I see classes for displacement in that, and nothing more. So if I show up with a old machine you think I'm gonna be competitive? I think not. Yamaha started this year putting the engine in backwards to get the weight more centralized in the chassis of their YZ450F, will it be the new standard? Who knows at this point, but I'd say probably. Cannondale tried it years ago, and it eventually bankrupted the company because they couldn't get the fuel injection figured out.
Its radical design changes like that, or curved boards that get me excited. A Hobie 16 makes want to choke myself. The equipment rules should be short enough that they can be written on the back of a business card. There should be certain boats that run the gambit with new designs that absolutely obsolete the older designs in a few years.
A few millenia of sailing and this is all the further we've made it?
And as far as the arms race? BS? Its racing, get out your check book and do it up. This has to be one of the cheapest forms out there, if Marstrom came out with a 200lb boat that fit in the rest of the F16 rules I'd order one up in no time, $30k or not. You can dump all the money into it you like, but it does come down to tiller time anyway. Am I likely to be the next world champion of anything because I have the best boat? No! But you can't throw the best on a piece of crap and expect them to do well either.
You know guys....we keep having this
discussion
over and over. I can tell you as a 5' 10", 115lb female with a 135lb skipper....I think the weight is perfect! The rules are set for now..all the F16's, no matter the weight, are very competitive against each other. The F16 fills a gap in the racing world and does a fine job at it. Sailing is meant to be fun and enjoyable. Not to sit around arguing over a few kilo's. Obviously we all have been cooped up inside too long and need to get back on the water. Get on a boat and fly!!!
This topic has been rehashed time and time again… over a number of different threads with macca at the root of its chaos. It has never really been about a discussion on F16 minimum weight...It has been about one individual provoking as much aggravation as possible in who ever will run up to the F16 fence...It is like watching a 13 year old juvenile delinquent drags a stick down a junk yard fence aggravating the watch dogs into a frenzy....ending with him walking away with a sadistic smile knowing he accomplishing his goal, destroying the peace. How many times do you have to take the bait before you learn the game?
Some of you must be addicted to the confrontation as you are now actively seeking him out to torment you. What's up with that?
+1 <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />
Some of you must be addicted to the confrontation as you are now actively seeking him out to torment you. What's up with that?
They miss me when i'm not here? <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />
That is the -vote- I was refering to, Jacka, you brought it up. But you did bring up a good point, simply paying a $25 fee, in my opinion, should NOT give anyone the
right
to vote on any class's rules. So I'm thinking maybe I should put forth a motion to the GC, that if you don't actually -own- a F16, for only $25 you can be an
associate member
but with no voting rights.
I think only actual boat -owners- should be allowed a vote. Otherwise it would be very cheap and easy for a producer to enroll his employees, at only $25 each, and throw a vote to favor that producer's products, yes?
This class is made up of guys who are not professionals, guys who have spent their own money, buying thier own boats and maintaining them. You want a vote? Write the check.
Timbo, you seem confused. We are not voting here. It's a discussion forum and hence were having a discussion. Nowhere does it state that I have to own a F16 to take part in this discussion.
As a side note, I am a fully paid up member of the F16 class association, So if we were having a vote, I would have a legitimate say.
I don't think it's me who's confused here Jacka...Get a job, buy a boat, then you can vote.
This class is made up of guys who are not professionals, guys who have spent their own money, buying thier own boats and maintaining them. You want a vote? Write the check.
Timbo, you seem confused. We are not voting here. It's a discussion forum and hence were having a discussion. Nowhere does it state that I have to own a F16 to take part in this discussion.
As a side note, I am a fully paid up member of the F16 class association, So if we were having a vote, I would have a legitimate say.
I don't think it's me who's confused here Jacka...Get a job, buy a boat, then you can vote.
Timbo, Since you have degenerated to the juvenile level of name calling, this will be my last response to you:
I have a job that I enjoy very much, perhaps you are jealous??
I own several boats, just not an F16 at the moment, but you do make a compelling argument to invest in such a welcoming class..
You are the one who started flining the poo at the F16's.
And yeah, you nailed it, just like always Ace.
I am jealous, I really wish I were you, but only if you had to be me for a week.
Just go and buy moths. No minimum weight to worry about and they go faster.
First off Sorry no desire to offend or detract from the accomplishments and innovations produced by AHPC. I truly believe that their contribution has been understated! The Taipan should be inducted into the hall of fame.
Yes and I suspect I'm not the only one disappointed in the direction AHPC has taken. Some view it as a sell out and don't see any significant savings (at retail level anyway) to warrant moving production overseas. Of course I understand why you say the VIPER is such a better F16 than the Tiapan. No argument but it's also a hell of a lot heavier! Which is exactly my point. With exception to the Taipan (are they still in production??) they do not
manufacture
light weight boats. That is due only to
love of the sport
no doubt. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
As for a all Carbon Viper, other then Mecca I don't believe anyone would be stupid enough to build one. Mecca on the other hand has proven his credibility by dropping at least 30K into modifying a Taipan 5.7 (the hulls apparently produced from the same molds that were destroyed by AHPC to make room for the heavier (much faster) Capricorn). And now he wants to raise the weights of the F16 class?? Yeah OK Mecca whatever you say... <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
As for all the talk of an all carbon F16 but that is a complete BS propaganda too in my opinion. Whom could they get to build it for them and at what price? And who's going to be stupid enough to build one out of carbon (besides Mecca) when they could just as easily build to minimum weight using a glass and Kevlar combination as Boyer developed for the Taipan?..<img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> Come on these are not Acats at 70kgs! Pure propaganda.... <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />
mediocrity
as you assert, but instead a design and build decision balanced between cost and benefit - which is a positive feature of the class.
While Boyer has moved on to other projects that hold his interest, I can say there is absolutely zero difference in build quality between the Capricorn I had with Boyer's name on it and the 2009 boat I have that doesn't. Jim is amazingly talented. It is legitimate to say so. But you are simply wrong in your assertion that Jim's amicable departure has changed how AHPC makes boats or resulted in dropping the A-cat from their line-up because they are incapable of making one.
You need to get you facts straight!!! We are 100% capable of producing a fully carbon F16 or an A class. I don't know who you are or how you think you are qualified to comment on our abilities. By your
proof in the pudding
comment we could deduce that we are unable to produce anything we don't already.
DO NOT make it appear we pushed the Tiapan association to Up the Weights. We stated that only a few boats are currently under weight and that the new boats wouldn't be lighter, and as Dazz stated the association voted in it. We DO NOT run the association.
Jim was NOT replaced.... he decided it was his time to engage in other projects. That is not the
political line
that is FACT. He left and the Hull production has now been moved off shore. We are producing more boats that we have every done before. Jim was a master boat builder but he did not have the capability to keep up with what we are producing now. I have all the official numbers to back this up.
As for the quality??? You better be careful otherwise somebody might mistake you for someone who knows what they are talking about. The quality now is as good as ever, and the consistency and accuracy is superb.
To finish; Building a Viper with Taipan technology... do you build boats??? Even design them???? Do you want to know why the VIPER is such a better F16 than the Tiapan?? It is hull Volume and it is the platform stiffness. Oh look these add weight... take them out to save weight and you end up back at the Taipan.
You clearly have a problem with the direction that AHPC has gone, I find this purely offensive because Greg Goodall does what he does out of the love of the sport. He has always been building and designing boats in the interest of the customers.
If you have an outstanding issue with AHPC please E-mail me and I will discuss it with you.
Thank you
Brett GOODALL
I'm sorry you feel this way. You would be paying more for your boat and waiting longer for it if production was still here in Aus. We where proactive enough to shift our operations before this became a major concern to our customers.
We still produce the Taipan.
Yes and I suspect I'm not the only one disappointed in the direction AHPC has taken. Some view it as a sell out and don't see any significant savings (at retail level anyway) to warrant moving production overseas. Of course I understand why you say the VIPER is such a better F16 than the Tiapan. No argument but it's also a hell of a lot heavier! Which is exactly my point. With exception to the Taipan (are they still in production??) they do not
manufacture
light weight boats. That is due only to
love of the sport
no doubt. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
As for a all Carbon Viper, other then Mecca I don't believe anyone would be stupid enough to build one. Mecca on the other hand has proven his credibility by dropping at least 30K into modifying a Taipan 5.7 (the hulls apparently produced from the same molds that were destroyed by AHPC to make room for the heavier (much faster) Capricorn). And now he wants to raise the weights of the F16 class?? Yeah OK Mecca whatever you say... <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" /> <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />
I think you will find that the hulls of the Viper and Taipan are around the same weight per Sqm, Its just that the surface area of the Viper is much larger and as such the hull weight is higher.
The platform is much stiffer = faster boat, via the use of larger section beams. If you used the Taipan beams on the Viper you would have a very soft boat torsionally. Even the rear beam on the Taipan was too small even before you loaded it up with a kite etc. I think the rear beam from the Taipan was originally paper tiger beam!
As a previous owner of a Taipan, I have a soft spot for the boat and recently I sailed one in Singapore set up in F16 guise. I then jumped on a Viper and was amazed at how much progression has been made between the two boats. The Taipan is a great little boat, but its just that: a little boat. The Viper is very well suited to the task of carrying the crew weight and a kite.
I have never said that I would buy a carbon Viper, Karl has stated in this thread that if someone made an all carbon F16 even it cost 30k he would buy one today. There's an opportunity for one of you class builders! Customer waiting with cash in hand!
Buccaneer, I am not sure how you accessed my spreadsheet with all my Taipan 5.7 build expenses itemised, but you must have the wrong copy because it cost a mere fraction of what you claim. I am happy to state that the Hulls, foils and mast (carbon) all cost less than $2,500 AUD delivered to my house. You can work out the rest pretty easy:- set of sails from industry friend, some carbon tubes from sponsor, trampoline from same friend who build sails and some assorted fittings compiled from more than a decade of Tornado sailing.
Not so expensive really. Even the trailer, full tilting with sailbox was purchased for $500 AUD.
So, not sure where the 30k went....
The bonus is that I have a great fun boat to play on whenever I get a break in my schedule and Greg (co-owner) and I would have to say that we have enjoyed that project as much off the water (in the build and modification stages)as we have actually sailing it.
I saw a new Taipan 4.9 with its owner at Port Melb on the weekend. Bloody good looking boat. Still a lot of very keen 4.9 sailors around. Hard to find a second hand boat unless people are upgrading.
Some of you must be addicted to the confrontation as you are now actively seeking him out to torment you. What's up with that?
Now that is funny. You have been caught with the stick Macca 😛
Just a neutral observation, from a non-F16 sailor.
I think Macca has presented a valid viewpoint, this does not mean you must agree with him.
The way I see it, the overweight Viper (by 23kg?) seems to be right up there with the other designs, first three places at a recent event? Either weight is of no importance in sailing, which I doubt, or the Viper`s hull shape and configuration has allowed it to sail beyond it`s on-paper capability (would be interesting to calculate it`s SCHRS number on it`s own weight - Blades etc should give it time). A logical outlook on this (if one exists among class members) is that they got the design right and at this point have a superior design to anything they are competing with, but the extra weight they carry makes them seem to be not as superior as they really are.
I take it AHPC have geared the manufacturing technique to allow the boat to be cost effective so it will sell. Where they build it is of no importance, they COULD change the layup and build an all-carbon autoclaved boat with the best carbon mast available, and triple the price, which would lower their customer base. I suspect if they did this and came in at 100kg, and added lead where it fits best, they would be much faster than they already are. I wonder if then all the F16 members would hold onto their opinions so steadfastly. I`m also quite amazed at some folks outlook - that they are
disappointed
at the route AHPC went with the Viper. If a manufacturer wants to build a COMPLIANT boat that has more weight by choice, and is equally fast as the lightest boats, it is their choice. Whether you buy one or not is yours. The only thing I think you could be disappointed about is that some of your preconceived ideas may be wrong, ie that it SHOULD be slower than your boat.
I`m not suggesting you listen to Macca and raise the minimum weight, but I think a more open-minded outlook might be required. Based on his persistence with regard to the matter I can only believe he has a vested interest in getting the class rules amended to favour the boat he will soon be sailing.. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
We have two AHCP Taipans at my club less than 12 months old. Afaik they are both a couple of kg's under. AHPC have been building their hulls and foils off shore for quite a while now.
As for all the talk of an all carbon F16 but that is a complete BS propaganda too in my opinion. Whom could they get to build it for them and at what price? And who's going to be stupid enough to build one out of carbon (besides Mecca) when they could just as easily build to minimum weight using a glass and Kevlar combination as Boyer developed for the Taipan?..<img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" /> Come on these are not Acats at 70kgs! Pure propaganda.... <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />
I think the problem with F16 is one day it will be the ultimate victim of it's own success. As the class grows and the prestige of winning a worlds grows, eventually somebody will pour enough money into a boat that will blow every other design out of the water.
The great thing is that the class has the opportunity to minimize this risk now. Putting in some simple controls and grandfathering existing designs will go a long way to prevent such a situation arising and should take action quickly.
This class has some magnificent strengths compared to it's primary competitors but to not recognize their own strengths and learning from them is a recipe for disaster.
Cheers,
Michael
friend
is just another in a long line of detractors who see the F16 as a threat to their own favorite platform.
Engaging him just encourages him.
Stop talking to him.
The thread subject is taking a crack at the guy - why do so many find it a surprise he defends himself???
Michael
Not so expensive really.
So is Carbon expensive or not; you KEEP stating that carbon drives up the cost of boats and then state you got Carbon stuff including a MAST (that you constantly state is expensive) for Aus 2500....
So is Carbon expensive or not?
Expensive if you pay retail. Luckily I have long and commercially viable relationships with many suppliers and as such I was able to leverage those relationships to build my fun boat for a very low cost.
I don't think its even possible to debate whether Carbon is more expensive than alloy. A 5 year old can look at the price lists and give you the correct answer.
I can only believe he has a vested interest in getting the class rules amended to favour the boat he will soon be sailing.. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />
I think you have hit the nail..
With the Vipers speed I would suggest the speed has no small tribute to the crews.
one of the strengths and reasons the class was founded was the light weight..
Whenever any manufacturer brings in a bunch of Pro sailors and gives them a new, free ride, the Pro's always win, that's why they are Pros.
The Pro's however do not spend money or time developing the class, they are on to the 'next big thing' which right now, in the cat world, I guess, is the F16's.
Some of the monohull classes have figured out this is not necessarily a good thing for overall class development, it just pissses off the real class members who have devoted a lot of time and money to the class, only to get butt-whipped by some pro on a free new boat, which is why some classes have gone to
Owner Driver
rules. It might be time to consider doing the same in our class.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-pro. Everything I know about cat racing I've picked up from
pro's
at one regatta or another, and I always like it when they show up and teach us how to go faster.
What bothers me is when a
Pro
shows up and tells a class what their rules should be, with zero time or money invested in the class, and then all the real owners have to...carry weight?? YGTBSM!
You don't see any of the other Pro's who have raced the F16's on here telling us how to run our class, do you?
Makes me wonder what the real motivation is for Macca and who he's really working for. Or is he looking for
work
ie. a free ride, he wants to be the
F16 World Champion
(BFD) but he's worried some 10kg. -lighter- F16 is going to stomp him on his factory sponsored free Viper or Hobie or Nacra F16?
Macca, the class rules are set, you can play by our rules or go away and sail something else, our loss...?
I agree with one of the Pros who, when asked about the weight issue after the GC, said,
It's a development class, let it develop.
Raising the weight doesn't encourage better building for a lighter boat, it only dumbs it down. Cheaper? Perhaps, but
better
?
I haven't looked. How are the ordinary mortals doing in the Taipn v Blade v Falcon v Viper challenge? Any meaningful trends starting to show up? Is there enough data to draw any meaningful assumptions?
WOUT! Where are you buddy?
Wow! This thread is turning into an epic.
Andrew, from the brief chat that we had at Carnac, I discern you to be basically a nice guy who likes his sailing. You also (occasionally) seem to make a valid point or two. As you've pointed out, this forum is a discussion board and some of the discussion in this thread is genuinely interesting - I won't go into what the rest of it is - so discuss away but please don't expect the class rules to change in favour of any particular builder anytime soon.
Expensive if you pay retail. Luckily I have long and commercially viable relationships with many suppliers and as such I was able to leverage those relationships to build my fun boat for a very low cost.
So what you are selling in this story is by virtue of your “charismatic personality” you have major carbon fiber manufactures giving you better prices for carbon cloth for your boat than they are willing to give a viable boat manufacture with global sales capability?...What boat manufacture buys materials for retail? And why do you always have to go to the most expensive and extreme building technique for your examples? Autoclave and pre-preg.
What about John Lindahl building three A Cats...LR2 and LR3, their third boat weighing in at 15 lbs underweight with just hand layup carbon cloth, not even vacuum bagged, let alone pre-preg...His son sailed it to the top of a competitive A-class fleet in Florida a few months ago.
Your tactics are typical of our world today in that facts mean nothing to you...You play on the concept that if you consistently tell the same exaggerated falsehoods over and over again, after a while you will get weak minded people to believe it. The sad part of it all is how effective that technique is on the large population of those who can’t be bothered to think for themselves.
The great thing is that the class has the opportunity to minimize this risk now. Putting in some simple controls and grandfathering existing designs will go a long way to prevent such a situation arising and should take action quickly.
This class has some magnificent strengths compared to it's primary competitors but to not recognize their own strengths and learning from them is a recipe for disaster.
Cheers,
Michael
The F16 class appears to be doing fine with quite a bit of growth Worldwide. AHPC while they have an active marketing program and are placing the best teams on their boats as part of that plan, are not the only players. Matt M, while he is separated from Vectorworks, with the combination of Blades and Falcons is up around 70+ boat last I heard. FCA, Stealth etc are out there and a number of new models are being introduced and are being or going to be built here shortly.
1 kilo of carbon weighs the same as 1 kilo of glass. All the advanced processes and materials in the world will not build an F16 less than 107 kg (2 up) as that is the class min. Carbon sticks are in service and with the min tip weight have not proven to be any game changer. This fear of an unlimited million dollar craft destroying the class is a bit far fetched.
In the case of macca, this is either the pathetic fence banging exercise, or he has motivation for a purpose, whether friendship or for financial gain to continually bring up the same rehashed subject.
AHPC has elected, for their own reasons, to build a boat that is heavy. At this time both the class and the Viper are gaining from each other. AHPC though is also pushing the 104 for their boat along with the F16. The Viper is being promoted and provided to the best teams as part of their marketing plan. B2, Robbie Daniels, etc. The other brands are being raced (if raced at all) by weekenders and there is not any program out there promoting any of the other models per say.
If 104 gets is act organized and takes off then the Viper may fit in. If 104 continues to flounder and F16 takes off as a racing class eventually better teams will be riding other makes and maybe macca’s continued harping about saving the class from some imaginary event is really about saving the Viper from obsolescence?
The other brands are being raced (if raced at all) by weekenders and there is not any program out there promoting any of the other models per say.
A number of the weekenders have begun attending coaching camps and I plan to join them. As time and money are limited I will begin dropping the older, familiar regattas in favor of those that have coaching opportunities associated with them.
I agree with Mini, so maybe we need a
Pro
division and a
weekender
division, or a Pro-Am regatta, like in golf?
Thats it timbo. Bust the class up into smaller and smaller divisions until you win something. Forget about trying to learn something from people like Macca. NOT!
We get some sensible veiwpoints from some unbiased outsiders but just ignore them and then its straight back into Macca and Viper bashing from the same clowns. Pathetic.