What would you want from a Championship?

Can the last race of the series be a

Medal Race

It was so much fun at our Nationals it really got my adrenalin pumping. It also kept everyboby guessing as to who would be the eventual winner as there could be various permutations. I would recommend the inclusion of Medal Races to anybody who helps organise regattas.
As for the social side a Happy Hour in the evenings post racing would go down well with me, and the occasional Disco but the women would have to out number the men by 2:1.

Hi John,

Great idea.

Firstly it would be very interesting to have an afternoon of no racing to compare boats, or go sailing with someone else on an other boat.

Secondly, I would be very interesting to have GPS-tracks on some (all) boats. It would be very useful for newbies to check on tactics ...

My boat should be ready by then, so I will be there !

Regards,
Gill

* BUMP *

This is undoubtably true. We've (I'm a club member at this club and are currently the race officer) have held many large events over the years. Each year there is a REM-race with about 100 participating boats. However having said all this, it is a question of budget; in the end you get what you pay for.

Having said this, I can tell that the club has all the hardware that is needed for such a F16 world championship. Bouys, boats, room and electronics. It will help enormously to offer the volunteers some compensation for their invested time. Afterall it is a week long event.

We can do it on the cheap which will mean we have to do alot ourselfs (probably me plus some helpers) using the hardware that is available or we spend some money on it and have it done for us.

Not that I need to be swayed but ...

I'm juts personally looking for alot of fun, that means that off-the-water the group is hanging together and organizing some impromptu BBQ and such. Maybe go to the casino on one night. Get the wifes and family members involved. One big socializing event. But not a schedule that forces everybody to do the same. Some nights maybe planned but others need to be left over to individual initiatives or individual plans.

I have no chance in winning this event. So I go there to be part of it, learn and enjoy myself. So some trim and tuning clinic will be very welcome to me. I would love to have another session with sailors of the skill like Daniel van Kerckhof. Another part of the attraction is the meeting of the other sailors.

I feel that a rest day is very wise, so part of the group can explore the Netherlands and the other part can join them or use this day do to some tuning/speed testing against others who decide to stay at the club.

Yes please !

I can't answer these questions as I don't bring a family. Personally I always find the cooking bit very enjoyable and very effective in molding the participants into one interacting group. When all have taken a shower and exchanged wetsuits for cloths they tend to crave a beer and are very willing to talk and help out in some preparation for cooking. An idea would be to rent some large burners and pans and have make our own meals while enjoying a drink and some talk. Probably not everynight but it could be some nights.

At the club we have a tent that we can put up on the elevated terras. We can even leave the sides off so we are dry or out of the sun but still have a good view of the beach and sea and even the sunset. I'm sure all these things can be arranged. And it will make us less dependent on the weather and on budget constraints.

To the guys coming from far; like the Americans, Australians, South Africans, Asians. It is a really good idea to extent your holliday here with a week of Valk sailing in the Northern part of the Netherlands. This is very enjoyable to both wife/kids and yourself. I never realized it as such, but when I took Phill Brander to do it in 2004 he expressed that he thought it was like nothing he ever imagined or experienced. He thought it so enjoyable that he'll consider it doing it again. Pretty much this Valk sailing means you navigate around in an area with lots of inland lakes and canals and pass through many smaller and old style towns. You can harbour at any town and enjoy the scenery and restaurants / bars. It is very much like wandering about as a backpacker but with a small boat and alot less spartan. The boats are very well fitted and cheap to rent and are actually quite good sailers. The trip itself is filled with sailing challenges like narrow winding canals and low bridges, but with these boats being designed for it, it is like doing an obstacle course with a well suited machine. You will be doing alot of sailing and sailing manouvres but the boat makes these very easy indeed. Never a dull moments and kid like it alot because things are happening and they can do it themselfs even. Maybe I should ask Phill to elaborate on this.

I vote for Daniel van Kerckhof/Annaliese Byrne. Very nice guy and he explains what needs to be done very well, Annaliese is much the same but much better looking from my perspective ! <img src=

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They understand the superwing mast very well and are inmensely fast with it.

John Pierce of course. You don't have many ex-olympic squad sailors with related huge amount of experience giving these clinics.

I believe Hans Klok and his dad can really work on our upwind speed when sailing singlehandedly. They can immediately tell what is wrong with your mainsail by looking at it.

Additionally I would love to have to see one of the better Spitfire crews do a clinic. Some of these teams are really fast. There must be heaps to learn from them.

I think it to be a good idea to seperate doublehanded sailing from singlehanded sailing trim clinics.

I would love to have a discussion about on board systems with the chaps. To see which are most simple and most effective. It is surprising how much you can learn from these talks/analysis especially when you can go down and look at the actual systems.

I really want to do a photo session that shows off our boats. Additionally it will be great material for website and future leaflets / magazine articles.

Also personally I would love to see the spitfire crews coming over. The more souls the more fun I say, besides we can learn heaps of them and they will keep our good sailors sharp.

I don't mind really if a Spitfire wins the first F16 Cup. I know it is always the skill of the crew that does so and not really the boat design. Besides the two design are soooo comparable in specs that it is rediculous to believe all is the result of these minute differences instead of sailor skills. And I still believe that Spitfire crews and F16 crews should stand together in the larger catamaran scene and showcase the light and small racing catamarans.

Personally I value a seperate long distance race during such an event with its own price, but I think you guys have this already covered with the REM-race in the concluding weekend (100 boats !). Maybe we should just arrange for a seperate F16 price ?

This is all for now

Wouter

All interesting stuff Wouter. Thanks.

Anyone else with suggestions/comments?

Personally, I enjoy having plenty of races in the programme. The current programme suggests 2 (or just 1) race a day. I'd prefer to see 3 a day, and if we want

off-time

let's take a full day off mid-week. Getting on and off the water takes a good couple of hours, so once on the water I like to get my money's worth, so to speak.

The medal race worked really well at Mumbles, and I think one of the reasons it was so good was that it was the 4th race of the day; we were all in the groove and knew how we were doing against the others in the conditions.

I always learn lots at these events, and a lot of that comes from the number of races. Mumbles had 12 starts against similar boats in 3 days. That's worth months of club racing in terms of what you learn.

I 2nd Wouter's suggestion that this should be a good photo opportunity for the class, and we should try to get a pro to come and do some.

In terms of what we do when off the water. I like to have a mix: some nights where arrange to eat and drink together, and others where we're free to do our own thing and go off and explore. That way we get a really good turnout on the days that we're doing stuff together.

Seminars from the experts sound like a great idea. I'd also be interested in some non-racing time on the water. Some of the days when I've learnt the most is when I've been out with a group of similar boats and we've sailed together - sailing as fast as we can, and then re-grouping as we spread out.

Paul

Wouter,
Sailing the Valks would be on my agenda, no question.

Not sure that any description that I could give would do the experience justice.

Before going to the Netherlands we toured around the UK, France,Switzerland Germany, Belgium and Italy. Touring in the Valks visiting ancient towns and cities that have not been ruined by comercialisation may not be for everyone, but for me, it was the highlight of the holiday.
Getting from one city to the next was a real experience with something new to see around every turn.
A case of the journey being equally as enjoyable as the unique destinations.

Regards,
Phill

What type of craft do you sail on the Valks? Enclosed **** or open like a cat'?

A Valk is not a waterway or a region/area. It/They is/are a type of craft:

Chaps; looking at John's post:

Given the fact we may loose days if the wind is in the wrong direction/strength to get thru the surf, I think it would be better to schedule 3 races per day of around an hour each. Maybe first at 12:00 (so early Lunch) and then 2 others back to back, thus hopefully off the water by 16:00 - 17:00

Thanks John. Looks fun.

Do you pack a light knapsack for clothes and such for the week?

I would also favour (at least) 3 races per day and having them last for about 45 min each.

It is a whole lot work putting the boat and bouys out (and retrieve them) for only 2 races per day.

Wouter

Crafts like this :

But the picture doesn't really do it justice. You need to hear the whole story.

I will type that up later tonight or tomorrow morning.

I think this is truly one of the unique things you can only do in the Netherlands and it truly is a activity the whole family can do very well. It is definately a significant part of Dutch common culture.

More later.

Wouter

I'd suggest slightly longer races; aim for first finisher within the hour so all are finished (hopefully) within 75 mins and then re-start within another 15 mins or so (hopefully again).

The boat can actually carry quite alot of bagage.

These boats have been continiously developped and improved over 50 years. It is the backbone of a favorite Dutch pasttime. Alot of us Ducth people. Go out sailing these boats for a long weekend or week. The boat becomes our home and transport that takes from town to town. The area you are sailing is an area with many small lakes and waterways, most of them are interconnected. The area is fully enclosed by land and so there is no tide, surf or even significant waves. You can continue sailing these craft comfortably till very high winds. The lakes themselfs are only between 1 meter and 2.5 meters deep. You can stand in most places. Picture it as a old reed marsh land that has been colonized and cultivated for centuries. Some of it became low laying pastures and some became the lakes and waterways. The two seperated by miles and miles of small dykes and raised towns. The water was the main artery between the different towns and pastures for centuries. Then in the 17th century the rich dutch merchants invented the sport of yachting. This English word was derived from the Dutch word

jacht

which means nothing more then a boat (yacht) that is not owned for commercial sailing but for pleasure sailing. Yachting (or jachten) is the activity linked to enjoying a jacht.

For centuries the commercial vessels (working boats) and a select number of jachts shared the waterways. Later the water transport was replaced by big motorized vessels and even transport by road(truck) and track (trains, streetcars). This coincided with the rise of disposable income of the common man. He then took to the sport of yachting and many bought these old working boats and converted them into pleasure craft. This became so succesful that a whole scene developped around this activity and more specialized yachts were designed. The English took over the sport of Yachting from the Dutch and pretty much introduced it world wide. But in modern times the more common man took to this activity as well and they still do. It is a major activity in the netherlands and several different forms were developped. Valk sailing is the more accissible form of it.

Valk sailing requires pretty much only basic sailing skills. It is done on well protected shallow waters (enclosed lakes etc). Of these area's the area of Friesland is by far the most pretty. The area was left behind by modern times and therefor is largely untouched by modern buildings like factories and such. The towns themselfs are maintain their old centres and buildings. Some town are still fully composed of renovated old quarters. The Second world war this area was left undamaged, that sort of helps.

... continuing later. ...

...Continueing ...

Most of our events are 2 day events. We find that most races are decided in about 45 mins. That means in a 2 day event we get 3 races on the 1st day and 2 on the 2nd, with plenty of time for prizegiving and packing up on the 2nd day. Because we always have a good social calendar <img src=

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/>, Racing on the 1st day (usually Saturday)starts at miday and racing on the Sunday starts an hour earlier.
You can see by the attached photo taken on the Saturday night at our recent

Inlands

, that the atmosphere was great. Unfortunately the guy with the camera was pis--d.

That is my analysis too. Most is won or lost ont he start and first lag then some can be retrieved on the downwind leg and second lap. After that it is pretty much fixed. Even tacticat shows something like this.

Personally I do rather 3 races of about 45 min per day then two 70 min ones. Time spend on the water is the same with both (including 5 min starts) !

3 races per day also allows a rest day without cutting too much in the total number of races over the event. For an event like this I think we should aim for at least 7 races before the event has ended, taking into account losing an additional day to weather or something (no wind for example).

Wouter

Don't actually agree; one large gust coming in as the tail enders round the windward mark can carry them down right up behind the learders (sufferend with this one before <img src=

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One hour - 70 mins gives people a chance to recover from a bad start.

If you are not carefull and make the races too short, people will push the start too hard which might not be a good idea in big seas !

I must admit that I'm a fan of more shorter races for the following reasons. Longer races (50mins +)do ultimately become precessions and towards the end of these races I personally give up attacking and start defending. During longer races the fleet can get pretty drawn out which isn't advantageous for anybody, the closer the competition is the more you learn. Being a tail end Charlie is no fun in long races not only is there a humilating chance of being lapped, but a feeling of guilt of holding up the preceedings as you are trying to get over the finish line, whilst the majority of the competitors are itching to be racing again. Shorter races should lead to more races which I beleive leads to more accurate results (don't forget that I don't beleive in discards but thats another issue). Shorter races keeps all the competitors much closer together which is better for the individuals and Class. I also find doing more races more rewarding. Shorter races on a shorter course is a true test of boat handling and strategies (less room for errors). I'm not aware of competitors pushing the line more or for that matter hanging back from the line depending on the duration of the race but thats only me. More races at present equals more discards!!! I also like to feel that I'm getting value for money, at this years Nations Cup the entry fee was £35.00 for twelve races other events I've been to were £25.00 for six. As competitors travelling to these events I think you do get more overall value if the races are kept short and sweet with plenty of them.

Keep the comments coming guys, we ARE listening!

What we propose is to review ALL comments during Oct/Nov and then put up a series of short polls. By the end of January 07, we'll put up a definitive programme for the F16 Global Challenge 2007. This will be based on YOUR feedback.

There's been a fair amount of chat about the racing side of a championship and, I agree, that's very important. we've had a little bit of chat about free days/evenings - but what are people's views on the entertainment/seminar side of things?

Are you all Karaoke Kings? BBQ addicts? Disco Divas?

Are you a total sucker for the detail of sail design? hull trim? foil shapes?

Do you have a particular 'hero' you want to hear/meet?

Or do you just want to get p***ed every evening? <img src=

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At Pajuelin regatta, held last week in Benidorm (spain) we had a Tacticat soiree.

It allowed sailors who couldnt attend to share some of the fun of the meeting, from australia europe and america.
It provided some exposure world-wide and made an entertaining night.
We had big screens to show the race to people who sails other boats or no boat at all. We even had a trophy and a combined-classification for those also sailing for real...

Problem is you are talking about next summer. That's very long term for tacticat future. But it Tacticat is still there you can count it (if you want... of course)

Amando.

That would be a brilliant idea Amando - especially if combined with an extended 'Happy Hour' <img src=

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Hi John,

Can I just mention making the most out of one set of results; there is usually lots of data to be mined but most clubs/events don't take advantage of it.

If you take elapsed times (or start/finish times), competitors can reflect if that one bad tack might have made a difference and it also allows you to score without and with single-handed/double-handed handicaps (the latter just for 'fun'). Taking elapsed times also facilitates including/excluding other classes in the results that may have started later but sailed the same course; like we did with the As when you sailed at Mumbles.

It's also fun to score the event (and give token prizes) based on club, age-group (how about introducing a 'Masters' category) and platform (Stealth/Blade etc) - adds extra dimension and mini-competitions to the main event in such a way that everybody is included to a greater degree and provides good bar banter. Most scoring software will do all this with minimum hassle; almost every competitor can be winning in some way or another.

At formula events like F16/F18 I personally think it's interesting to get the competitors to include platform, spar, foil and sail manufacturer etc when registering and include them in the published results.

Amando, you know what would be really nice to have.

A program that can read plan txt gps files and make an animation that shows the individual boats move in a sped up play back of the race.

This play-back would be an enormous benefit in the evenings to evaluate the tactical moves made and it will very clearly show the errors and where a crew won or lost it.

The data gethering part is not difficult at all. Several of us have been doing that for years now. Sadly we can only animate one boat at the time in the software we have. And its presentation is a little bit to vague to be easily interpreted.

Would it be possible to use your tacticat interface to animate these GPS tracks ? Afterall the tracks themselfs are just basic coordinates which can be transformed into any form desired. Carthesic, Polar, custom grid, geographical grid. You name it. Hell I can even program stuff like that what I can't do is program the display interface.

Would that be difficult do you think ?

Wouter

That is not related with this thread, but you asked for it….

The issues:
· The boats data has to be complete. If there are missing boats you lose critical info. All boats should carry a GPS.
· The data has to be coherent. I’m not sure if different GPS makes or models are able to store the log data with the same accuracy. It is sure that different models will use different algorithms to extrapolate or to log dynamically.
· Origin data. I assume time is sychronized on all GPS units, not sure the same can be said for x and y coordinates.
· Extra data is needed. GPS reading for all marks, pin and RC boat. GPS reading of Start time.

So,
Let’s assume we have all data. The data is complete and coherent and we have some means to aggregate it (that seems easy). We do have a file with a lot of lines each one with: timestamp, boat_id, x-coord, y-coord, vx-coord, vy-coord

Tacticat server or client would read the data and will run a clock for regatta-time. At every timestamp the boat_id would be placed at (x,y) coordinates and would be given (vx,vy) speed. While no other record is reached, Tacticat simulator would advance the boat at the pre-assigned speed.

So far, so good.

Only problem: how to paint the boat… we know the location. The problem is with the orientation, GPS info gives no clue how the boat is oriented. We can assume that is oriented like its speed but that would produce funny results when the boat stops or go backwards.

A guestimate of cost (assuming the data is OK and accepting the previos remark about orientation): 8 programming hours, 4 for test and 4 more for packaging and webalizing.

A nice extra…. Data can be feed on-line, if GPS unit can rely the data to a ground station… : Live feed to Intenet of a running real regatta. And that for free. (I’m not counting the hardware and integration costs for a on-board GPS and signal unit).

Bottom line conclusion:
None from my side.

If orientation/heading of the boat is an issue, how about setting it as a constant to 0deg? After all, it is the tracks which relate the real information.

You estimate 16 hours of development time (which sounds very reasonable to me, as a former programmer), what do you charge pr. hour? This is a function that would be useful at other timesthan just the coming event.

How would you build the interface allowing for upload of all these files?

Watch a Tacticat race and you'll understand, we're talking show-business here. We would want the ability to see the cat, not a dot. How it tacks, how is oriented in pre-start...

I think it is not relevant. The estimate makes assumptions that, I'm afraid, are difficult to validate. Validation would cost much more than the actual coding. We're in the same spot we were when designing Tacticat: the code is easy, cheap. The difficult thing is to know what to do to get something that can be used and enjoyed.

Where to upload? You mean internet server?. Current tacticat users have in their own computers a client application that 'uploads' boats status or commands. Users give commands for tack, for gybe,... the same interface would be used to upload location/speed info.

Like you said, the resolution between different GPS units will vary so the result will be poor or even outright confusing. What is interesting (and possible to show) is how the boats move in relation to each other.

I was thinking that this could be used as a tool to run trough races in plenum on a large screen. Starting e.g. 10-20 sessions of tacticat on the same computer would be cumbersome?

Can I get this thread back on track please guys? <img src=

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Interesting as your virtual race replay discussion is - go and play in you own BL**DY thread!!! <img src=

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