriate action.

Each time the class is allowed to take action and check up on things but is not required to do so by the rules. Also each time the personal responsibility of the owners is stressed. There are several rules that put the responsibility back in the court of the designers, builders and owners.

In reply to Phils point. The internation F16 class organisation will not sanction any F16 event. The international organisation will only maintain the class rules and provide a network of contact within the local organisations can be formed and cooperate. It is the responsibility of the local organisations and the event organisers to secure themselfs against liability. The international class only controls the maintenance of the ruleset and the communication network and therefor is unlinked to any event where a liability issue may arise. It will be useless sueing it, especially since the international class is not seated in any Anglo-Saxon culture where sueing is a favourite passed-time. The law structure in mainland Europe is based on the ancient French model that stresses personal responsibility over communinal responsibility. As God intended us to be. Only obvious neglicense is punished by the system and only when the party accussed had control over the situation. The international F16 class will never fall under that header because it will never organise or control any event or action that can lead to damages directly.

Now I understand that some nations around the world have a different view on this but last time I checked these very nations didn't rule the whole world and they can't procecute a mainland European for something that to local European laws OR international laws isn't a crime or even a demeanour/threspass. Even when local laws do consider it as such then these laws do NOT have any juristictions to mainland Europe. If they would than all the local Coffee shops overhere would stand trial in some US court because a US tourist bought some dope in it. And believe me these places are packed with Americans and French people. Neither of them can do anything about. This thing is called souvereinity.

Now, this puts the issue in its proper perspective. The issue is only present in the Anglo-Saxon influenced area's. Chiefly the USA and Australia. For some reason the UK itself is less problematic; probably because as a partner in the EU they have to stay close to mainland Europe.

The F16 class solution to these difference between local area's is two fold.

-1- All local actions and events are solely the responsibility of the local organisations and organisations. So they will have to take care to satisfy local laws and regulations. Indeed Phill Brander registered the F16 class in Australia for this reason. So the international organisation will limit herself to only maintaining the rules and the communication network. Try to proof liability in that. I have yet to see the first gun maker being sued for making a hand gun that was used to murder somebody.

-2- The international organisation will not ask for fees of anything; nor will it garantee or rule local organisations in any way. The locals are fully free to run things as they like as long as they stay within the guidelines of the F16 class. There is no direct link between the international class and any damage persons. It acts like a cooperation of persons and organisations. It is like your fellow crew mate. You can't sue your fellow crew mate for not preventing a capsize that leads to one of the crew getting stuck under water and drowning. You were there by choice and your own actions contributed to such an outcome. Maybe you can sue yourself ? In my experience there is no law system in the world that allows you to off load the blame on a cooperating partner; the question of guilt is then impossible to pin on a single party and liability becomes a very difficult accusation to proof. But more importantly the freedom of a local organisation limits the responsibility of the international organisation to the extend that guilt can never be laid there.

This is one of the reasons why the cel structure was developped. It allows the class to morph to local conditions without burdening other parts of the class in area's that don't require such a setup. Once again; only making the different makes of F16's equal in performance is what must be internationally garanteed. All other aspects are only subject to local conditions and to local organisations. Here in the Netherlands all coastal sailors donate money to the rescue services because it is a old volunteer run organisation. We don't have a coast guard as the USA has. Over here it is a unwritten rule. But I'm not going to burden other F16 organisations in the world with this "out-of-the-ordinary" state of affairs. That is a local issue that is handled completely by the local organisation.

Phil is partly right here. In area's were such liability laws and regulations exist a more formal association needs to be set up. This doesn't mean that the same must be done to the international organisation or even in area's where such laws don't apply. We must take care to understand the differences between local playing fields and the international playing field. They are not the same and big differences may exist.

Also how can I (and the volunteers helping me) create a setup that will satisfy 189 local law systems ? That is when considering the USA as a single unit instead of 50 federated states with their own laws on things like liability. No court or even a trial lawyer can demand that of the international organisation.

So my advise to all local groups is to find out what the local laws, regulations and customs are and satisfy them in any way you can using the local tools available to you. This goes for sailors as well as organisers. I've done it for my own area here in the Netherlands.

I expect to see more formal organisations to pop up in USA and Australia because of the liability laws there. In Europe and several asian countries I expect to see a continuation of the loosely organised cel structures.

Wouter

For US Sailors.
Here are a few points to consider.

Incorporation of the club is a good thing. This allows you to open a bank account in your clubs name and it protects the volunteer officers personal assests.

Liability insurance is highly recomended if you plan to sponsor an event OR cosponsor an event. You can purchase insurance from two providors. US Sailing sanctioned and insurance from the previous company that did buisness with US Sailing.

Regatta liability insurance will cover officers and race committe personal while they are on the water. Beach insurance will cover your liablity for the free beer at the party and any actions that happen on land and will protect the property owner as well. US Sailing's policy is comprehensive and will cover the boats and vehicles your club borrows to conduct the race as well. US Sailing insurance seems to recognize the role of chase boats and saftey boats that you have arranged to conduct the race. The other company would prefer you to not call them that. This grey area has always bothered me.

IF you don't incorporate as a club then you can try to use NAMSA or Hobie Cat's umbrella policy (its the same thing as what you would purchase for your incorporated club) Checks for the event are written to some ones personal account. (You get to deal with the IRS if need be) or any crap or claims from bad outcomes. Basically, if every one is a member of the large group (EG NAHCA and follows that groups rules they will be covered for on the water liablity. I don't think you can add property coverage easily. The sponsoring authority is then NAMSA or NAHCA and you are members of one big club running an event for the big club.

If you don't run an event or cosponsor an event... rather you are just attending the event as class members... you don't need organizational insurance. Just your own personal liability coverage.

Final point, the waivers that we routinely sign are not required once you get insurance. We continue to post them to reinforce the notion that the skipper takes full responsiblity for his actions.

Whats the bottom line... plan to spend about 800 to 900 a year for the coverage. It's the responsible thing to do if you run events so that any volunteer that you get to help out or loan you a boat does not take on any liablity from their generosity. It would really stink if the boat owner has to make an insurance claim while helping you out.

(had to spend a half hour on the phone with the underwriter to sort all of this out)

Take Care
Mark

Oh yeah... If you are in Cajun country... aka Louisiana they use the french system and the rules are a bit different generally!