Well?!?!?!?!??!?!

Robi,

It's c-c-c-c-c-o-o-o-o-o-o-l-l-l-l-l-d-d-d-d-d-d-d!!!

There is ice on some of the lakes in the Carolinas and that is not normal.

I am trying to get another boat up here. My friend is looking at the Melges 17 but he used to sail A cats in Aus. He likes the look of the Blade. We'll see if I can get him on board.

As for the ratings, it seems a bit unfair to rate the Uni the same as 2-Up. I intend to race it as a Uni so this hits close to the heart.

Post the new logo so we can see it.

Later,
Neville

Ref: http://www.formula16.org/content/view/53/42/lang,en/

This was obviously about logos on sails. But perhaps it is time to standarize on how logos should look? I dont have strong feelings about this, but for the recognition effect I see common sense in keeping to one logo. There is a reason companies are defending their logos with vigor when printers etc. try to alter it in even small ways (colors, aspect ratios, size or alterations like described by Robi).
A circle around the logo might be an attempt to emphazise and make it stand out for use on non-sailing gear? I dont know..

If we get a decision on this, and we probably should, I am adamant that the logo design have to be freely available on our website. Free for use within the class and for the class.

About the

slowdown

.. I agree and MarkP pointed it out earlier in another thread. There is a PR group forming now, but it is up to ourself (the class) to keep the forum and the class active. It is our own decision wether the forum should be active or dead. If nobody post interesting stuff, ask questions and keep things generally lively, interest _will_ decline. The PR group will work on getting reports from events and publish those, but we need more than that and all who would like to see activity on the forum should step up and contribute, keep old but interesting threads alive etc! E.g. what is happening with the boat Ncik built? It is all up to ourself to keep this forum the best catsailing forum around. If everybody are conscious about this and tries their best when they visit, it is no problem.
A quiet class is a sleeping class, agree totally!

Uni or two up ratings.. I think we have had this discussion a couple of times earlier. <img src=

alt=

/>

Re Current logo

I'd not like a logo with a circle around it. It's just a waste of time, vinyl and thread (and so time and money).

I like the current Logo <img src=

alt=

/>

Changing the logo really is a bad move IMO.
That doesn't translate into stability, determination, unity.
It translates into weakness. Maybe I'm too harsh.
Another thing, it is especially a bad move to modify a great looking logo with something that will resemble A ROAD SIGN.
A circle around it will make it look like a traffic sign IMO.

I don't want to offend the designer of the new logo (in case there is one), but a real designer won't transform a good logo into a traffic sign.
Sorry for the harsh review, if it is inappropriate I'm sorry and please disregard it.

And BTW - can we see the new traffic sign Robi ? After all I might be too harsh on something I haven't seen yet...

But plenty of solo sailors in EU and Aus have, you US guys just need to learn to sail faster.

Not only that but 2-up F16 sailors in EU and Aus also sail off a rating that is 5% faster in comparison to the F18's then the US sailors. I refer for example to Gary Maskial (even while sailing his converted A-cat = suboptimal) and the NAM-REM race last August in Zandvoort with both Marcus and Hans beating 45+20=65 other boats and crews while singlehanding. Not to mention Hans and Marcus doing really well against the Global Challenge 2-up F16's. Mark Pressdee had a few good runs here as well.

How much more peachy must the US F16 rating become for the US solo sailors to score a Handicapped win.

Come to think of it your statement is even incorrect for the US as well Robi. Constantine Serementis is racing his standard Taipan 4.9 with spi of the faster F16 2-up rating in Maryland and has reached the top of the leaderboard a few times. The new Blade F16 owners around him are at the top of the leaderboard as well (all solo sailors)

How I agree with Robi on the other points though !

And what is up with this

NEW

International F16 logo, we already have a logo that took years to establish as a commonly recognized symbol, why are we

changing horse midstream

on this ?

Forget redesigning the logo and try to get the French market cornered !!!!!

Wouter

Dear all,

I see there is a bit confusion about the showed circle but it is not that the circle is part of the logo it was just determine the size of the logo. The circle is NOT part of the logo we (GC) will NOT change the logo.

Where IS this logo you all are talking about. Could we please get the whole story so we can put this to rest?

It is the same F16 logo. It looks to have a circle around it (and I thought it did), but Hans has said that it only defines the outer edge of the logo and is not actually a part of the logo. The accompanying document also details placement of the logo (approx 300mm from leech and foot). I have not attached the accompanying document as I have it in .doc format at this time. The logo file is attached.

I believe this to be an effort at standardization and NOT a deviation from any precedent (assuming the circle is not part of the logo). Kudos the GC for doing it.

Right, no problem then. Good to hear!

I would suggest that the circle around the logo is stipled and clearly marked

Not part of logo, to be removed before usage

. Otherwise there will inevitably be a mixup.

Robi, what do you suggest on how to do this?

If you take the portsmouth mods for single handing a two person sloop, and the the mods for no jib on a sloop, the uni is faster. The only reason it is not always sailed faster is that you have a class with no min wt and feather wts are sailing two up. Seems like you have a generous rating no matter what. Yes, I have sailed with F16's, very nice, fast boats where weight is king, and no min crew wt is certainly an advantage in open racing. Just an opinion from an observer and fellow sailor, Rick

It is not a rumor, if the 2008 Portsmouth Tables reflect the comments from the annual US Multihull Council meeting. They stated that there would be one F16 handicap number (with individual, but identical handicap numbers for separate designs). The US Sailing Portsmouth Committee will release the new numbers some time in early 2008 (per some posting I saw a few weeks ago).

Absolutely incorrect. It is true that a 1-up has never beaten M/G or O/J in a full regatta (but neither have any other 2-ups <img src=

alt=

/>). 1-ups have beaten the top teams in single races, but not in a full series. Plenty of other 2-ups have been beaten by 1-ups. The 1-up sailors in Maryland have competed VERY well in their area. It is my opinion that sail design in the US has favored the 2-up configurations to this point. Only one way to disprove me – build some sails purpose built for 1-up and see how they compete.

It is up to you to use what you think is the best number available to you while racing open handicap. Your options will be limited after the release of the 2008 Portsmouth Tables. Additonally, I don't expect the number to remain 65.2.

Hans has cleared up the

circle issue

. READ the MS Word document on placement that was also included with the email. I think it is VERY clear where to put the logo (300 mm from the leech and 300 mm above the foot). I've attached the document to this post, as well (sorry for the grainy quality).

Good questions. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of hype about the Tradewinds Reggatta, but the Gulfport Regatta is starting to get some love. I’d expect the news to be more frequent as the weather turns warmer.

In retrospect, 2007 was a pretty damn good year for F16s in the US. There are now 53 F16s in the US, a “foreign” manufactured boat (Viper) hit the US shores for the first time in years (T4.9 was the first, then 1 or 2 Stealths), the Blade got good reviews as the 2007 Alter Cup boat, at least two districts will be represented by F16 sailors at the 2008 Alter Cup (Area D-North and Area D-South: Oley/Joanna and Matt/Gina WON their district qualifying), F16 populations are building in areas outside of the Southeastern US, the US F16 Class Association has been recognized by US Sailing as a viable entity. All in all, not too bad a year.

Additionally, the USF16 Constitution allows for two year terms for the officers of the Association. Two years will expire this July. The constitution needs to be amended to add positions for “PR and Publication” and “Measurer” (leading up to a National level event). PLEASE FEEL FREE TO MAKE IT KNOWN THAT YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING IN THE CLASS ASSOCIATION'S LEADERSHIP POSITIONS. I think an infusion of new blood at many levels will help build enthusiasm. I, for one, plan on stepping down as Vice Chairman once the new board is ratified. Certainly no big loss to the Association.

Wouter your reply is very welcomed, sadly you are misinformed. Constantine sailed at 67.1 http://www.sailregattas.com/crac/uploads/results/CRAC_LightHouse_Race-2006/Lighthouse%202006.htm

Another thing I clearly stated IN THE US. Yes I know we need to learn how to sail faster, you saying what we already know.
I honestly do not agree with this

going to a one rating thing

. But that is ME. Like I said, 1ups have been able to beat two ups but how many times? No one up team has been able to beat the fastest F16 team in the US team McDonald. If Team McDonald have enough sailing skill to have the Portsmouth committee lower the overall F16 rating, on the flip side it should say somehing about 1ups as well.
We not fast enough YET. so why go to an even faster number.

And do not get me started on the local sail builders willing to give us Uni guys some support!

Hans, thanks for claryfing the circle thing around the F16 log, I personally thought that was hideous. As as dimensions goes, the logo is wider than it is taller. In other words a rectangle, you cant go wrong with specifying a height and a width. Also I have emailed the logo to various people, I have received more than a few PMs asking to get it. The logo is available for free. Rolf if you do not have a copy I can get you one for the website.

Great Robi, please send me a copy and I'll do a piece on it for the website and put it where at least I think it belongs.

Rolf, do you prefer a jpg or gif (web applications) or an EPS for hosting? I can provide all three. The last format is the one used for vinyl cutters.

PM me the email please.

I would definately prefer all three, that is what we should make available. I would also be very happy if we could decide on some standard sizes for sails, boats and other stuff. I'll get right back to you on PM.

It could just be me, but I like it better with the circle (IMHO circles grab attention, it could also symbolise a globe).

(/me puts on flamesuit. <img src=

alt=

/> )

This appears to be the convention that was accepted some 2 and halve years ago and is indeed very similar to the F18 way of doing it.

Seems the GC has just formalized this agreement. I'm sorry if I contributed to the upset.

Using a different line style for the circle is probably a requirement to avoid future confusing and misunderstanding. A broken line of less thickness will do the trick I'm sure

Wouter

He did in that race yes, but not in several others. There is actually a nice story about Constantine forcefully asking (demanding ?) to be scored at the 2-up rating for his club races I believe. It think Keith Chapman told that story on the main forum about a year ago, but I won't look it up now.

And this years Global challenge doesn't count because Gina was replaced by Bart ?

Wouter

I sneaked by Terry and Tina at Carlisle, but not by much.

Nope it does not. Gina is 50% of the team! How many times must I repeat myself im talking about in the UNITED STATES! <img src=

alt=

/> No on in the US. Now did you miss it?

2 1-ups beat the 2-ups at this years Juana's Good Time Regatta at Navarre. I placed ahead of M/G in two races at Gulfport in 2006, but they killed me overall. It can be done, but the equipment still needs to be refined for 1-up in the US (my opinion). M/G's (and O/J's) dominance does not only cover the 1-ups. They've handed it to the 2-ups pretty good, too. You seem to ignore that fact.

http://www.wrcra.org/ then click on race results. All the 1-ups are sailing at 65.2 throughout last year. I thought that using 65.2 was pretty much the standard in the US.

I guess you didn't bother to read my long post with some of the answers to your questions.

Just want to clarify some of the Maryland info. The Lighthouse results were from 2006. I think Constantine requested to be rated at the two up number for the 2007 season at the fleet meeting before the season started. Thats before we knew that we were getting three Blades to keep his Taipan company. We all raced one up using the two up number in 2007. Ed

Robi,

We've (you and I) have talked about going to a single rating ... and you support that in the previous post back in Sept:

Robi Comment:

So something has changed here into 2008 that makes you think differently....is there anything we should (re)consider?

T.

yeah my opinion has changed, because I have not seen enough data to support the 1 up is faster than the 2 up.

Tom I did read your post, like I said I will live with this decision, because I have no other choice. But if it were up to me, I would use the 67.1 rating. I still do not understand why in the world was the one up F16s scored with the two up numbers for the alter cup qualifier when it was a total OPEN event?

We had it and did not use the number, I honestly think we have shot ourselves in the foot with this issue.

In the post that Terry has linked Bob could not say it any better. The boat has never been sailed 1up consistently to the 65.2 numbers.

And I didn't understand your point the first time either. Are you trying to argue that a one up F16 sails slower in the US than the rest of the world - obviously not, so I'm not sure why you're so eager to dismiss evidence from outside the US that the F16 formula produces performance that for all reasonable intents and purposes is equivalent across configurations (which is the issue, right?). Talk to us some more Robi.

My entire point is, no one here in the US has been able to beat the fastest F16 team while sailing in UNI-RIG configuration so why should the uni rig configuration drop its PN number down to the Sloop rating?

Doesnt PN go off the fastest boats sailed?

No one up boat has sailed consistently enough to merit the PN drop.

Robi, if what you're saying is true and I have no reason to disbelieve you then you have a valid point. Your PN is calculated like our PY rating in that it is not formed by a mathematical formula like SCHRS or TEXEL but on actual performances/results over the water.
In the UK it is up to the Clubs to return their results to the RYA in order for the PY numbers/ratings to be accessed for accuracy. The only draw back in this method is that there is no historical evidence for new Classes and the return forms are overly complicated so many Clubs don't bother completing them.
Getting back to the point it does seem strange that your PN has been dropped to the 2up rating if the results don't reflect this increase in speed. However, think yourselves lucky here in the UK 1 up F16's are rated faster than A Classes on TEXEL, F18's and 2 up F16's on both TEXEL and SCHRS.
So although the U.S 1 up rating has unfortunately been dropped please give a thought to your 1 up friends on the other side of the pond <img src=

alt=

/>

When there is the official F16 logo on the website, please make it as a vector graphic for vinyl plotters. Then it is scalable to size with smooth transitions. Last year i took an eps file from here to a local store and the the logo had some edges in the outline. I recutted them with a sharp knife, but this work shouldn't be necessary. If i remember, some post ago

Isvlorin

showed us a smooth logo and has it as vector graphic.

MarkP I hear ya.

Hopefully this year we can seriously start concentrating on boat speed and getting faster every time. I sadly wont be doing any of that because I am boatless, that aside though I hope those who are sailing get moving because I know once im back on track I will be sailing every time I can.

Holger:
I repaired the graphic a few years ago and that is the file that has been floating around. I want to say the vector graphic you speak of was acquired through me. Although im not 100% sure. I already provided the graphics in jpg, gif, ai and eps. The last two are the ones anyone would need to take to a local vinyl shop to get them cut.

Hope that works.

FYI: This thread was not started with the intent to fully discuss PN ratings. But mostly for clarification on what is going and what number to use. The questions have been answered. Although IMO these questions should NOT be raised but in fact brought to the table as soon as the information is available.