So...Talk to me about the F16

I wonder whether any newby should be let loose in those conditions, regardless of what boat they are on! I would think the F16 could certainly take it and maybe be better off since they are easier to right than a lot of the others. You can't reasonably sail a H16 solo in those conditions can you?
The F16 is very easily depowered and sailing 2-up on the F16 in wind like that is awesome. I think you would sell more than a few... what other boat possible fits the profile you are talking about that can be sailed and raced solo or 2-up? There are a lot of husband wife teams that are looking for a F16, they just don't know it yet.

Probably not without arranging some training at the same time. Having sailed Dart 18 and F18 before sailing F16, I'd say it'd be pretty much the same as selling them an F18.

Yes.

I'm a pond sailor, but many people do store F16s on a beach.

2-up, it's identical to an F18. 1-up it's a little quicker.

Depends on how practised you are, and what you're starting from. My boat lives on its road trailer with the mast up and a cover on it, and it takes me about 15 minutes.

Obviously I'm biased, and am not very familiar with the West Coast sailing scene, but the versatility and light weight are what make the F16 unique. You mention it in comparison to the H16, but it's a very different boat with a different appeal. It's certainly a faster boat, but if what you're after is pure drag racing reaches, then the H16 may be a better boat, as the F16, like the F18, is focused on maximising upwind/downwind race performance.

The market for the boat is much closer to that of the F18 or FX-one. The advantages are the lighter weight which means easier to right and easier to drag up the beach and the ability to sail 1-up or 2-up. As an average club sailor, it's these practical benefits that make all the difference for me. The disadvantage (at least round here) is that currently the fleets are far smaller than for F18.

Paul

why would you blow them off if there is no one design class? for the same reason you would blow them off if they were interested in an F18.

Hmmm, Thoughtful?

I think that you already know the answer to the first question. I liken it to asking if you should sell someone a high performance auto for a trip from Paris to Dakar, when they have only previously driven to church on Sundays .

I sail in relative isolation on a Northern lake so I won't touch the questions regarding ocean conditions and F18 comparisons. I do store my boat on a beach but probably not the way you are refering to. Do you tend to leave $16,000 laying around without worrying about other people?

Do you need to money up? Could you become a West Coast distributor, or is that the same as putting money in the game?

Again, conscious of the politics on this forum. F-18's have a huge class and are supported by a serious infrastructure here on the West Coast. Performance and Hobie.

If the general sailing populace knew the very slim margins we dealers have to work with, you'd think we were all nuts to try to make our business work. Having said that, I am not willing to go through the work of having a single boat shipped from FL, EU, or AUS with no prospect of selling more. Gearing up for stocking parts (that in some cases require custom build) etc, etc requires a huge commitment in time and $$. West Marine is right up the street, which is where people go out of habit, even though their prices are oftentimes higher.

All of this rigamaroll to make $500 is not worth it, even though I love small cats above all else. When dealing with the heavy-weights like Hobie and P-cats I have serious backup anytime I need it.

When importing through a 'West Coast Rep' let's say for example. I am an expert at shipping, building, activating warranty, rigging and sailing cats. It just seems that people are willing to deal directly with the manufacturers. Oftentimes, with the result being that they would have rather paid me to do it for them, so I want to be smart about it.

They are on a Getaway right now, and I feel they are pretty safe.

Yes, I leave my FX-one on the beach all summer. Our beach is very safe. I was mostly asking about the hulls, rig etc, taking a beating from the conditions and the occasional kid using it as a trampoline.

So, can I expect around $16,000+tax ($2000)+reg($50) +ship ($2000)+ commissioning ($500)

Is this fair?

$21 g's all said and done to CA +or-.

Jeremy, I know of four in CA. Two Taipans, a Blade, and a Stealth.

I agree with Bruce that if you feel comfortable with leaving a $16K boat on the beach, then nothing should be stopping you.

If I were you, I'd be talking to VWM about distributorship out West. After laying my eyes on a VWM Blade in Long Beach, CA and sailing this beautiful boat, I am under the impression that there will be people who would want one.

They're light and that is what will get the folks to fork out the extra money instead of going with the Hobie. Show me a catamaran that can be sailed (and righted) solo or two-up, weighs less than 240 pounds. That should pretty much sell the product I would think. F16HP, any others?

F16HP, The Tool, The Rule

GARY

Slightly rhetorical Bobcat, for public view.

I thought that Bruce's (Bobcat's) thoughtful input was right on.

GARY

Thanks guys!! This is really helpful info so far. Keep it coming.

I think that you would sell more F16s than you think. As for the other issues- hard to really relate as I am not a dealer so i certainly can't speak to that.
In truth, if I were always sailing in winds of 20kn I would want a custom sail with less area on my Blade for sailing solo... but that being said, the stock sails do depower very well.

bottom line, I think, IMO:
When customers feel the weight compared to an F18 they will want one.
When you take the husband aside and tell him that he can sail it solo if she ends up not liking it they will want it.
When they are up to it- and sail with the spin solo they will want one.

I use to live in the Bay area and was sailing my hobie 16 in the bay (from redwood city), in the ocean (from Santa-Cruz launch ramp) and in a reservoir in the mountain in between when sailing solo.

F16 have a lot of sail area, but it is relatively easy to depower them. However a noob sailor in 20knots of wind will have some tough time whatever cat they pick. Maybe sailing a F16 2-up without the jib at the beginning could be a path to controlling the beast.

No question about it. I've seen F16 out in 25knots, no problem.

I wouln't recommend storing any fiberglass boat on a beach. Period. Get a rotomoulded one instead. Note that I would not recommend launching from the beach in Santa Cruz with any boat with a daggerboard either, the water is shallow and you can't make way, pick speed or tack without the boards down. Tacking out of the channel is not fun, but easier to do with a F16 when compared with a H16.

Exactly the same, faster if you are solo (no jib). The hardware is really similar to anything you see on a F18.

Please do. When people want something faster than a H16, but don't want something as heavy as a F18 (or requiring a crew all the time) the F16 shines. As a Solo boat it is way better than a H16 (hey, you can still tack if you take the jib down <img src=

alt=

/>, and lighter than a FX-one.

That's exactly where I'm at. Thanks for the input.

There's also a Blade here in Reno, which should be in your catchment area. Actually, right now it's half a blade - one hull got damaged in shipping.

See, those are the issues that a distributor would deal with, which is why most boat manufacturers have an authorized dealer to activate warranty... Basically check over the built boat and make sure it's all good.

Thanks Rhino.

One design infrastructure.

Jeremy... it seems you have two full on race programs on the west coast. The A class and the F18.
You have a second equally committed tier with Hobie 16's, which speaks to a different group of sailors.

You have two race niches left. the two person non spin performance boats. (Hobie 20 Hobie 18) and this niche which is the single handed with spin class. I would not see the need to market the boat as a OD race class until it happens. Just make sure that the sailors have one opportunity a month to go race the F16 in an open class...

Some might say that

CRAP another cat race class will dilute the racing scene

. My argument is that this race boat fills a niche that is empty. Moreover, the idea that by killing new classes so as to preserve the existing racing status quo always seems to die. When life changes for a sailor... no amount of class strenght in an F18 or Hobie 16 can balance... crew...and no crew issues.

When and if a critical racing mass materializes... then... its a great problem to have.

Yeah! Sign me up. Thanks for the insight Mark.

If someone in California buys a Blade direct from VWM, do they pay sales tax? If not, it would be hard to compete with the direct-sales.

I don't think so

Jeremy,
Give me a call any time if you want more info on the class. As you know, I've sailed my Taipan up and down California for 5 years and have also sailed the Blade and Stealth here in California and looked at the fleet of 10 or so Stealths in London area.

I had a great time this past weekend

mixing it up

with Rhino's nacra and other big cats.

I'll pm you with my cell number.

You don't pay sales tax until you walk into the DMV to reg it. Then it's game-on. And, if they find out you have been sailing it, there's a little letter that goes to the state BOE. Then you're bummed. Don't get a ticket on an unregistered, un sales-tax paid boat, I know someone that got their boat taken. You'll see a line on your tax forms that says something like,

Mercandise bought tax free from out of state.

That's the second place they'll get you if you don't reg it. Then they've got you for tax evasion. It's easy to get by that with small stuff, but boats are a different story.

So yes, if you import a boat and reg it here in CA, you pay sales tax.

Would you sell an f16 to a noob cat sailor that has never raced, flown a spi etc, or even crewed on a high performance beach cat, and feel good about it in the aforementioned conditions?

The short answer,

No

.

The long answer:

I would recommend a windsurfer or a kite board for the Bay. I've been to the Bay many times and seen what it can be like, especially under the bridge, when the sea breaze comes on in the summer, with the valley at 105 degrees and the cold ocean water. Lots of current, lots of big wind and waves, no place for a

newb

and the F16 is not a toy to be learning on in those conditions.

It's one thing if you have lots of experience on high performance cats and want to try it, but the next time you are out there, count the number of high perf. beach cats you see racing there...that should tell you something. It can get mighty rough and the water is cold. <img src=

alt=

/>

Well I've got a call into several F-16 builders. We'll see what happens. Thanks all for the input. I got a bunch of PM's in support of going ahead with this project.

One more question...

I ran into problems selling a-class cats because every year it seems like there is a new favorable design and I always feared getting stuck with a boat that was out of style. It's like anticipating and hitting a moving target. I feel like this situation is not as extreme with the F16. Would you agree?

Thanks again for your responses!

I doubt if anything will

horizon

the current designs even those currently being drafted.. In reality the crews are the determining factor between the current designs..

Im fairly sure that which ever design you choose will have a fairly long shelf life.. Hell even the Tiapan 4.9 with kite (grandfathered boat) seems to hold its own and that design is what 20 years old.. Also the kited mosqitos in a blow are reputedly hard to pass.. The mozzie is the same vintage as the Tornado...

The class founders made every effort to foster/encourage innovation in the class without creating an expensive

arms race.

For example, the weight is light but not extreme, so regular glass or timber boats can be competive; although carbon fiber masts are allowed, the minimum tip weight rule neutralizes the weight advantage.

As far as different boats go, reading through the Viper review thread is insightful--here's the latest design with many positives, yet one sailor who has sailed the viper and taipan says he would prefer the taipan but with the viper rig set up. The taipan is a 15+ year old design now and is still and will continue to be competitive. The Stealth hull design is over 8 years old and no one is indicating that it is in any way obsolete. What's happening is that as a formula class people can get a boat with characteristics that suit them. Boats should have a very long service life, and the excellent build quality of the F16 makers boilsters that.

The attached photos sort of sum of formula 16 racing--it's different from one design, but sometimes the ferraris win and sometimes the porsches win. Biggest variable will always be the driver.

Ah, the tax man finds a way.

In NV unpowered boats don't need registration, and in CA out-of-state vessels participating in or preparing for a regatta don't need registration either.

As another Californian interested in this class, I'll put in my $0.02 worth in support of the idea of growing it here. I hope to join in the fun...when I can.

Importing a vessel into CA would seem enough of a PITA that buying locally would be worth a good deal extra just to have that BS taken care of. I have no problem assembling and tuning, but handling our Byzantine tax requirements...ugh.

In such a new (locally) class, having a local source of wisdom would be worth a great deal as well.

BTW, I was amused by the recommendation of a windsurfer or kiteboard for SF Bay. I windsurfed there for several years, and we rescued noobs with boards from downwind rocks and beaches pretty much daily. What's needed with any high-skill sport is good instruction, the more the better. I can only assume that it must drive you nuts when many customers think that the act of buying the product should qualify them to sail it to Hawaii and back.

Maybe something useful would be an analysis of the members of this class (especially the ones who've forked over for boats of course). I tend to think of early middle age, technically savvy types, not unlike most windsurfers these days. Is this the correct view of the class?

To be sure the Bay is no place for a

newb

to learn anything, but since a windsurfer and kite board both require more wind, and the Bay has some pretty good wind, that would probably be safer for a newb vs. a new cat on it's side blowing toward the rocks.

I think there are not too many sandy type beaches around the bay as well, but more mud flats at low tide which would be very difficult to pull any cat through.

Good points. Except for a few places, one gets blown onto either mud or rocks. It's a little easier to pull a board out than a cat (except for one unfortunate windsurfer who, I'm told, was killed slipping off some downwind rocks).

But there's a strange thing about the SF Bay. There are lots of dinghies and skiffs and keelers out there, and kites and windsurfers (a superb Formula windsurfing scene) -- but very few cats. Either this is a tremendous untapped market, or there is some special multihull repellent which I don't know about, and which doesn't repel every other sort of sailing craft. Does anybody know what's (not) going on with that?

I'm trying.
It's like herdin' cats. <img src=

alt=

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