Why does Macca hate F16s?

*laughing* yep the Viper should win.. Why? because the Vipers will have the B2

top gun

teams on them!!
If they don't beat the Blade/Falcons/Stealths then

B2

should be hung drawn and quartered by Greg for incompetency and stupidity.

I'm confident those two aren't incompetent and stupid!! After all they did beat you on the Ts on a regular basis.. So they will have a good combo sailing on

their team

..

So lets put the competition into perspective..
The first group of say 4

club only

racers.. Using a non superwing/Goodall sail rig.. This should sort out the

faster

hull discussion..

Macca,

Are you trying to be stupid or what ?

If you can't even look up the CORRECT Texel ratings or perform secondary grade arithmatic (104 - 102 = a 2 point difference) then you are only making a fool of yourself and dragging other well intending and unrelated parties like the AHPC company and Viper design down with it.

Also I didn't know we had arranged for a F16 class at Carnac this year and the fact that Brouwer is an Olympic medalist whereas people such as I are just, well, weekend warriors has absolutely nothing to do with us losing a direct comparison.

Afterall we also know the Tiger is a much better design then whatever F18 you are/were sailing as the Tigers have always beaten you over the years, right ? Right !

But you are correct about the following :

Indeed, you have stated MANY FALSEHOODS.

Good day to you,

Wouter

Andrew,

Carolijn Brouwer(who will be sailing the Viper at the events you mention) (Olympic campaigner) should indeed win all the events you mention. Even better, she shouldn't even loose one single race, with here skills compared to the other teams. Don't understand me wrong, I'm happy to have her and the other pro Viper sailors on board as they are the ones you learn the most from and they are the ones with the abilities to sail the F16 in the picture.

Well I didn't tell anything new here, but it fits perfectly within this entire thread as I haven't read anything new in the last 25 pages....

Buy a Falcon! The fastest F16 in Belgium > check the race results!

If some of you muppets put as much effort into sailing as you do dribbiling *, you might be able to take a few races off carolijn. When is this we only got beaten because we can't sail * gunna stop!

Good point Aido. Matty Homan was able to do it in the NSW Taipan States a few weeks ago. 1st Matt Homan with Red Dog crew, 2nd Slater with Bundock crew, third Brouwer with Peachy crew. No photos but I was on the same course in the A States.

******** to say that it is only the Viper that makes her fast!

I can't wait to sail Carnac and the Europeans as I really want to see how fast she is on the Viper and I hope there will be as much F16 as possible, whatever the brand.

Enjoy this thread.

The Raptor will also be at Carnac, so another F16 model will be there.

I'm glad you don't expect to much.. So if the Viper wins its the sailors & if the Viper loses its the boat.. sounds fair?. We should take it as a complement but you cant have it both ways.. I hope we will win some and I'm sure we will loose some.

Maybe you should ask the question why we have chosen the Viper? could we have chosen any F16?

I would like to see this forum promote F16 as at the moment it does not. There are a lot of good ideas on this forum but they get shut down due to personalities.

Questions:
Why has F16 not boomed in Europe?
Why has F18? I don't believe they compete against each other for sailors but should complement each other.

The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.
Do you want manufactures involved?
Do you want full development?
Do you want to limit costs?
Who makes these decisions?

Looking forward to constructive brain storming..

Bundy (in Europe now)
www.2bsailing.eu

Wouter,

one up f16 rating = 101
two up viper rating = 104

my simple mathematic skills give me a 3 point difference... Correct me if I have made a miscalculation.

Because the European F16 manufacturers are confidential and do not manufacture enough boats. If you want a Stealth, you will wait for it for a god 5-6 months for example. Imports have been scarce because of costs of importing a small number of boats.

I'm thrilled AHPC decided to push the Viper in Europe, Francis success in France last year shows that there is a market and that with a minimum of marketing boats could sell.

Please define

professional

?

Yes to get the big manufacturers involved. The more the merrier.

Yes to full development. Whoever is paying for it will pull the class forward. Yes it will make my sails, mast and everything obsolete. But guess what: they already are <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Cost limitation will autoregulate due to the class rules. You can't build a boat lighter than the rule, or longer, or with foils. If someone is crazy enough to build a all carbon monster, with sails in unobtanium, heck that's fine with me. But if it measure, the performance gain will be minuscule compared to the performance gain of putting a Bundy on it rather than me <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Those kind of decisions are made by the class members, by voting on the rules. I think the rules as they are are fine, I see no reason to change them. Some of it needs a little clarification, or a slight rewrite. But any change to any box rule parameter would be a mistake in my opinion.

Now AHPC has also a decision to make as well: Do they really want to push a F16 class or do they one to push some sort of one design Viper/104 kind of beast?

Macca,

Why don't you use the SCHRS ratings system ?

The rating differences between singlehanded boats (1-up) and doublehanded boats (2-up) is even larger there !

(see my other posts for a more detailed reply to your repeated inaccuracies)

Wouter

[quote=Bundy. . .
The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.
Do you want manufactures involved?
Do you want full development?
Do you want to limit costs?
Who makes these decisions?

Looking forward to constructive brain storming..

Bundy (in Europe now)
www.2bsailing.eu

I disagree on one point. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> The class is already under pressure to become more professional!

I can't speak to Europe but in the U.S. we are training measurer's and working towards certification of our fleet. A small group of us were at a seminar yesterday with an ISAF certified measurer. Our immediate aim is to certify boats for the upcoming Nationals in April. As we are starting from scratch, I expect this first exercise to have some rough edges, but we will do the best we can with the people and experience available.

This effort is absolutely in response to the criticism from other sailors, inside and outside the class, that we aren't serious minded. We are serious and intend to demonstrate the point.

In answer to the remainder of your post: I think having manufacturers involved is essential to strike some sort of balance among the other factors you've mentioned and I favor a strong class association as the final decision maker.

Imo, it would be of little value to produce a cutting edge product that no one could afford, for sale to the general public. However, it might be worth noting that auto racing permits and encourages factory prototypes. That might apply to our situation. As a

factory prototype

I'd say (just about)anything goes.

I have to add that I don't think we can have this discussion on an open forum and would very much like to see it (the discussion) restricted to boat owners.

No that doesn't sound fair indeed and that is actually a very good point. Especially when the names are reversed.

When (amateur husband/wife) team McDonald made an impression in the last day of the GC2009 (two 2nd's and a 1st place) then it was because of the lighter winds and when they did less so in the earlier days it was because the Viper is a better design alround (not because team McD. scored 5 dns's due to part issues as they also scored several 4th, 5th and 6th places in the rough stuff).

This sword cuts both way apparently.

I for one see as good as all the F16 members (and the class) argue that under the formula rules (be it F18 or F16) it is ALWAYS the crew that makes the real difference. Whether the result is good or bad. Also no-one here really believes that 20 kg is enough of a factor to differentiate between (weekend warrior) crews when compared to the much larger differences caused by varying crew skills (many minutes per race) and indeed crew weights. Rating systems like Texel seem to agree as they rate the heavier designs (incl. my own homebuild) only about a minute slower per hour. Largely irrelevant when the fleet also needs 10-15 minutes to finish over a course of 60 min. duration. Interestingly enough, beafy Viper CREWS did very well at the GC2009 too. If a 40+ kg difference between Viper crews is of no large consequence then why should a much smaller weight difference (20 kg) between different F16 boats be ?

I actually find that a few well known posters (several of them not even F16 owners/sailors) repeatedly go against this realistic and well balanced stance and argue in favour of the Viper design when its CREWS win and against the other makes when THEIR crews loose. Opposite results are regulary ignored or explained away (GC2009, GC2007 and GC2008 come to mind) and indeed conflicts between their own arguments (inconsistantcy) are left unexamined.

I also find that neither AHPC, Daniel, Brett or anyone else officially linked to the Viper F16 design is party to that. Yet, I also don't see them actively combatting such distractions either.

I fear this does allow for the larger public to throw the official parties on the same heap as the distractors; which is unfair too, but also understandable. Afterall, cui bono ?

A sad situation that I feel is best correct by all involved.

The F16 class has a bright future whereas alternatives are indeed struggling (F104, FX-one, iCat, Inter 17, M18, Javelin 16, etc). We either all make this work or hope that a better alternative somehow establishes itself after we have allowed the truly viable F16 class to be killed off for no good reason. I seriously doubt whether the latter option has any merit. I was closely involved in the creation and initial growth of the F16 class and understand how hard it is to get something like this off the ground. There may well not be an (better) alternative for many decades to come.

Therefor I invite every (official) party to make a stand in favour of the F16 class as indeed mr. Bundock does in his posting.

Wouter

Darren,

In this seperate post I wish to give some of my view to the points you raise.

>>>Why has F16 not boomed in Europe?

Answer : Supply side and promotion issues.

I have always found that interest in buying these boats has always been around. I was involved in succesfully forming buying groups but issues in the supply side have often prevented sales from being finalized. I also found that demo rides were the best way to

seal the deals

but I stopped giving those about 3 years ago and no-one made an effort to reinstate that promo-activity. Best is to give demo rides with a skilled F16 skippers onboard to put the boat through its paces. The finish the program off, we need a visible support structure that customers trust and value. I refer to the history of Capricorn sales for details in this respect. Maybe the question :

Why was the Capricorn F18 boom halted

can be very entlighting. The F16 class didn't have such issues in the USA and the results are obvious.

>>>Why has F18?

Answer, why did it take the F18's so long before establishing viable fleets in say the USA ? Different times, different area's, different opportunities. A good number of developments (both good and bad) come down on luck. F18's also had early support by large builders in EU (but not USA), F16 does not mostly because we are indeed a customer driven class. We created it partly because we, the founders/sailors/buyers, felt that 150+ kg singlehanders composed of scrapped F18 parts were not attractive and the large builders were not about to provide the right boats for the target groups like singlehanders, light to medium crews, mixed crews etc. In short, the foundation on which both classes were founded is different. F18 was more a builders oriented class, created by builders (Mattia, Alado, etc) and actively pushed by it. F16 class was more of a correction of a skewed multihull scene and creating ourselves what the builders wouldn't not create for us.

>>I don't believe they compete against each other for sailors but should complement each other.

Yes, that was always the intention of the F16 class ever since the founding (among other things). The F16 class was actively engineered to fill in the remaining gaps, consolidate the catamaran scene around a few classes catering to all possible desires and act as a growth path to higher flying classes like the F18's, A-cats and any olympic class. Personally, I feel that truly entry level multi classes are still missing at this time. The SL16 class is mostly a French affair (nacra 500 would have been a better choice from an international perspective) and we still miss a laser-1 equivalent as the F12 class has not really provided that yet. See also the schematic that is attached to this posting.

>>>The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.

I dare say that such considerations were already made at the very beginning. Several builders were consulted and indeed bought into that vision and truly believe in it. I name Formula Catamarans (Aus), Stealth Marine (EU), Catamaranparts (EU) and Falcon Marine (USA). Rumour has it that more are seriously considering it. AHPC was also consulted and did sell fully optimized boats to F16 customers at one time (Taipan F16's, modified at the factory). As such the class has a future for there are people like myself hwho will seriously consider boats made by these builders. I'm spoiled for life now since I've owned a F16 ! <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" /> Not a weekend goes by that I don't thank the lord for my truly lightweight versatile boat. Often because other crews (of heavier) boats ask me to help them handle their boats from the parking to the waterline. I'm one of the very few that actually walks up his boat on the sandy incline; others use the electric winch.

The choice for these specific (lightweight) F16 specifications was inspired by professionalism. It aims at getting truly well made boats available from builders and the balance between the specs make it them very attractive buys. As such customers are much more willing to part with lots of money. All beach cats are expensive, that is a given, so it is much better to have a setup that speaks to the imagination of the customer. It just occured to me that maybe not so much the class but the builders/agents must expect to come under pressure to become a bit more

professional

. Gone are the times where a 150 kg singlehander can be advertized as being state of the art.

>>>Do you want manufactures involved?

Yes, but on our terms !

The F16 class has a mission statement, if you will, and it doesn't want to end up back at 150+ kg boats composed of scrapped F18 parts and still cost 17500 Euro's.

>>>Do you want full development?

No, but we do want controlled development. Not evolving is equal to dying slowly. Heaps of multihull examples can be found for that.

>>>Do you want to limit costs?

Not really. We either want very well and purposed engineered boats for reasonable costs (say F18 costs or less) OR we want truly inexpensive boats (< 12.5000 Euro's) that are still sufficiently well behaved.

What we don't want is the worst of both worlds by giving up the best of both worlds as the F16 class currently appears to deliver. Afterall, I can buy a 15.000/112 kg Falcon F16 that has been specially developped for versatile 1-up/2-up sailing. A 40 kg less then the big builder alternatives and also 3000 Euro's cheaper.

Better still would be to work up such a market as the F16 class that customers are willing to pay more for these boats and thus allow the builders to earn more for their

professionalism

. That would result in the ideal situation. Better boats with better earnings. Everybody will be more happy then. More happy then even with

less

better boats and more earnings.

>>>Who makes these decisions?

The class members do, but also to some extend the class founders. The latter do not have any special votes or whatever, but they did create the class with a clear vision that is now encoded in the F16 class rules. If they wanted to be part of the

old way of doing things

(heavy, expensive, mediocre and stagnant) then they would have bought into one of the existing classes that were around at the time (2001).

Transforming this vision into

the old way

by repeated votes and lobbying will not do any good. It will only make the class schizofrenic as it will try to act differently then what it truly is at its core. No one will benefit from that. Not the builders (who will first destroy a class and market in order to save it) and also not the boat owners (as they will resent them for it after knowingly buying into the old vision). Lets not forget that many of us have spend large sums of money to be part of this F16 class. It is not only the builders and agents with a sizeable stakes in how things are progressed. No-one wants to be grandfathered out of the class after having spend 15.000 bucks and often also lots of spare time as a volunteer.

I hope my statements are helpful in some way,

With kind regards,

Wouter

Firstly welcome to the class and this forum....

I actually postulated a way to

measure

hull speed alone.. Discounting good and bad crews.. Nothing more or less..

Do expect a lot from you and you teams!! you are both extremely talented sailors around the peaks of your skills.. I also expect others to pick up in response to a good team emerging.

Im sure there are reasons you chose the Viper.. AHPC builds a good platform.. I dont know if you spoke to all the manufacturers who currently build F16s or who have F16s on the boards.. Im sure though its a private business decision (as it should be)..

congrats and all the best with the design..

Totally driven by the $$$ is my educated guess.

Because pushy smart butt like macca with backing from the large manufatcurer ( its no secret who it is)constantly picks at the edge of the current class rules to suit his employers wishes........not the sailors.

I have said it many times before, but once more for the dummies: I am not employed by any manufacturer currently.

Who's Backing Macca??

I don't think Macca needs anyone's backing - He is apparently quite capable of backing himself into a corner from which it seems, he has no retreat. And like all things cornered, he will use any and every means that springs to his mind, trying to extricate himself from “a sticky situation”. Still if Macca’s “opinions” are really his own, I respect that, as long as he respects my rights to disagree with them.

I believe Macca when he says that he is not

employed

by a manufacturer. But that doesn't stop him from acting on behalf of a manufacturer as a paid

consultant

on a contract basis. I employ quite a few people in my company, but that are all contractors. Saves me paying holiday leave, sick leave and super.

Clayton - Stop these ridiculous insinuating statements. The F16 association does not need this kind of garbage. If you REALLY know WHO is paying him… Just say so, otherwise SHUT UP.

It is comments like this that will damage relationships between this class and ALL manufacturers. If you want their support, then stop treating them with such disrespect.

Sh!t, 3/4's of the reason I bought a F16 was so I could join the infighting.

I am sure the F16 sailor's (from here) veiws are a lot different than that of sailors from the F18, A Class and Tornado class for example. Perhaps this discussion should be on the open forum where there will be less bias and should I say it..... A more experienced view.

And for all those who say you can not build a lighter boat because the class restricts the min weight..... you are correct. But you can sure as hell build a stiffer one with more volume. And to think it would not cost more than an A class and not be a quicker product is sticking your head in the sand.

Right, the more you are screaming that the sky is falling the more you'll get the same reply.

The facts simply contradict your convictions.

All prices are incl. EU taxes.

High hull volume, stiff platform ?

Viper F16 (with alu mast); 15.950 Euro's (and 23 kg over min. weight)

Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/viper_f16.html

High hull volume, stiff platform AND minimum weight ?

Stealth F16 (with carbon mast stand.) : 15.000 Euro's
Falcon F16 (+ carbon mast upgrade): 18500 Euro's (15.000 with an alu mast and 5 kg over min. weight)
Aussie Blade F16 (+ carbon mast upgrade) : 17.150 Euro's (15.600 with an alu mast and very close to min. weight)

Source : Last quote I know off (Stealth Marine website is currently offline)
Source : http://www.falconmarinellc.com/falcon_pricing_2009.pdf
Source : http://www.formulacatamarans.com/pricing.html

The pricing for the Raptor F16 is not known to me yet

I seem to remember that basic A-class cats start at 17.500 Euro's in the EU market.

Hot

A-classes like the Geltek flyer 2 are costing significantly more.

Modern F18's are :

Hobie Wildcat 19.815 Euro's.
Nacra Infusion 18.250 Euro's (add 1000 Euro's for race package = standard on F16's !)
Wasn't the Cap F18 18.500 Euro's a few years back ?
I wonder what the C2 F18 will be sold for ?
Even the outdated Tiger F18 is still 16.750 Euro in basic setup (race package costs 2500 bucks extra) Together no less then 19.250 Euro's !

Interesting detail is that the race package on the Tiger and Infusion actually contains the snuffer setup etc; pretty much essentials when it comes to racing; also contains carbon fibre boards etc. All of these things come standard on F16's !

I dare say that any modern F18 is between 19.000 and 20.500 Euro's on the EU market (incl. taxes) and for that you get daggerboards that weight 3 kg a piece (1.8 kg on a F16) !

In fact it seems that the F18's are more expensive then the A's and it doesn't seem to hold the F18 class back much at all !

This also disproofs the

believe

that one can actually force inexpensive boats by tightly regulating the class and using only cheap and heavy materials/components.

Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/hobie-polyester-55/
Source : http://www.lindstaedt.com/nacra_f18_infusion.html
Source : http://www.proust-sailing.com/polyester-55/495-hobie-tiger.html

So, I don't see the problem at all really.

In fact, we have actually PROVEN that our vision is the right one.

F16's, superior boats for less money !

Wouter

Is that actually translating into sales of boats? Wildcat is EUR3,865 more than a Viper, but on the front page of Sailing Anarchy today is the following:

The F-18 catamaran class continues its wicked ways, with new boat and sail designs popping up everywhere, and consistently big fleets popping up seemingly everywhere. From the SA-Europe desk of John Casey comes this short report:

Last week was a special one at Hobie Cat Holland. 15 new Wildcats came in just in time for the sailing season to start, and more are on the way. Almost all of the trade-ins were sold as well. The racing F18 fleet in the Netherlands should grow by heaps this year. We’ll see, as last year there were a steady 50 cats on the line for every regatta. A Dragoon and more Hobie 16s came in as well. My sports trainer and best friend, Rob Topper, always told me, “Never worry about how much you spend on the sport you love.”

Moths are one helluva expensive boat at USD21,500, but they can't build them quick enough with a waiting list of at least 3 months and orders coming from around the globe.

I am not seeing the these type of numbers being reported in the F16 class. This is probably where the discussion point should be.

Not selling me Wouter.

An A class is very little boat for what you pay for. Forget the length, think about what is on an A. 1 sail, very little fittings and ropes, no spinnaker equiptment.....

An F16 is very simular to an F18 in this regards and also require a boat of MUCH greater volume and strenght than an A.

Forget the F16s mentioned above, I keep seeing close to min weight and 5gk over. It is not min weight. Boats should be built a few kg lighter than min and brought up to weight with correctors. Yes, you can add carbon masts and beams but the price keeps going up. Add more volume in the hulls, use more carbon in the hulls, nomex, autoclave...... Then you will get a much stiffer, quicker boat that is at min.

I find it amusing that people like Macca, Brett, Greg and Bundy come on here with a hell of a lot more industry experience then anyone else here and are told they are wrong. Your head is that buried in the sand you can not hear good advice from those who would know.

With the Viper drive in Europe about to start, you will see the F16 grow into a more serious class and loose rules WILL be exploited. Your vision has proven nothing other than getting a class off the ground. Keeping it going in the right direction will be another story.

So obviously YOU are comfortable with manufacturers & their representatives dishing up garbage & incinuations and dont appreciate f16 sailors standing up to them.

Could this mean you are also associatied with a manufacturer.? AHPC?

Disrespect....hmmm....no dissappointment is more the issue. This individual claims no current backing by a manufacturer, (he is obviously curently is Aussie land), but when macca fly's back to Europe he assemblems boats for Narca, assists in the delivery of the same boats, provides customer support & gets to go racing onthe same product.

So which is the better of two evils here........disrespect or dishonesty.

The F16 class has a set of rules - if you dont like them dont play

Actually, I feel you have a point there !

In my opinion, making the F16's heavier or more restricted is not a solution for that problem (as these are not in any way related to the real problems).

Doing more promo, improving the dealorships and support network and getting out there with well skilled crews that show what these boats can do will be alot more effective.

Wouter

Im sure an A class skipper has different views.. Then Im sure a C class skipper has as well or even an ORMA skipper as well as maxi-mono hull.. I have views on their classes.. But Im not going to go into their forums just to stir.
But if you wish to go into the open forum and ask

Is the Tornado or F18 too heavy or the A class too light

.. please feel free.. <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Fact is you and macca were invited to give input when the class was being developed. Fact is you didn't.