Why does Macca hate F16s?

To go back to the original question.... I have not read any emotions in Macca's (Andrew's) comments (towards the F16 as a class) thus far. They all appear quite sensible, coming from someone who has vast experience in sailing cats and whatever comes with it.

I have been following this forum for about two years now, and frankly, the emotive and insinuating comments I have read have come from so called 'hard core' F16 forum clubbers, and you guys do not make joining your fleet a very appealing proposition (you may actually be quite different in real life....). The example of starting a discussion with this title is just telling....

I AM very interested in buying a F16 (-like) cat and sail it with my wife and kids, including racing. I have been sailing the Cap for three years and love (the quality of) the product. Now that AHPC appears to have established a serieus dealership in Europe, I think it's about time to trade in my Cap (if that's an option).

Oh, and that does not mean I have given up on F18 sailing (before we get that discussion started again).

I am surely stepping on a few toes here, such is life. But I thought it would be useful for some of you to get some 'outside' feedback to the ranting that seems to go on and on here on this forum.

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Heavyweight big boys has gotta be the F20, midweight to big boys F18, lightweight duo ( man and women or dad and rugrat ) F16, solo dad ( when he doesn't have a crew ) F16 and don't forget the A class for the techies, that would be my interpretation of things.

Are they that much quicker?

I've talked to one of the top Tornado sailors in the US about this subject, and they have said that that's not true.

When the carbon masts were starting to be used there was a certain Tornado team looking for a carbon mast, but couldn't get it in time for the regatta. And this was a Tornado regatta, not some regular mixed fleet regatta so there was going to be really good sailors there.

Guess what, the team that was looking for the Carbon mast kicked everybody's butt in varying conditions at that regatta with an ALLOY mast.

Here is another example...

At the last Global Challenge, there was a Viper that had a carbon mast...Guess what, they didn't get in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th place...Well, I can't remember if they got 4th, but they weren't in the top 3.

I'm tired of this debate about if a Carbon mast is better than the Alloy mast, there have been plenty of instances where that is NOT true.

The only thing carbon does significantly better, is save weight...That's it...nothing else...Maybe stiffer.

<img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Mike

From Mamaloe above (4 posts total):

...from so called 'hard core' F16 forum clubbers...

Hey Mamaloe, WE 'hard core' clubbers are the ones who have invested OUR time and OUR money to build the F16 class, only to have some butt like Macca come along and start throwing monkey poo all over the board, and he's never even sailed one at any regatta I've seen.

So, given that you and Macca are guests here, at our party, and neither one of you have invested a single cent to the F16 class, why don't you both just stay on the F18 where you are a member?

Until you buy an F16 (with your -own- money, Macca) you really have no reason, or vote, to bitch. You don't like our rules? Stay on the F18!

Timbo,

You do make it very tempting to join the class, with your attitude I think you should be an official ambassador.

Ok Mike,

If the Carbon mast is no quicker, why allow it?? the cost for a Carbon mast is many times greater than the Alloy ones so why open the door to such outrageous expenses when your class is pitched at non professionals?

And if the reason is that some of the founding boats had carbon masts then thats fine, grandfather those boats/masts and then for the future restrict it to Alloy and keep the cost of entry down to a reasonable level, therefore further enhancing the F16's growth.

Talking to Greg on the weekend. From memory, they had boat 78 and 79 in the factory ready to ship. (could have been 88 and 89???)

I do have to say, the rest of the sailing world spend time removing grams from their boats and you guys don't think 5kg will make much difference. Either they are crazy, or you are kidding yourself.

Why does the F16 class have a min weight if weight does not make much difference. Why not let someone sail an F16 under 100 kg.

If most boats weighed in at 111 to 112, why not set the min weight at 115 and bring those boats up to weight with a bit of lead. Then the heavier moats will be a little closer in weight. The Taipan 4.9 class recognised few boats were being produced under weight, so lifted the min to an achievable target...... it really is not a bad thing.

Carbon mast T is quicker, not only because of the reduced weight but much reduced pitching. This is where the biggest gain came from.

what a lot of bullcrap argument.. very slippery slope!!

lets take that to the extremes.. if a ply boat is as quick why allow foam/glass the grandfather all composite boats and ban all new versions. If a sisal rope boat is no quicker then ban all non-sisal ropes.. .. hell a step further.. if NSW has a speed limit we should ban any car capable of more than that limit.. That line of thinking isn't critically thought out..

would you care to define reasonable level? maybe we should define profit margins inside the class?

Excellent point Stewart,

You need to choose a suitable level of technology and cost, by default the level at the moment is being dictated by the largest selling boat that complies with the class rules. It is an epoxy foam/glass boat with alloy beams and mast. That is working out fine and the class is growing well by attracting new members, Why put that at risk by allowing such freedoms in the rule that permit somebody to build a boat that is quicker than the benchmark class boat and more expensive. I would be pissed off as a current boat owner if someone came to the intergalactics you guys have with a boat that cost twice mine and I was spanked by someone spending $$ rather than wanting to compete in fair and fun racing. Tell me how the class gains from such a situation?

You want a strong class? you need good racing. To get that you need the boats to be as equal as possible, having such wide freedoms in the rule prevents that from happening unless everyone buys/builds boats to the top level available within the rule.

+1

I don't see the point of discussing that here again. Submit a proposal to the GC, get a vote going to amend the rules.

There is a process to change the rules, and it is not who shout the loudest or the most often.

Its a discussion forum, hence the discussion...

and correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't start this thread..

Just a sugestion (and a reasonable one at that), do what you want, it is your class.

I may come to play soon. Possibly next season.

From Macca above:

I would be pissed off as a current boat owner if someone came to the intergalactics you guys have with a boat that cost twice mine and I was spanked by someone spending $$ rather than wanting to compete in fair and fun racing. Tell me how the class gains from such a situation?

Macca, I don't see this as a realistic threat or a reason to carry weight by bringing the rule up to the heaviest boats. What I do see as a threat to the class is Professional cat racers, non-owners, showing up with free, new, factory boats, brand new sails, brand new everything, and racing against guys who have to work for a living and pay for their own boats.

Perhaps instead of having to show a measurement certificate at the Intergalactics, we should require a Bill of Sale?

How about we go with what some of the mono classes have done and implement an

Owner Driver

rule? Then you wouldn't have to worry about it, would you? You could stay on your free F18 and leave us Clubber hacks alone, right?

Also from Macca's post above:

That is working out fine and the class is growing well by attracting new members...

Wow, how can that be? What? With our open rules, NOBODY should be buying new -heavy- boats, right? Nobody! What are these idiots thinking?? Don't they know their very lives are at risk if we don't raise the min. wt. to what ever MACCA thinks would work best for him?

Macca, why don't you go over to the A class forum and tell them they could build cheaper boats and grow their class if they would just raise their min. wt too?! What fools they are!

Like I said Timbo, You have my vote as class ambassador.

I'm sorry Andrew, but in my world you don't get to vote, because you have not written a $16,000 check for a boat.

This class is made up of guys who are not professionals, guys who have spent their own money, buying thier own boats and maintaining them. You want a vote? Write the check.

I just heard the A cat guys begging to have you go straighten them out, what are you still doing here? They NEED your valuable input!

I don't follow this. Here in the States what is probably the most widely participated form of racing is motocross. Bikes by different manufactures all fit in a seperate classes in what is basically a formula class, yet all the bikes of that class are very different. Even the same model year to year. I don't remember the rules, but they are not that tight, and are pretty basic. Some are better in certain sections, (call it conditions), than others. That difference in performance can be used to ones advantage, but its always at a cost of something else somewhere else on the track. It should never be strictly sailor vs. sailor. The boat side of things constantly improving forces competitiveness between manufacturers, both in price and quality.

BTW I raced MX for years, never once did I have to have my machine measured. To be fair I do know of guys who had to have bikes torn down because they were whoopin' butt, and displacement of the engine was checked to see if they were cheating. A protest of sorts, but if it was found to be legal, the protestor was liable for paying for the new gaskets.

Again I dont believe the argument.
The original group decided the

box

. There was a lot of discussion that went into the material rules.. this is the default..

ok.. with your logic lets get Greg to post his full biz model and profit margins so the other builders can be brought up to speed..
Are you or Greg going to pay Stealth to change their tooling?

You going to pay me to use another method in personal manufacturing? I use the method I use because I find it time effective. So if I go to the methods Greg uses.. I am guessing will add 40 hours to my build.. Want me to work out the bill? I hear Bingle's Aston is for for sale.. Could be the deposit..

Im still waiting on you to tell me the

ultimate

F16 specs including mast..

Macca:

What do you get if Nacra feels comfortable entering the F16 field? Most likely that would not happend until the F16 is global which means being 104 compliant to get the French market. To be 104 compliant means an AHPC weight boat.....Hmmmm.

Nacra would save a lot of time entering the market by acquiring a quality builder like AHPC.

The F16 concept has 2 primary selling points – Light weight and versatility. The heavier small boat concept has been run with very limited success by the big players for a while now.
Where in your twisted logic does having to strap lead to a boat make any racing scenario fairer or better? In a perfect word everything would be equal and then we would not have to race because we would all finish first. If weight is that all important, then all the crews should be the same weight too. And since leverage is tantamount to weight we need to have correctors for height as well. The purchase on the sails needs to adjusted for strength too as then we can all sheet the same. Where do you stop?
AHPC has elected to sell a product laminated overseas and use F18 components. That is their economically driven choice. People have also chosen to purchase the heavier Viper, knowing this full well. To buy into something and then come back and protest the class concept as being somehow flawed after the fact is just wrong in my opinion. This is like buying a cheap house next to an airport and then protesting to have it shut down because you do not like the noise. It may be allowed legally, but that does not make it right.
Macca you take this even a step further as you do not even have an interest in the class from an ownership perspective. You may have a racing background, but many of your other posts definitely lack some basis. The substance, tone (and length) becomes more and more like Wouter each week.

Matt

I smell the makings of a Pay Per View Cage Match here.

Wouter Vs. Jacka! Two men enter, one man leaves!

Thunder dome!

My money's on Wouter, at least he's got some skin in the game...

For the record, I would not support height correctors as suggested in Matt's post above. Believe me, I've tried them all and I found them ineffective.

Seriously - the F16 Class rules are set. The Class may modify them over time but I can almost guarantee that those changes won't begin with non-members' efforts. This platform weight discussion has run it's course... again. Macca, I had the same concerns you do, but I handled the discussion very differently in direct correspondence rather than here on the open forum. The discussion was good and responses were consistent, but came in a very different tone than you're enjoying.

To answer the question first posed in this thread, I believe there is no ill will - Macs simply feels a frustration with a situation in which he has formed a strong opinion.

Timbo, you seem confused. We are not voting here. It's a discussion forum and hence were having a discussion. Nowhere does it state that I have to own a F16 to take part in this discussion.

As a side note, I am a fully paid up member of the F16 class association, So if we were having a vote, I would have a legitimate say.

Karl,

from the interweb:-

FIM Motocross World Championship

FIM Motocross World Championship
Main article: FIM Motocross World Championship
The Grand Prix (or Motocross World Championship) is predominantly held in Europe with some

flyaway

rounds, recently in Chile, South Africa and Japan, but over its history it has visited numerous countries including; Indonesia, Australia and countries on both American continents. There are three classes: MX1, MX2 and MX3 (analogous to

450cc

and

250cc

, and

open

, respectively). Race day consists of two moto's with a duration of 35 minutes plus two laps, while the series is longer, generally incorporating over 16 rounds.
[edit]AMA Motocross Championship
Main article: AMA Motocross Championship
The AMA Motocross Championship (the

outdoor series

) season begins in early May and continues until mid-September, and consists of twelve rounds at twelve major tracks all over the continental United States. There are two classes:[9] the 250 Motocross Class for 0–125 cc 2-stroke or 150–250 cc 4-stroke machines; and the 450 Motocross Class for 150–250 cc 2-stroke or 251–450 cc 4-stroke machines. Each round has two motos of thirty minutes plus two laps.

Seems they have a set of rules designed to make the racing withing each class as equal as possible.

Kris, I have stated this now 4 times in this thread: I am not being paid by any manufacturer and have no contract with any manufacturer!!

Matt,

My

twisted logic

is the same logic that applies to all Olympic and international classes (not all SMOD because they are meant to be equal from factory..) All classes have a system to ensure the boats are as equal as possible so that the results on the water come down to sailors ability and not their ability to spend...

And to imply that AHPC have made a compromise by having their boats made in an offshore facility is just straight out wrong.

Matt,

I think you'll find ive been bitching about this situation for a lot longer than ived owned an F16. At the time you told me to buy a boat and then you'll listen. Didn't seem to work. Why should Macca then?

Im sure Macca doesnt hate F16s at all. I think he really likes the concept.

You guys need to be more flexible. It is a situation of addapt or perish for the f16 class.