New improved F16 logo

What size are you making?

I'm curious as to what size logo people should put on their sails and where on their sails if they already have a sail with a manufacturer class logo on it. (Like our mainsail already has the Taipan 4.9 logo on it, so....)

I guess I haven't been paying attention, but what do the Formula 18's do? Does the Tiger have a Hobie logo on the sail and also an F18 logo or one or the other or what?

How does all that work?

Mary,

I don't think there are any rules about logos...unlike the J/24 class which is pretty specific about size and location.

Like you, I've got the stock T4.9 sails...so I'd like to put a couple of 4-6" square ones near the clew of the main.

Other than that....free for all!

I'd like some for my boat--when will they be ready? PM me for my address and how I can pay you.

Logo looks great Robi !

Actually I was having a similar discussion in private with some Aussie and European sailors.

What we have come up with is to :

-1- Have the brand logo (Taipan, Blade, Stealth) In the middle of the second panel from the top.
the word Panel is here refering the to segments between the batten pockets.

-2- Have the 6 character identifier code "nation sail #" (Like USA 703; NED 016; SIN 006) near the leech in the middle panel

-3- Have the Formula 16 class logo near the leach in the second panel from the bottom (=as good as on eye level when boat on beach = good for recognision)

See the modified picture :

I think this gives a nice symmetry to the sail and allows all the writings in the sail that builders, Race organisors and the class wants.

In the example the letters USA need to be added.

I would like to propose this as the Formula 16 class convention. Shall we have a vote on this ?

Wouter

I don't get a vote, but I was thinking, as I think others were, that it would be in the bottom panel down closer to the clew of the mainsail.

From a publicity standpoint, the lower the better, because so many close-up photos of boats only include the hull and the bottom of the mainsail. If you put it in the second panel up, it is going to get cut out of a lot of pictures.

Just my two cents as someone who has to do the cutting.

I like Wouters idea, because I really have not seen it done before. We can do our own thing. I also like the lower option as well, just like Mary pointed out.

I would definatley want to do something diferent and unique. There are NO rules on this regard, so we can start designing what looks best and fits our needs.

As far as sizes go, I will recieve my blade this weekend. Once I have the mainsail to measure on, I will be able to provide a measurement. I can go as big as 24 inches wide, and whoever long you want it.

I will be making prototypes here shortly

Okay, one more input. On the sail example Wouter gave, the logo was on an opaque, rectangular "patch." I did not like that look at all.

Normally, you see a logo on a transparent background, so you just see the logo.

HOWEVER, because of all the weird things they do these days with sails, it is pretty obvious that if they had put the logo with a transparent background down near the clew on the sail Wouter demonstrated, you would not be able to see it or read it.

So I am thinking maybe the best thing, that would be readable on all sail colors, would be a a logo within a round, opaque background. That way, you would be able to see it, no matter what the sail looks like.

And I really like the idea of the opaque part being round rather than square or rectangular -- I think it will stand out more in general. And then the same round logo could be used as a patch on a hat or a jacket or a shirt or a sleeve or whatever.

Consistency in identification of the class?

I'm with Mary on both placement and shape.

Mary, the way I am going to do it, it will NOT be on any round or square background. It will be just the F16. It will be a vynil decal, no background no nothing. Tonight, I will work on a example so you can understand what I am saying, if I am not clear.

What I will be doing is a decal NOT a sticker.

took me five minutes to whoop this up. This is what I will be doing to my boat. Not sure on the position though

Im no F16 owner, but plan on beaing in the future,i got some advice tho:

Having the F16 be a decal might be very troublesome specially for "transparent" sails, as you will see f16 on one side, then 61f on the other. Thus you will have to place the decal on another area on the other side. I think Marys advice will work very well, as having an opaque circle will create a non-transparent spot in the sail where you can have text that will be read well and not be affected by transparency.

The opaque circle will also keep the sail more organized with less text, since with a decal you will have tons of reverse text behind the correct text. Not to mention it will also make the logo stand out more by creating more contrast.

That is true, something to consider.

Mary,
When I was fixing the F16 logo to my Blade sail I intended to fix it near the clew as you suggested. When I went to do this I found the amount of stitching in this area because of the need to reinforce the clew made me dounbt the logo would stay on the sail. I reasoned that the stitching would allow salt water to get under the logo in sections and that would be the beginning of its demised.
My next option was the second panel towards the leach
of the sail. This worked fine.

As far as seeing the logo throught the sail. I adopted the approach that this is nothing more than a symbol. When viewed from the stbd side of the sail the F16 symbol is facing the way the boat is going. When looking at the port side the symbol is still looking where the boat is going instead of looking where it has been. To me this symbolises looking towards the future instead of turning your back on it and dwelling on the past,

To me this felt right and symbolic of the F16 class.

To do this I made up the F16 logo and then made up a mirror image of it for the other side of the sail.

I adopted the same prinpcle for the Blade symbol.
Everyone see things differently, this is just the way I see it.

Robi,
This is a rather surprising co-incidence. As making my own logo took a while I recently approached a sign manufacturer to make up F16 logos for some Blade sails that are being made. I was surprised at how reasonabley priced they are when purchased in qualtity and how expensive the are when purchased in low numbers. I have to take back a sample of both Dacron and Pentex to ensure the type of vynil selected will adhere to both materials. He knows it will work with Pentex as this chap makes symbols for sails for a local boat builder who uses Pentex on his boats.
As far as size goes. My view is it should be no bigger than what you can fit on an A4 sheet of paper.

I was thinking about getting a bunch of these made and sending them to Wouter. So as people approach him for membership they could also buy a logo if they wanted one.
Just an idea.

Regards,
Phill

Good readings Phill.

Since I have setup shop, look at the attached photos, I will have NO problem at all, providing the logos to the US folks. Even if international orders come through I am for it. Although shipping will be spendy.

Since I am so excited over this F16 thingamajinkser, picking up my blade tomorow and all. I started messing with the vynil cutter plotter. Here is the first experiment ever.

Robi,

I like my logo to be a little subdued as well. So no contrasting colour background circle for me. Either a grey background or a the thing you seem to be making. Just the logo and the rest being transparant.

I would be interested in having such decals.

Wouter

Robi,
I didn't realise you were in the game, so to speak.

Guys, Guys, Guys,

Don't reinvent the wheel, Tim and I have had Logo's on our sails for over a year and can answer most of your questions.

Vinyl type will stick to Mylar type sails OK. Lasted about 6 months on Dacron sail didn't seem to stretch with sail when I landed on it! So I think sticky back sail cloth (like numbers) is best for Dacron sails. It can be cut in vinyl cutters. The actual Logo is difficult to apply and I would advise soapy water on Mylar sails to allow repositioning. On Dacron it doesn't stick as quick just be careful. A screen printed Logo on a background would be easier to apply but I think the Logo on it's own looks better.

If you already have a class logo Taipan etc. Placement near clew I think looks good and there have been photos of Mossie sails on Forum with logos in position.

If you don't have a class logo other than F16 then placement following ISAF guidelines as found on Alterd's main, see attachment and on Ben's main in recent photos on forum is going to reduce the chance of problems at reggattas.

Generaly placement of Starboard side highest as per ISAF guidelines is best as back to back nearly all sails can become transperant in some conditions and cause cofusion of logo.

Regards Gary.

See attachment for picture of Logo on Mossie Main

Wouter, you said something about having a vote to get a consensus on logo size, appearance and placement. Are you going to do that? If so, we will wait to put on logos until after the results of the vote, so we can be consistent with the other F16s.

If there are no guidelines, Rick will probably put his near the top of the sail. We want high visibility for the logo because Rick is going to be racing the boat this summer in Ohio and Michigan.

Personally, I think the second panel up is fine.

We can have a vote on it.

Currently we are running along the lines of the Formula 18 and Formula 20 classes. They don't specify the need of a class logo in the sails only the sticker near the clew that you get when you have your boat measured. A manufacturer can have no F18 insignia at all (Hobie Tiger) or have only the boat name and brand logo (nacra F18). Some builders and sailors add an F18 logo somewhere.

I think it good to allow the builders to have the top spot in the sail for their brand logo. Of course sailnumber and nation code should be clearly visible so middle of the sail for those. That pretty much leaves the bottom portion of the sail as the prefered spot for the (optional) F16 logo.

I'm personally for leaving some freedom in the way the mainsail is stickered. Eventually we will get small measurement stickers near to clew of every sails and those will be rules upon but about class insignia I think we can allow a good measure of freedom.

This brings me to the next proposel and vote : See the next post

Wouter

Proposal :

-1- Keep the placing of insignia free, but specify an official preference when insignia are fitted to the boat. See later in the proposal.

-2- Compulsory will be the 3 character nation code (NED, USA, SIG, AUS etc) + a 3 digit sail number (001, 100, 123 etc) Both most adhere to the ISAF regulations on sail numbering. ISAF rules on place and size and lettertype; so need for the F16 class to rule on those aspects.

-3- F16 signia may be placed on the boat and sails but are not compulsory. However F16 insignia may only be the official class logo in the way it is presented in the files or character strings as specified later. Only the colour of these may be changed. Single colour use per insignia or string is enforced. So no rainbow strings or something.

-4- Both class rules 2.2.1 and 2.8.1 apply (2.8.1 will be reworded by me to specify our official class logo which is the Cyclone type F following by the number 16 above two bars signifying the two catamaran hulls)

2.1.1 The full name of the class is "Formula 16 class for High Performance Catamarans"; and her official abbreviations in order of preference are Formula 16, F16, Formula 16 HP and F16 HP .

2.8.1 .... Crews are ... allowed to carry the character strings : "Formula 16" ; "F16 High Performance" or "F16" on their sails and hulls as long as the graphic can not be interpreted as being a sanctioned class emblem.

So ONLY these strings and the official cyclone logo may be used as F16 identifiers. The placing and size of these are left open within ISAF regulations. All other markings on the boat will be considered boat name/brand type/sail number or advertising and all of these are regulated by the ISAF international rules for classes. Of course we are not a member of ISAF BUT most events use these rules and guideliness of ISAF anyway and may restrict participation if a particular boat does not adhere to these regulations.

-5- markings on other parts than sails are left largely open as long as points -3- and -4- are satisfied

F16 prefered convention on sail markings

-1- When a brand or type logo is used :

Brand/type logo on top of the sail and in the usual location (second panel from the top)
Nation code + sail number in the middle of the sail or just above the middle of the sail and near the leech.
F16 class logo or identification string in the bottom of the sail and near the leech (second panel from the bottom or bottom panel)
F16 measurement sticker, measured data and signature will be near the clew of the sail so this spot must be left open. (measurement will be implemented at a later time)

-2- When no brand or type logo is used :

Either the top part of the sail is empty of logo's or the F16 class logo (no strings) is placed there.
Nation code + sail number in the middle of the sail or just above the middle of the sail and near the leech.
F16 class logo or identification string in the bottom of the sail and near the leech (second panel from the bottom or bottom panel)
F16 measurement sticker, measured data and signature will be near the clew of the sail so this spot must be left open. (measurement will be implemented at a later time)

The official F16 class membership is not finished yet so this vote is still open to all.

Poll ends 1 april 2005

Thank you, Wouter.

Hi Wouter,

correct me if I am wrong , but when I asked for a sail number didn't we discuss the fact that we are not allowed to use Nation Code unless we are official International class with ISAF, which we didn't want to do, interference cost etc. So we were going to use groups of numbers for different parts of the world eg. starting 5000 for Australia.

Regards Gary.

I personally don't remember that part. I must admit that I didn't look into this specifically. However I know the Taipans use the nation codes as well and they are not an official international class with ISAF either. I can name a few more classes; 18HT for example. So if I had to guess than I would say that ISAF is not very strict on the use of nation codes.

I do remember that Phill proposed that one-off F16's would be numbered in the 5000 range. Especially the mosquito's as they were so many made of these over the years. But it is a good point as you have 5000 as sailnumber now. Well we can make the rule "... minimum 3 digit sailnumber ..." Would that be okay ?

Of course we have quite some legacy in the F16 class with both the Taipans, Stealth and even the Spitfires using the 3 digit sailnumbers. Both Taipan and Spitfire apparently started at number 001. Stealth Started at 500. Blade has now started at 700 and the one-offs are all over the place (006, 016, 5000 for example).

Personally I think the only option we have is too stick with the proposal we have now and changing the wording to 'at minimum a 3 digit sailnumber"

Sorry for the mix-up Gary,

Wouter

I just paid "Robi" for 4 logos for Paul and I and hopefully we'll get them soon.

So here's my question:

Should we put them on the sail (lower panel) or on the hull between the rear crossbeam and the stern? Please advise...

[I'm leaning toward the hull placement since I've got two main sails.]

IMO They will hold alot better on the hull. Thats why I put mine there as well. Matt McDonald mentioned also that he is going to put his decals in that same location as well.

I guess US, U.S. F16'ners are onto something. Remember this class lets individual countries do there own thing. So no worries go ahead and put where you think is best.

Also the vynil that was used to make your decals, is a premium eight year outdoor vynil. So it should last you a good ammount of years.

The proposal for the logo's on the sails are only to avoid wildly varying ways of stickering up the sail that could lead to confusion. Apart from that I don't see a point in ruling on the logo's other then specifying the shape and single colour use. So it is your choice wether you put it on the hull or sails. If you do put is on the sails than it is prefered that you do so in the bottom part of the sail. That is it.

Robi is right that everybody is welcomed to use his or her personal freedom within the rules.

In short ; the proposal rule number 5 applies :"-5- markings on other parts than sails are left largely open as long as points -3- and -4- are satisfied"

Regards.

Wouter