Macca, is someone twisting your arm to force you to force your crap on the F16 Class?
Who's your daddy? How much is he paying you to spew? Better yet, how much of YOUR money have YOU SPENT on a new F16? What? You don't own one? Why? Too light?
Why do you give a frak what we do? Really, why?
Don't you have anything better to do than to come to the F16 site and peddal your BS?
Seriously?
Get a life.
The F16 class was and is doing fine without your help. Do you want me to lock you in a room with Wouter?
Macca: I see what you are saying but you have to agree your views are at this moment hypothetical and probably will be for quite a few years.
When winning an F16 Worlds will be as prestigeus as winning a T worlds or F18 Worlds then people will happily spend $20k+ on a new super lightweight boat but IMHO that will not be any day soon (a good thing as well probably).
Hi Karl, not wanting to increase weight myself..
I believe Formula boats is building to weight. In glass and foam.. They make a viable quality product....
Cant say about the other builders.. But by all accounts the F16 builders do quality work.....
When winning an F16 Worlds will be as prestigeus as winning a T worlds or F18 Worlds then people will happily spend $20k+ on a new super lightweight boat but IMHO that will not be any day soon (a good thing as well probably).
Hi Tony,
it's just a lot better to get the formula right sooner rather than later when there are many different variations out there.
And to say that nobody will spend 20k on an optimized f16 is like saying there is no point in having the rules as free as they are.
No I disagree and I think proof is in the pudding! Boyer was the boat builder of that operation and to my knowledge he has not been replaced and they have lost capacity. Has anyone actually weighed or even seen a new Taipan? <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> Maybe they will UP the minimum weight for that class as well (already did once) or simple destroy the molds like they did with the 5.7. <img src="<>/frown.gif" alt="frown" title="frown" height="15" width="15" /> So yes it's my opinion that Goodall sails is incapable of producing Acats or even a Taipan (Kevlar option no longer available) much less an F16 at minimum weight. Again the proof is in the results. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
As for all the talk of an all carbon F16 but that is a complete BS propaganda too in my opinion. Whom could they get to build it for them and at what price? And who's going to be stupid enough to build one out of carbon (besides Mecca) when they could just as easily build to minimum weight using a glass and Kevlar combination as Boyer developed for the Taipan?..<img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> Come on these are not Acats at 70kgs! Pure propaganda.... <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />
mediocrity
as you assert, but instead a design and build decision balanced between cost and benefit - which is a positive feature of the class.
While Boyer has moved on to other projects that hold his interest, I can say there is absolutely zero difference in build quality between the Capricorn I had with Boyer's name on it and the 2009 boat I have that doesn't. Jim is amazingly talented. It is legitimate to say so. But you are simply wrong in your assertion that Jim's amicable departure has changed how AHPC makes boats or resulted in dropping the A-cat from their line-up because they are incapable of making one.
Who's your daddy? How much is he paying you to spew? Better yet, how much of YOUR money have YOU SPENT on a new F16? What? You don't own one? Why? Too light?
Why do you give a frak what we do? Really, why?
Don't you have anything better to do than to come to the F16 site and peddal your BS?
Seriously?
Get a life.
The F16 class was and is doing fine without your help. Do you want me to lock you in a room with Wouter?
Timbo,
I have two men in masks standing over me right now with guns pointed at me. They tell me exactly what to say and I simply type away...
AHPC have lost the capacity to build boats in AUS...... As they have shifted opperations offshore like many other boat builders because it is more cost efficient. Could yhey have the capacity to produce boats again, yes if they geared up for it and brought in the expertise but would you be willing to pay the $$$$ for the all AUS built boat. That's business and I am sure Greg plans to keep his busniess profitable and competitive in the market place.
As for a minimum weight Viper, yes it could be done, it would use a lot of Carbon, It would be significantly quicker, would cost more than an A class and no it would not be a financially viable product.
AHPC have produced an F16 complient boat, but their aim is to build the Viper class to a state where it would be a strong International class without the need of the F16 class to build it's numbers.
And no, I don't think anyone will come out with a 'fully optimised' F16 any time soon (because the investment will not be even close to the reward), but it is sure as hell possible.
As for all the talk of an all carbon F16 but that is a complete BS propaganda too in my opinion. Whom could they get to build it for them and at what price? And who's going to be stupid enough to build one out of carbon (besides Mecca) when they could just as easily build to minimum weight using a glass and Kevlar combination as Boyer developed for the Taipan?..<img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> Come on these are not Acats at 70kgs! Pure propaganda.... <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />
mediocrity
as you assert, but instead a design and build decision balanced between cost and benefit - which is a positive feature of the class.
While Boyer has moved on to other projects that hold his interest, I can say there is absolutely zero difference in build quality between the Capricorn I had with Boyer's name on it and the 2009 boat I have that doesn't. Jim is amazingly talented. It is legitimate to say so. But you are simply wrong in your assertion that Jim's amicable departure has changed how AHPC makes boats or resulted in dropping the A-cat from their line-up because they are incapable of making one.
You need to get you facts straight!!! We are 100% capable of producing a fully carbon F16 or an A class. I don't know who you are or how you think you are qualified to comment on our abilities. By your
proof in the pudding
comment we could deduce that we are unable to produce anything we don't already.
DO NOT make it appear we pushed the Tiapan association to Up the Weights. We stated that only a few boats are currently under weight and that the new boats wouldn't be lighter, and as Dazz stated the association voted in it. We DO NOT run the association.
Jim was NOT replaced.... he decided it was his time to engage in other projects. That is not the
political line
that is FACT. He left and the Hull production has now been moved off shore. We are producing more boats that we have every done before. Jim was a master boat builder but he did not have the capability to keep up with what we are producing now. I have all the official numbers to back this up.
As for the quality??? You better be careful otherwise somebody might mistake you for someone who knows what they are talking about. The quality now is as good as ever, and the consistency and accuracy is superb.
To finish; Building a Viper with Taipan technology... do you build boats??? Even design them???? Do you want to know why the VIPER is such a better F16 than the Tiapan?? It is hull Volume and it is the platform stiffness. Oh look these add weight... take them out to save weight and you end up back at the Taipan.
You clearly have a problem with the direction that AHPC has gone, I find this purely offensive because Greg Goodall does what he does out of the love of the sport. He has always been building and designing boats in the interest of the customers.
If you have an outstanding issue with AHPC please E-mail me and I will discuss it with you.
Thank you
Brett GOODALL
maybe I should go build the
ultimate F16
and show its no faster(in my hands) than the average F16..
I personally believe the F16 builders make quality products.. Apart from my boat that is.. But I build using what I'm comfortable with..
So what is the
ultimate F16
? the only real issue is the masts.. Im not convinced a mast can be light years ahead of AHCPs quality Ally wing.. So which mast is the best in your opinion?
As for final costs.. My time will be the biggest cost.. I don't charge out in small amounts..
Stewart,
How about we just look at your argument regarding Alloy v Carbon masts. Lets take the Tornado as an example. Its a perfect case study:-
The Alloy Tornado Masts were the highest quality you can buy but when the class allowed Carbon it was very clear that the Carbon masts were much quicker than the Alloy. So then to be competitive you had to have a carbon mast. Do you want that to happen in the F16?
question does the Tornado have a tip weight designed to minimise the carbons benefits?
also to be honest I also believe the AHCP wing is actually better than the Tornados stick.. then its only my opinion.. lets hear from Goodall...
Stewart,
The Tornado carbon mast has no tip weight, but the F16 tip weight is so small that there is no impact on the masts performance and the performance gain is considerable.
And who gives a **** whether the Wing is a better section than the tornado teardrop section. The comparison I used was between two different materials, with the same section so it's a perfect example of material difference not design differences.
<**** comments here around, about cfrp (carbon) as the wonder weapon to save weight. There are many other possibilities to reduce weight without impact on structural integrity.
In my business with save around 10% weight per 20 years (not only better materials, but also better engineering, processes, etc.) and I think there are similar figures for other industries. Small boat industry resists this trend.
I wonder why a Torando could weight 160kg in timber and alu 30 years ago, and why a F16 now should weight 140kg, which is shorter, less wide, has less sail area and is build for lower crew weight.
In my opinion, that is because most classes are either OD, or Formula with is very friendly to the manufacturer (yet that are/can be quite nice boats). The formula 16 is a bit different, because it is more customer friendly (less weight) and this might be the reason, why there is this constant attacking by manufacturer (well by some persons who are paid by...)
Cheers,
Klaus
well see this is where you and I differ..
Firstly the ally in the AHCP wing is a significantly better temper than the Tornado drop..
secondly : I think the tip weight rule is a significant issue.. Add 5 kg to the tip of your F18 and see what it does!!
So in the ultimate F16 which mast should I get..
<**** comments here around, about cfrp (carbon) as the wonder weapon to save weight. There are many other possibilities to reduce weight without impact on structural integrity.
In my business with save around 10% weight per 20 years (not only better materials, but also better engineering, processes, etc.) and I think there are similar figures for other industries. Small boat industry resists this trend.
I wonder why a Torando could weight 160kg in timber and alu 30 years ago, and why a F16 now should weight 140kg, which is shorter, less wide, has less sail area and is build for lower crew weight.
In my opinion, that is because most classes are either OD, or Formula with is very friendly to the manufacturer (yet that are/can be quite nice boats). The formula 16 is a bit different, because it is more customer friendly (less weight) and this might be the reason, why there is this constant attacking by manufacturer (well by some persons who are paid by...)
Cheers,
Klaus
Klaus,
The Tornado is a good measure because the quality of the sailors is of a high and consistent standard, there were regattas held as the carbon mast was introduced where there was a mix in alloy and carbon rigs competing and the carbon masts were faster even at the early stages of sail development for the new masts.
If you look at the surface area on a Tornado hull you will find that its less than a current generation F18 and not so much bigger than a Viper, simply put: the newer hull shapes are bigger. The weight difference between a Tornado and a Viper is around 40kg which is quite a difference when you consider that the hull area is quite close and the F16 Mast area is close to the Tornado, beams are same section just shorter.. not too many areas to get rid of 40kg are there??
And I just want to clear something up here: I am not being paid by any manufacturer. Currently I have no contracts with any catamaran manufacturer.
Firstly the ally in the AHCP wing is a significantly better temper than the Tornado drop..
secondly : I think the tip weight rule is a significant issue.. Add 5 kg to the tip of your F18 and see what it does!!
So in the ultimate F16 which mast should I get..
The F16 rule states there is a 6kg min tip weight, now I haven't measured a F16 compliant mast alloy or carbon, but would think that the alloy mast would have a tip weight around 9kg (tornado used to be 10kg tip weight min and they were tapered so pretty small up there plus all the masts I had were carrying around 500g lead)
So the real question is: would you like to take 3kg off the tip of your alloy mast? I sure as hell would!
Macca the statement above sort of puts you in the same frame as our current Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, that of making statements without really thinking through what he is stating, for purely point scoring reasons.
You state openly that back yard builders are not capable of making good boats because they don't have the technical facilities to be able to do so. At the moment the backyard boys ( who probably make more F16's than AHPC )make boats to weight and the one company who has bought in production ( AHPC only buys in hulls from another company )knowledge, can't.
Now I put that down to one simple reason, profit margins. AHPC have gone down the route of outsourcing production because it has a higher profit margin, no different to probably 1000's of companies in the world. The downside is by using cheap labour and outsourcing you get less control of production methods.
Anyway I'm not sure why we are having this conversation when the Viper is doing so well in sales, AHPC must be getting pretty pissed by now as the F16 sailors will turn against them, particularly if they continue on with this weight issue. Guys get on with selling ( and hence converting sailors ) F16's to the masses.
my stick carries 3 kg to be compliant...
So you mast tip weight is 3kg before adding correctors?? that makes your mast weigh somewhere around 8-9kg total??? sounds very light...
Macca the statement above sort of puts you in the same frame as our current Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, that of making statements without really thinking through what he is stating, for purely point scoring reasons.
You state openly that back yard builders are not capable of making good boats because they don't have the technical facilities to be able to do so. At the moment the backyard boys ( who probably make more F16's than AHPC )make boats to weight and the one company who has bought in production ( AHPC only buys in hulls from another company )knowledge, can't.
Now I put that down to one simple reason, profit margins. AHPC have gone down the route of outsourcing production because it has a higher profit margin, no different to probably 1000's of companies in the world. The downside is by using cheap labour and outsourcing you get less control of production methods.
Anyway I'm not sure why we are having this conversation when the Viper is doing so well in sales, AHPC must be getting pretty pissed by now as the F16 sailors will turn against them, particularly if they continue on with this weight issue. Guys get on with selling ( and hence converting sailors ) F16's to the masses.
Now you are the one that is having comprehension issues Wayne, I stated that its not possible for a home builder to build an all carbon boat to the same standard and weight savings that a professional can with the suitable equipment.
I have not at any stage said that a home builder can't build a good boat. I know they can and have seen it done many times, however they will not be able to build a boat that is as optimised as someone who has access to prepreg, nomex and a big angry autoclave... I have also seen boats built this way and I can tell you which one is a better product, lighter, stronger and all round better.
And for you to state that the quality control of the facilities where AHPC build their boats is not as good as a home/small builder clearly shows you have the Gordon Brown disease... I have personally visited both locations where AHPC build hulls and I can say that both companies build a top class product that rates up there with the very best in the world. I presume you haven't visited said factories??? No, didn't think so...
If I remember correctly, most of the F16s at global challenge weighed around 112 KG. My blade rigged for 2 up was 111 KG. That is not far from min weight. I don't think a weight reduction of 4 KG would result in, at least for me, a noticeable performance increase. It is not a logical argument to use the viper's weight of 130 KG as the standard weigh of an F16, then make a general comment that an F16 that weighs 23 KG less would be faster and much expensive. You can spend all you want on prepreg, using an autoclave, carbon mast, carbon beams, ect. On most F16s you can only loose 4-5 KGs before you start having to add it back. Some are at min weight already. So the idea that the class will self destruct when someone builds a min weight boat is ridiculous. Most boats are pretty close to min weight already.
Who's your daddy? How much is he paying you to spew? Better yet, how much of YOUR money have YOU SPENT on a new F16? What? You don't own one? Why? Too light?
Why do you give a frak what we do? Really, why?
Don't you have anything better to do than to come to the F16 site and peddal your BS?
Seriously?
Get a life.
The F16 class was and is doing fine without your help. Do you want me to lock you in a room with Wouter?
Timbo,
I have two men in masks standing over me right now with guns pointed at me. They tell me exactly what to say and I simply type away...
Damn, I knew it!
Now, should we send in the marines to rescue you or Mousad?
So when are you going to put up some of your own money and buy an F16? OR, if you want to have the Super F16, have Marstrom build you a carbon F16 5kg below wt. so you can add weights??
If I recall correctly the AHCP stick was measured as baseline for the rules.. I cant recall tho if the tip weight is the AHCP mast.. But I recall it being very close..
And I just want to clear something up here: I am not being paid by any manufacturer. Currently I have no contracts with any catamaran manufacturer.
The one key word here is
Currently
. So, who are you -trying- to get hired by? If you were to get the F16 mn. wt. raised, do you get a free ride? You should talk Marstrom into building you the $30K Wonder F16, that'll show us how stupid we all are...
WOUTER! Get back in here and straighten Macca out!
hint try SE 70 from SP only needs a 75 degree cure with a post cureno autoclave.. less mess and if you have ever seen me build anything believe me that is a GOOD thing!!
nahh send in the marines to rescue mousad .. but you may need the SAS to rescue the marines!! <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
<**** comments here around, about cfrp (carbon) as the wonder weapon to save weight. There are many other possibilities to reduce weight without impact on structural integrity.
In my business with save around 10% weight per 20 years (not only better materials, but also better engineering, processes, etc.) and I think there are similar figures for other industries. Small boat industry resists this trend.
I wonder why a Torando could weight 160kg in timber and alu 30 years ago, and why a F16 now should weight 140kg, which is shorter, less wide, has less sail area and is build for lower crew weight.
In my opinion, that is because most classes are either OD, or Formula with is very friendly to the manufacturer (yet that are/can be quite nice boats). The formula 16 is a bit different, because it is more customer friendly (less weight) and this might be the reason, why there is this constant attacking by manufacturer (well by some persons who are paid by...)
Cheers,
Klaus
Klaus,
The Tornado is a good measure because the quality of the sailors is of a high and consistent standard, there were regattas held as the carbon mast was introduced where there was a mix in alloy and carbon rigs competing and the carbon masts were faster even at the early stages of sail development for the new masts.
If you look at the surface area on a Tornado hull you will find that its less than a current generation F18 and not so much bigger than a Viper, simply put: the newer hull shapes are bigger. The weight difference between a Tornado and a Viper is around 40kg which is quite a difference when you consider that the hull area is quite close and the F16 Mast area is close to the Tornado, beams are same section just shorter.. not too many areas to get rid of 40kg are there??
And I just want to clear something up here: I am not being paid by any manufacturer. Currently I have no contracts with any catamaran manufacturer.
You missed my point. I didn't say the CFRP mast on T's isn't better. It is just the question by how much. Now translate this difference from professional sailors, which as you say are close in performance and put in down on week end club level sailing. There will be no difference, as can also read in the results of F16 races: A Stealth f16 is no guarantee to victory.
The mast of a T is 1m taller, each beam is 0.5m longer, I am too lazy to calc the complete sail area, but is significant larger and as consequence the forces are larger, the torque loads are way higher. Since the lower loads on a F16, much lighter crosssection for the beams could be used, but also other load carrying parts can be lighter.
I haven't calculate, but I would estimate a F16, if sized with the same criteria to be around 100kg-110kg (I was thinking of home building one some time ago). And this is just based on a T, designed in timber and alu, back in 1970 or so...
So no need to argue the min weight would be unrealistic. If a manufacturer decide to use parts from the F18 production and design the hulls for carring two full size adults, it will be heavier, not necessarily slower. It's a design choice.
Some manufacturers will not achieve it, or they have boats in the same market segment.
Maybe some of them or some of their dealers have you paid in the past or will you pay in future.
But the big point finally is, that the class member are happy with their rules, the boats and the boat builder involved. So why change something?
Cheers,
Klaus
Macca, never have I said that AHPC makes a poor product, from the one I have seen in the flesh, the cosmetic finish and layout is very good. From reading in the press, it is a fast well made boat and in my view caters for the 2 up light weight market. Great market strategy and will sell plenty of boats. Good on them and long may they sell plenty. Incidently does anybody know of what the latest Viper hull number is, some of you have recieved one of the later ones in Europe recently.
As to visiting their two production facilities, sorry no. The only composite factory I have visited was a top glider manufacturer where the layup men are given a computer calculated amount of foam, glass and epoxy and told to build x component. Nothing left over, nothing wasted and no excess weight. Not sure whether the boat builders do the same.
Macca you really need to talk to AHPC as doing what you are doing in having constant pop shots at the F16 class using the Viper as the case in point, is building up a head of steam against the Viper, In the long term it will not do AHPC much good as far as sales go. Its much better to be a part of a larger market than to try and establish a niche market for your product. Perhaps contact Gregg and Brett and discuss a joint strategy for furthering their long term company aims.
Our
friend
is just another in a long line of detractors who see the F16 as a threat to their own favorite platform.
Engaging him just encourages him.
Stop talking to him.
Lightweight for the F16's, or catsailing as a whole? From putting 365#'s on my own Viper, it handles it quite well.