Since we are constantly being badgered on the F16 forum by some of you F18 sailors, I think it's time to return the favor.
The F16 offers very nearly the same performance as the F18. The biggest difference being that the F18 can carry more weight.
The F16 is more versatile, so, if it happens that you like your F18 but can't find consistent crew, you might want to consider the F16. There are several makes to choose from and, unlike the F18 class, you will find the F16s very welcoming.
Pete I agree with all of your statements except that the F18 does not welcome new sailors. Can you give a reason or is that comment just to get attention.
Poor choice of words on my part. I'm sure you would welcome any new F18 sailor.
The F18 class has not been as open to participation by the F16 class as I would like and I think it's bad for the sport as a whole.
As an example, in '08 I took a week of vacation to work the Alter Cup. That year it was sailed on F18s. I volunteered primarily to help out my club, GYC, who was the host. Still, as an F16 sailor I saw it as an opportunity to help another fleet, catamaran sailing in general, and
The Cup
specifically.
I do not see this philosophy shared by the F18 class. At the recent F16 Nationals, F18s were specifically invited yet only four attended.
Since that time, I have heard (unsubstantiated) rumors that our event was the target of a specific boycott and that it was slandered as an
unfriendly
regatta. Perhaps you can shed some light on this matter? Either dispel the rumors, or cite a source so that I can rebute the allegations directly. There was nothing unfriendly about the event, it was well managed and well attended.
Pete,
I was at the 08 Altercup and you guys did a great job hosting. Thanks for your help. I don't see why the type of cat you sail has anything to do with helping your club that was hosting the AC that was sailed on F18's. I bet that some different type of cat owners helped when the AC was on F16's should they dislike the F16?.
I don't know anything about the F18's being invited to a F16 regatta. When was it ? Where was it? How did you advertise it ?
You have this backwards. But, I would like to hear an answer, why should
they
dislike the F16?
F18s have always been invited to GYC regattas. The regatta in question was held at GYC in April and advertised through all the usual channels. In the past that amount of notice has produced a significant F18 presence. This year only 1 F18 was not a GYC member. Perhaps you should ask them why. They may be able to shed more light on the poor turnout.
Pete
I really don't know who them is. I can only speak for myself and I don't dislike the F16's and have friends that sail them. I did not hear of your regatta and even if I did I more than likely would not have come not because of the F16's just it is a 13hour drive each way and that is too far for a weekend regatta.
Using you thoughts I could say that F16's don't like other cat sailors. Why where there only a few F16's at Spring Fever. I think there was around 80 boats and only a few F16.
How did I let myself get sucked in. Pete you are the master of conflict.
I am not. But I am tired of getting kicked around. Expect to see me here often.
I don't sneak around and slander people behind their backs. I don't think you do either, but there are members of your class that do. Expect me to confront this at it's source.
In my humble opinion the low F18 turnout at the GYC Multihull Regatta (which the F16 Nationals was a part of) had more to do with the fact that the GYC regatta was held the week after Spring Fever (which was also the F18 Southeastern Championships). The close proximity of these two races also probably had something to do with the low turnout of the F16s at Spring Fever.
Like most people who have to work to support our sailing habit, you have to prioritize your time off and select regattas carefully. As an F18 sailor, I chose Spring Fever (F18 Southeastern Championships). My participation on Saturday and Sunday of the GYC regatta was due only to the fact that I live 10 minutes from GYC and didn't have to travel.
Pete, I am not privy to the
unsubstantiated rumors
that you are referring to, but I'm sure you have an idea of who you want to target. Why not target them directly instead of going after the entire class?
It's your class and your business, I shouldn't have to take care of it. In any case, it affects the relationship between the two classes, you folks need to decide which path you take.
Did you find the event unfriendly?
As others have posted - You have some valid points but having lurked thru no end of ****storms over the F16, your claim here is open to debate.
Tiger Mike
There is no need for a debate, either the F18 class is open to sailing with other classes or it isn't.
The **** storms surrounding the F16 class, more often than not, are started by outsiders and dumped on the class.
In any case, let's do this over here for a change.
Is this S Storm over the adding of the F-16 to Racine this year?
Did you find the event unfriendly?
Pete - Forgive me, but I don't understand what you feel you have to take care of in regards to the F18 class? I was simply offering up an explanation as to why the turnout at both regattas was low for each class, respectively. Did I find the GYC event unfriendly? No, I always enjoy regattas hosted by GYC. My only suggestion for the regatta was for it to include the scoring option to sail only two days (like the Spring Fever scoring) for those classes not competing for a National Championship. However, this is not a class issue, but a decision of the Organizing Authority.
I get the impression that your entire purpose of starting this thread is just to create a rift between the two classes. I honestly think that there is more underlying your intentions here and I would suggest that you take this up with the individuals involved and not make this a class thing. It will benefit neither class to continue these unfounded attacks and accusations. We should be fostering positive relations in order to continue the growth of sailing.
Pete,
As long as I have been sailing in the F18 class (I think around 2001) the only F18 only regattas that I know of are the one championship that is held each year. That is one regatta which is a week long just for F18's hosted by a club that puts in a bid for the event. Like your club did for the Altercup. I believe that most other cats do the same for there championship the F16, H16,H20,TheMightyHobie18,H17,A cat, N20,F17. Some of those classes have joined forces because of low turnout. So to answer your question yes the F18 is open to sailing with other classes and has except for the one championship each year which is there premier event.
Pete you might want to check the events link on this site because based on your reasoning the Waves, H16,H17,H14,H20 don't like the F16 either because they did not invite the F16 class to there Championship. You have a lot of typing to do tonight on the other forums. I have to go get some popcorn.
No thanks, I'm interested in how the F18 class feels.
Pete,
I guess you did not take the time to read the post and check on the history of the F18 class.
Here I go again be sucked in, man you are good at causing conflict. This might help you if you have a problem with someone or you feel that you have been wronged it is better to take it up with that person in private and not on a forum.
I won't be answering any more of your post unless you have something positive to say.
I guess you did not take the time to read the post and check on the history of the F18 class.
Here I go again be sucked in, man you are good at causing conflict. This might help you if you have a problem with someone or you feel that you have been wronged it is better to take it up with that person in private and not on a forum.
I won't be answering any more of your post unless you have something positive to say.
+1
The F16 offers very nearly the same performance as the F18. The biggest difference being that the F18 can carry more weight.
The F16 is more versatile, so, if it happens that you like your F18 but can't find consistent crew, you might want to consider the F16. There are several makes to choose from and, unlike the F18 class, you will find the F16s very welcoming.
hi pete,
i'm the one posting the discussion on making F18's lighter. i sail with different crews and often think that together with female crew the F18 is quite heavy to handle one the beach. therefore i'm very interested in your claim that F16's deliver nearly the same performance than F18's. i would welcome a lighter cat. two years ago i encountered a group of F16's (mainly Blades) and it struck me how big the speed gap was between my Capricorn and the Blades (in favor of my F18). i've also read the successes of the Viper and am wondering of the F16 can really come close to an F18, after the obvious development the F16's have gone through?
Hi Max: I'm having a little trouble following you but I think the answer is yes. The F16 has very similar performance to the F18.
If your Cap was a lot faster, my presumption is that you are a better sailor. I often sail on the same course with F18s and the better sailors always win, boat for boat.
http://www.sail-world.com/USA/Belgi...
http://www.vvwheist.be/component/co...
I treat people the way I am treated. I found this in the backwaters of the web, a week after the regatta.
It's pure bs, that I was never contacted about in any way. I certainly never received a request, from anyone, for three day scoring.
Okay Tim I get it's an F16 only event, so why pretend you want other fleets at your regatta. Just say it's a closed regatta and be done with it, don't go out of your way to make it difficult for those that can only support a weekend event. I do find it interesting that a fleet that demands to be included in every other fleets events/starts that you can't be accommodating at all when it comes to other fleets, and we don't even want to start with you, we just want a standard Saturday start time and 3 day scoring (which aint rocket science).
The GYC board (which Pete and Stephan are a member of) were asked about doing 3 day scoring and they simply said no. Besides why would I approach them again regarding this issue? Why would their position be different now, it's not an abstract concept. Stephan and Pete have done a couple of regatta's before so I'm pretty sure they know the routine and I'm sure they are aware that a 10AM start on the day expecting teams of new arrivals is a bit unusual. Not to mention that some of the most vicious criticisms regarding regatta management and for that matter organized sailing all together have come from Mr. Pollard. I guess I expected something a bit more inclusive and accommodating, because that is after all what the F16 fleet expects from every other fleet.
- David Ingram. You can find the full thread here. http:/
I deny having ever said anything
vicious
but I readily admit defending myself when attacked.
If Ding had had the decency to contact me with his concerns, I might have been able to do something about. As it turns out, I was contacted by a F16 sailor about the 10 o'clock start; I immediately asked the PRO for a delayed start and my request was declined.
I exchanged a series of cordial emails with David about a month before the event. At that time I asked for his help with weighing and measuring. He declined, with good reason, and I made appropriate, alternative arrangements. There has been no further contact between us. Then I found the above diatribe.
The point is, you were all welcome at the event. There was never any intention to exclude anyone.
Pete you are correct sir that post was out of line and I also apolgized for my comments publicly in the same thread, which I have quoted below.
I've also sent you my cell number and asked you to call if you have issues with me. I look forward to speaking with you. If anyone else would like to talk to me directly please let me know.
I was also out of line hanging this on Stephan and Pete, but they are members of the board and are therefore accountable in that role.
I'm hot about this because our numbers get smaller and we become more incestuous every year, yet we as sailors say we are okay with a situation that clearly does NOT promote the sport or invite current and new members to participate. I just don't get this! Why am I the only one that considers this unacceptable?
Apology accepted. I'll see you at Kelly Park, it should be a good weekend.
The volunteer corp at GYC is grossly overworked. We're going to have to do fewer and smaller events.
My apologies as well.
The only problem with the F16 is that it will cost about $40,000 when people start building it to the rule. As soon as you start to hit critical mass that will happen and all existing boats will be obsolete. So in that regard I’d say the F18 is a good alternative.
The boats are all built to the rule. We hit critical mass some time ago and the last time I checked the price was around $16k.
Inside the rule is not the same as to the rule.
http:/
Hell it's your class so you guys do what you want. You asked the question and I've taken the time to give you my answer.
Best of luck to you and the class.
Thank you.
A bit less. I've been exploring it, and it'd be about $35k to get a Viper-like design, (big volume+stiff), to weight. Cheaper if you can order more than one.
But there is always the possibility of it reaching that $40k number. Gotta pay to play.
Stop propelling BS about the F16's guys.
The fact that Greg has CHOSEN to build the Viper INSIDE the F16 class rules and not ON the F16 class rules has nothing to do with whether this is possible of not for a price tag of sub 20.000 bucks.
19.800 USD will get you a minimum weight carbon masted fully race rigged (Pentex, carbon boards etc) 2-up Falcon F16 in the USA.
Source : http:/
All the rest is just ignorance.
That is all I wanted to say and I'll step out of the discussion now. (Pete, what are you exactly doing here ?)
Wouter
Wouter
Ignorance is beleiving current F16s are built anywhere near to the rule.
A full carbon, prepreg autoclave full volume stiff F16 will cost significantly more than an A Class and would be superiour to all current F16s in the market.
Seems everybody and anybody in the sailing industry (other than F16 sailors) know this.
Cation, if you want to bring the fight here, you may have more than just F16 sailors posting comments about this.
Stephen,
We are NOT going to have that discussion here on the F18 forum.
Period.
Wouter