portsmouth number

Like I have said before. I just came from a boat with an unreasonably fast rating (18HT 59.6, in I20 is 59.3). Give me a chance to enjoy the unreasonably slow rating for a bit <img src=

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There is nothing you can do to change the F16 rating in the US Portsmouth system, except wait for more times to be submitted which will

correct

the number. It is a data driven number that reflects the boat performance and the performance of the sailors on the boat.

The biggest issue, imo, is the great discrepancy between F16 and F16U. Drop the F16U rating and pour all the data into the F16 rating. The F16U rating is not getting much love anyway, so it is useless.

As long as the US uses a performance data driven handicap system, there will be complaints about ratings (look at H17 for example of long running whining). It basically takes years for new boats to settle in to a

fair

number.

The US Portsmouth Committee has a request to drop the F16U rating and are debating it. This was confirmed as late as last week.

Just my 2 cents.

PTP- No relief in sight bud! I recently beat a well sailed H-16 by over 4 minutes. Corrected I was 2 minutes short! <img src=

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Tshan- I hope they drop the 1-up thingy.

But, it's all good. <img src=

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So, to be clear about it, when Pete and I show up at Eustis next month and race Uni, and are put into Open Class (if we don't have a F16 Fleet, as it looks like we will be the only F16's there.) should we use the F16U number to generate more data vs. the other boats?

Not quite Timbo

First of all... as long as you sail the same course... report the elapsed times for all of the boats in that flight of starts. so, it won't matter HOW you register... just what the scorekeeper turns in.

Secondly, Assuming you were the first place boat ... You still would have to sail the boat to within 10% of the exisiting number Otherwise... you had a bad day.. and the number for that race is just an outlier. It won't make the database.

So in the example that you gave... finishing 2 minutes back of a 16... presumably (AND by definition) sailing close to it's number... you should caclulate your rating to win.. This will give you an idea of how close (or off the pace you are).

remember... the PN number is not the average of the F16 sailors... the PN number is the average of the BEST F16 sailors. It predicts the BOATS performance. Only the first place F16 is used (Only the first in class of boat data is used from any given race)

So... when the F16's first came on the scene.... Nobody in the US was sailing even close to the Texel number converted to DPN (which we had) We also understood that sailors with lots of racing experience were not racing the boat. ... The current rating reflects these difference.

It won't change rapidly either. PN's should only change about 25% of the difference to avoid wild swings in the ratings..

Personally, I would like to use a policy of using a measurment rating for a new class UNTIL they host a North Americans with 10 or more boats for a period of at least two years. This would be a standard that would go a long way to assuring the PN committe that all of the underlying assumptions in a performance base system are met

Boat in racing condition.
Good sails.
Teams that are optimizing the boat by racing it.

So, to my way of thinking in the USA... the F16's should be using a number based on texel and SCR in 2007.

Wouter's analysis of the distance race data is comforting (to him) becasue it shows that the basic texel formula is scaling well with waterline length. Nothing unexpected or upseting to the measurment community. The texel rating and SCR rating for boats is not going to change! The recent tweaking of Texel and ISAF SCR looks fair to all boat classes (and nothing is perfect).

The performance based systems by their very nature are always works in progress. They are quite Fair as well... but they have errors if the underylying assumptions are tossed out the window.

I care intensely about this issue!

If the racers think that the numbers are just wrong... and the racing is unfair... then.. you get the outcome.. "Why bother racing, the game is fixed. Nobody will invest much time or energy traveling to regattas if the game is screwed!

It shows! <img src=

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I don't doubt the fairness of the system. But, when you've invested a small fortune in a boat, you finish way ahead of another boat (which hasn't been sailed in years) and he beats you handily it stings! Kind of like getting beat up by a guy with one hand tied behind him. You wonder how bad it would have been if he'd had both hands free!

In this specific instance, the results are very useful. Had I

seen

the wind better, the results might have been very different. My competitor in this case was a Colorado lake sailor and a very good one. He simply outsailed me. The difference in boats and ratings was not the issue.

This is the

problem

with PY (US or UK). It lags behind developments, BUT it also rates the sailor and the boat as it uses actual results to create the rating.

UK PY uses all returns (not just the first boat home) to create the rating, so you can get boats that end up with

easy

ratings (like the Musto Skiff) as they are difficult to sail to their full potential and so the average performance of the fleet is a fair bit below the top of the fleet and so in handicap terms the good people are sailing off a rating that is too low. The opposite also happens in boats that are sailed a lot and have a large following (like the Laser). It ends up with a fairly tough handicap as there are lots of them sailed and they are (fairly) easy to sail, thus the average of the fleet is not so far away from the front of the fleet (in % terms).

SCHRS and Texel remove the crew from the equation by using a formula based on the boat to create a rating.

Yes... but it is impossible to come up with a measurement system that rates laser's and Hobie 16's. Or Hobie 16's and Int Canoes (a race that we have actually scored)

Certainly, when we tried to score the Int 14's with the Hobie 16's on Portsmouth ... it was a flop... the I14's could not keep the pointy end up!... Only the national champ could sail the boat around the course in moderate breeze. So, skiffs, which are hard to sail, (and quite rare in the USA) are a real ratings challenge since there is very little data... much less good data.

So... that is the challenge... How do you handciap the fleet with all of the issues in play.

The objective is a single coherent rating system for all boats. Hell... XS Racing wants to extend Portmsouth all the way to the big cats and monohulls!

So... the solution is in how you screen the data.
For beachcats... i propose the standard of a 10 boat nationals. (My assumption is that if you are going to the effort to organize and go to a three day championship for two years... then you have gotten a critical mass of skill to get the boat close to its potential. The data will then pass the quality test and generate a good fair system.

The advantage of a performance system is that the wind speeed data collection will handle the non linear performance you point to on the F16 single handed.

The boat should be fast as hell in B2-3.... even with the F16 and F18 (2 up) at B4 and slower in B 5 and up.

One number just can't do this.

from my perspective... we need both systems and must continue the effort to keep both fair and more or less consistent.

Mark

Mark,

It's impossibible as Mono's plane at different times (if at all) an so they have a very funny performance curve with a big bump just after the hop onto the plane - similar for the foiling moth - Dog slow when not on the foils, mid cat performance when foiling.

I started talking to some of the mono chaps on the Y+Y forum and we were considering trying to map SCHRS onto mono's to see what happened - we never got around to really doing it.

When we do sail UK PY for cats against mono's it's almost possible to predict the results based on wind speed. Light wind, small little sailed boats do well.

low-moderate (8 kts) 12's and 49ers win as they can plane first

Mid speeds - High powered cats lije F16 single handed

Higher winds Cats etc