Corrr that has to be a first <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Slightly narrower beam seems to work for A cats.
And do you think the A cat would be faster or slower if it was wider??
I think it depends on the wind. We all want to sail on one hull as much as possible, for reduced drag. A narrower boat will fly a hull sooner, with less righting moment, so in light air, that's what you want. But when the wind comes up, now you need more righting moment, so the same hulls, crew, etc. should go faster with a wider platform (more righting moment), right?
I don't know. Why don't you ask Pete Melvin?
I'm guessing you'd have to beef up the beams to make it wider. The wider platform would be less stiff and I've no idea how to correct that. The narrower beam would be easier to sail,
things
would be an inch or two closer and easier to reach.
So, I'd conclude the narrower beam would be one of many compromises.
If you can get Melvin to address the issue, I'd be greatful.
Pete and Gino have a bit on at the moment, and to ask them that question would be like asking Enzo Ferrari if he thinks more horsepower is a good thing...
I'll leave you guys to this little discussion, you seem to have entered the 4th dimension...
Macca,you make no sense. The analogy between horsepower and beam is dubious at best. In cars the problem has always been getting power to the road. That requires matching engine and chassis. As power increases, chassis are redesigned to accommodate the increase.
The assumption here is that Pete Melvin is at the top of his field and his designs are among the best.
IF: wider beam are always better
Then: Pete Melvin desgins should always have wide beams.
Since the conclusion is demonstrably false, so is the premise.
FWIW, Ferrari doesn't know everything. Their cars don't win all races or sell to all upscale buyers. Iirc, Ferrari was one of the last builders to switch from drum to disc brakes.
OK then, which is fastest upwind a DNA A class or the latest all singing and dancing 10ft wide Melvin designed F20C. My money would have to say more times than not the A class.
Ah now I quote from the DNA's own website "This weekend PJ sailed in Hellevoetsluis in force 5-6 in such a set-up (increased mastrake, striff battens) and he could easily beat a Nacra 20 carbon and the F18's upwind by saling both higher and faster (downwind the Nacra was a rocket).
Now if everything can be believed from the internet <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
Ok, how about we do a lineup? You guys bring an A class and I bring the F20.....
You shouldn't believe everything you read on the web...
You think Ashby would show?
You shouldn't believe everything you read on the web...
Mecca that would be such a throw of the dice, I think I would run that one past your bosses first. If the 20 lost you would knock the sales so hard that it would probably never survive as a class, if it won and we are talking a straight upwind leg here, then it would be the boat design of the decade.
Be a good boy and run that one past your bosses before someone takes you up <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
nah, I;m cool with it.
Lets get it happening.
Seriously guys the DNA wouldn't stand a chance. I've seen them they don't seem to be much faster than all the other A s. Not much faster upwind than a Viper.
I guarantee the F20 would pass a A like it standing still in nearly all conditions.
Maccas Ferrari analogy is pretty right.
I don't have a ton of time on an A-Cat, but spent a handful of weekends on a Boyer mkIV this summer, and it would blow the doors off the Viper going to weather. Unless you've got an almost 400lb team and wind out of the A's comfort zone, I don't think the Viper has a chance upwind. I'm not saying one way or the other about any A against the new Nacra. But it'd be a fun shoot out! Get four boats together with each model with a good, and okay team and see how things go.
why is everyone trying to redesign the wheel.. Ask Tom Roberts .. http://www.aquarius-sail.com/
He has spent a lot of time on over square boats as a sailor, builder designer..
I don't think it's worthwhile trying to compare the performance of a MkIV Boyer with the latest designs. It's a 15 year old design and it's performance is not comparable to the current designs. I had one when they first came out and recently had one for a while. It doesn't compare to my Geltek Flyer II.
I've also sailed 15 races across a range of conditions recently against DNA's and Scheurers. While they are fast and seem well suited to flat water, they certainly aren't game changers when compared to Tools, Gelteks or Marstroms. It's still the quality of the sailor that is making the difference.
The current Australian F16 champion on a Viper regularly beats the latest A's sailed by top 10 world ranked A sailors over the line in anything over about 10 knots. They aren't faster to windward in most conditions but they aren't far away. In fact I sailed in a 50 kilometre marathon race yesterday with half upwind and half downwind and the Viper beat a very highly ranked A by about a metre.
How does all this relate to the speed of the new Nacra - I haven't sailed against one but looking at the specs I'd think it would be considerably faster than an F16 and should walk away from an A to windward in anything more than light breeze.
Maybe one will turn up in Australia one day and we'll see it against arguably the quickest A fleet in the world!
Cheers
It might be a skill level thing too ACE. Perhaps as the sailors get better the difference is less noticeable? As a generalization I hold pace with the F18's singlehanded going to weather on my Viper, when I was sailing that old A, I was crushing them up wind. Just my experience, and the rest of the world certainly has a deeper talent pool than the U.S.
MkIV might be an old boat, but wasn't there one doing pretty well at worlds this year? I think it had updated boards/blades though.
Karl
I'd agree with your observation about Vipers and the F18's. They seem about the same pace especially sailed two up. The one up F16's tend to slow up relatively when there is a bit of breeze on - not enough hands to do all the jobs in the corners! The F18's seem to have an advantage also in big breeze and waves. A's tend to beat them to windward until they are two on the wire then they aren't far away.
I don't think there were any MkIV's in the last A Worlds. You're probably thinking of Jack Benson who came third on a Flyer I. He's a great young sailor brought up on the light winds of Darwin - just like Italy. He has really worked hard the last two years attending all the big events in Aus - his boat is is in Brisbane now ready for the Cat Challenge in November and Aus Nationals in January. The Flyer I is not at all like the MkIV - it was the first of the boats with the high bouyancy keel line boats - so called wave piercing designs. The MKIV still has quite a vee in the under water shape. A great club boat still, but not likely to win a Worlds.
Lets get it happening.
Hi Wayne,
I have sailed against the Nacra's in Holland and it was pretty even. I think we can beat them upwind especially if we have our new mast and sail, though they are quicker downwind.
I like it that we are tought to be the benchmark for upwind speed.
We are starting to match the speeds of the F18's downwind especially if there arn''t too many windholes and the wind has some consistency.
We are open to such a drag race, let him contact me (or Peter Vink)
Arno
Well game on then, any body want to take a few wagers, as there are F20c and DNA's in Holland it should be pretty easy to set up.
To be honest my guess just through sheer horse power ( twice the upwind sail area and larger RM ) the F20 would have to be bets on, but if the DNA came anywhere close then it doesn't half show just how far the A's have been ahead of the rest of the fleet in design and development.
Umm, ok then. Arno has made some pretty inaccurate and since retracted remarks in the past. So i guess this will go down as yet another one...
Andrew, PM'ed you Arno's Email for you two to converse and set it up, if nothing else it would be interesting just to see how a very well developed boat can now compare to a new design using AC development.