Why does Macca hate F16s?

after 18 hours awake my crapo typing slips more and more and more typos slip in..

As for advice.. I have well meaning advice from qualified experienced people that was completely wrong. The reasons behind the current rules do not seem to be understood

We wouldn't be interested in a lighter die, we already have a dozen light masts at the factory. Old a cat sections. A tiny bit smaller but about 3kg lighter.

We are happy to clear these to anyone, anywhere in the world.

Macca has a marketing degree???

And no-one else of a different opinion has ?

Wouter

At least you are getting near the point. Most of us consider his advice UNwise.

I am a weekend sailor, albeit, not a very good one. I bought my Blade because it was the LIGHTEST , fastest, spinnaker boat I could buy and by class rule, could race it single handed. I do not wish to lug more weight through the sand or even tow it behind my car.

The vast majority of us want to keep the boats as light as possible. Macca is in the minority, his arguments are not persuasive but he persists in beating this dead horse in the faint hope it will come back to life. From where I stand, he has demonstrated far greater skills at sailing than marketing.

Macca has a big degree of frustration with this group!

But I think I have worked it out: The F16 class isn't about sailing at all... Its about creating a mystical world where all sorts of different boats that comply in some way to a very broad rule can start a race on the one start line and then the results can be attributed to a variety of different factors but none of which are allowed to be that the boats are not equal.

You live in a world where carbon masts and alloy masts can compete on equal terms, where boats 25kg apart are equal and one where single handed and double handed boats perform the same. Where the production costs to build a boat to fully utilise the freedoms offered in the rule would extend well above that of an A Class.

In short you are dreaming! Whilst you do this, the rest of us will get out there and go sailing (its a sport, on the water and we all compete on equal terms, try it some day!)

The results are attributable to a single factor, skill! My lighter weight Blade does not allow me to beat Robbie Daniel on his

heavy

Viper.

There does seem to be an advantage to sailing 1-up in around 6-8 knots; that advantage seems to disappear when the wind is up to 10 knots. Other than that, the F16 box rule, as it stands today, provides very close competition for a variety of boats.

The rule does what it was intended to do. F16 is not smod!

In short you are dreaming! Whilst you do this, the rest of us will get out there and go sailing (its a sport, on the water and we all compete on equal terms, try it some day!)

What

equal terms

are you talking about Macca? Are you now going to get a real job in marketing, and sit in some cubicle for 5 days a week, then hook up YOUR boat, the one you paid $16,000+ for, then take it to the water to race against the rest of us weekend clubber hacks? Are you going to become one of us?

OR, are you going to spend several days racing someone else's boats, (VX40's, etc.) then have a brand new F16 or F18 or...? ride delivered to the regatta, jump on that brand new boat, with the latest equipment and sails, and race against us weekend clubber hacks, kick all of our butts, and claim the class needs to raise the minimum wt. because
-THAT's- what made you so much faster?

It's the sailor that wins the races. The small difference in total wt. really has very little to do with it, hell my wt. varies by about the same amount as all these boats depending on how much pizza and beer I had last night, and when I took my last dump!

BTW, I recommend you take the dump -before- you put on the drysuit...

I hate when <img src="<>/blush.gif" alt="blush" title="blush" height="15" width="15" />. . .nevermind.

And the A-class, F18 class and other formula based sport classes in sailing like the Promo's and Class-5's landyachts are different in this respect ?

I mean, I can still enter a F18 worlds with a 1997 Nacra inter18 fitted with dacron sails or a pinhead Hobie Tiger and I don't see you argue that those boats are perfectly equal in performance to the say the C2, wildcat or infusion.

The fact that these boats comply to the class rules (F18 in this case) doesn't mean that they are guaranteed to be equal to all other makes, both old and new. That is not the way formula rule work.

The formula class rules only provide a cap (upper boundary) to the best performance that can be had and indeed experience and succes in both the F18 class, A-cat class and now the F16 class proof that this is beyond any doubt a realistic concept. The F18 class may needs more rules then the F16 class to achieve that, whereas the A-cat class gets by with less rules then the F16 class. Both are currently more expensive with regard to new boats then the F16 class. Having said that, all three setups have been proven to work well and do indeed provide lots of sailing enjoyment to large groups of sailors.

Against these facts the opinions of a single sailor (with or without a marketing degree) are judged to be irrelevant.

You can preach that the sky is falling till you are blue in the face, but you won't be believed until your predictions are supported by facts (not by repeated claims).

I'm sorry Macca, that is just the way it is.

Wouter

well frustration goes both ways mate..
Maybe you should only sail a mythical SMOD which has absolute quality control. Evel AHPC or Bethwaite cant guarantee their rigs are exactly the same when they leave the factory.. Never the less its what you expect

what you are really saying is..
make weight equal to Vipers.. Because its what you think is acceptable.. Which would mean our rating will have to change.

ban all carbon .. So ban stealths or grandfather them as is.. then what if Pearce at Stealth marine wants to update the design?
Make all other designs carry weight..
split class into those who wish to solo and those who sail two up. Because obviously one will naturally be quicker. You suggesting two starts?

I give you some dues Macca, for a person who has no real affiliation to a class, doesn't own a class legal boat, doesn't even sail in class regattas, you can still bang on and on and on about the one subject, year after year, getting absolutely no where and then you come up with the statement above.

Gosh that really is news to all of us, ever thought what the majority of class members think of your efforts so far ?

I'm a cabinetmaker. Been doing it quite a while. Even own my own company. When I go on a woodworking forum made up of mostly hobbiest's, they all seem like a pack of idiots. Is this a similar case? Are we a pack of idiots to you?

Careful now, slippery slope. <img src="<>/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek" height="15" width="15" />

Hey! This is serious stuff! No sense of humor allowed. <img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" />

I take offense to that statement, and so does Mr. IKEA.

I have never stated that SMOD is the answer, you just need a set of rules that promote fair racing between boats that are as equal as possible. The current situation does not allow for that.

Lets examine that for a moment: The Viper is the best performing boat at the moment, yet its heavier... Now if you run the Viper on Texel rating it comes in at 104, so all the other F16's built to the min weight have to give 3 points to the Viper? and they are behind it on the water anyhow!!

Just ban Carbon in hulls,masts, beams, booms, poles etc. You still need it in the foils. Grandfathering the boats already built is a suitable way to keep those owners engaged and I am sure that the builders that currently offer Carbon masts etc will be ok with it.. their margins will only increase...

Macca.... <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

A = Australian
H = Heavy
P = Performance
C = Catamarans

Sorry could not resist... <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" />

A = Asia
H = Heavy
P = Performance
C = Catamarans

Sorry, one quick final edit, hehe. Especially since they don't build the boats in Australia anymore...

The HULLS are made in Asia, The Masts are made in US.... Some of the fittings are made in UK, and some others in Italy.....

and of course, the sails, rigging, other fittings, fitout etc etc are done in Australia.

Maybe they should call themselves IHPC.... I = International

So if I want to build a boat I cant..

AHPC made a decision to build the boat they did.. No one forced them.. No one gave a blanket ruling saying you must do.. They chose so now you make others jump to their business decisions.. Again I suggest you get AHPC to disclose all business planning, hull profile details so the other builders can duplicate their business model exactly.. not 99% 100%..

Now if AHPC does they are stupid and I dont think Greg is..

So they leaves the F16 as a class in a choice.. become 104 where a 19 footer is equal to a 15 footer or remain as formula class inside a semi open box rule..

this should stop right now..

You have made some excellent points above and the statement that the class is targeted at

weekend warriors

is very important.

For me the weekend warrior is the perfect market (I consider myself one). With this in mind surely the rule set should reflect and encourage boats that support their audience?

To me as an interested observer from the peanut gallery, the class is trying to serve 2 masters. It is trying to be a virtual anything goes development class that is viewed at the forefront of technology and sell that concept to the average guy who wants to go for a yacht on Saturday with the family. Putting my marketing hat on, that will be a very hard ask in the longer term. As a boat buyer, the underlying perception (right or wrong) with

High Tech

, Carbon masts/beams and the like =

EXPENSIVE

which could turn an otherwise sure sale into one that got away.

I understand your point about self regulation in your point about M20's however the pessimist in me says these materials when used as part of a boat design that is soundly designed and fully developed (ie somebody spends a lot of money on it) will clean up. Right now I don't think (with all due respect) the prestige is high enough in winning a F16 Global Challenge to warrant such an investment. Over time as the class builds and winning such an event means something significant (in a broader sense) it is inevitable that someone(s) will invest the money. Then there is a problem as the class becomes out of reach of it's

weekend warrior

roots and becomes the latest gun class for a few years or so till the next one comes along.

I think it should be considered by the executive committee at the very least.

Tiger Mike

I just wish to add that the F16 class acts (is intended to act) as a feeder to both the F18 class and the A-cat class.

We are halfway between a very tightly controlled (overweight) formula class and a rather loosely controlled (flyweight) development formula class.

Over time the F18 class increasingly allowed for the use of carbon in their components; otherwise the high aspect daggerboards could not be made stiff enough. The F16 class simply avoided that by not regulating on any material choices at all. When we wrote the class rules, we already saw the writing on the wall. Same with the decision to not copy the weight equalisation system of he F18's (two different size jibs and spinnakers). Rather be right straight away then have to increasingly open up the class rules by repeated votes.

But if a customer is not willing to lay down 19800 USD (18.000 Euro with taxes) for a lightweight carbon masted Falcon F16 but is willing to pay 19.815 Euro with taxes for an heavy alu masted Hobie Wildcat F18 then I guess the F16 class is just not the right class for him.

As we are saying over and over again. F16's still have considerable leeway with it comes down to purchase costs even when fitted with carbon upgrades (about 2000 Euro leeway). At some point we also have to accept that catamaran sailing is not an inexpensive sport and the average joe will never take to it. In short, the pricing of F16's is right for the target groups.

Hell, even the most basic Hobie 16 costs 10.585 Euro's already (more with various upgrades like coloured sails). A bare Strict One-Design like the (140 kg) FX-one is already 14.000 Euro without a jib kit, spi kit, selftacker kit, carbon rudder upgrades, Pentex sails upgrade, etc. I figure an alu masted (105 kg) Falcon can be had for as little as 12.500 Euro when the same stuff is removed (fully fitted for 2-up = 15.000 Euro/111 kg). Other F16 makes like the Stealth are even cheaper !

http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf

http://www.proust-sailing.com/hobie-polyester-55/

Really people, the facts are staring us in the face and really do show a very positive outlook for the F16's as it is setup now. If there is one thing I learned while racing catamarans then it must be :

When you are ahead, stop fiddling about with the trim

Wouter

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Macca.... <img src="<>/cool.gif" alt="cool" title="cool" height="15" width="15" />

Ha Ha HA Ha Ha Ha Ha........Love your work Mr Bucaneer.

10 out of 10.

Ah........Ha HA HA Ha AH Ah Aha ahha aha ah uuughhhh.......got sticthes now from laughing so hard.

Ahhhh.....now I cant breath......ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ... your the man.....you guys crack me up.

Lets get one thing perfectly straight.

The Vipers did very well at the last Global Challenge (2009), but were beaten at earlier GC's even when sailed by the likes of Greg himself. For example both the VWM Blade and Aussie Blade finished ahead in 2007 and regular weekend crews are properly mixed up with non-viper weekend crews in other events.

Winning one single F16 event when having participated in all GC's over the last 3 years is not enough basis to warrant the claim that the Viper is the best performing boat at the moment. Both the Stealth design and Blade won earlier versions of the event and can rightfully lay identical claims to that title.

Also the F16's are rated under Texel as 102 (when in 2-up mode as indeed the 104 Viper is); the difference is therefor only 2 points ! OR if you will 72 seconds per hour of bouy racing.

The 101 rating belongs to a 1-up F16's ONLY; as indeed the 1-up Viper will be rated faster then the 104 2-up Viper.

Be smart Macca and do some research before you spout off inaccuracies and plain non-sense on the public airwaves.

Wouter

Only because you are comparing top sailors equiped with 20 years of rig development from the Tiapan era to club sailors on new designs.

The Viper is the quickest boat, here is a prediction for you all: The Viper will win its class at Carnac, Texel, the F16 thingy at lake Como and the intergalactic thing if it happens.

Why am I so sure? Because it is a faster boat..!!

And Wouter, I have not stated a falsehood: in F16 class racing you all run the boats off the same handicap, yet in Texel rating its done differently. So a one up F16 V's a 2 up Viper has a 3 point advantage.

Regardless of history Its still quicker now..