Hi Mike B
-With so many of us with so much enthusiasm believe we will succeed , as you mention ,it is very difficult to get people to agree , think mainly because we have not yet clearly understood the problems .
Your offer to contact Hobie and Performance is I,m sure greatly appreciated by all .
-Also believe we should refrain from using very negative overly dramatic terms like
bastardizing
in rules discussions , there is no faster way to turn potential class members away from this class ,-we have a very different set of existing circumstances in N A ,--Our intent is not to bastardize anything , but to promote a more inclusive better higher performance developemental form of equal racing in the U S ,---SO
back to earth
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- 1-We have Nacra with 200 existing Inter 20 s with a 14.5 sq ft larger mainsail . We took basic measurements 2 years ago when we first considered F-20-The headboard and top batten are much larger than existing F-20s along with coresponding roach {trailing edge of the mainsail }.Nacra's goal as with all mfg is to sell boats , the boat dealers are active and do a tremendous amount to help support racing .
-Hobie has the Fox with comptip . there is no large active Fox class to date.
Both companies goal is to promote and sell their product .
-Mainly because of the Hobie family
{ wonderfull people}
and the early success of the H-16 , The H-Class has maintained the vast majority of the catamaran market .
-Hobie needs to improve the Fox , but there is currently no motivation for them to do so , as we continue to hear directives of Hobie first oriented regattas .The class Assoc. over the years has brought thousands of people into sailing and racing ,and has been great for the sport .
-The extent of support the new N A Formula Classes will recieve from Nacra ,-Hobie or any boat mfg. will be in direct proportion to the number of boats sold , The real support for the class will be in boat dealers who race themselves and may sell several brands of catamarans , also from the many various sailing clubs around the country , including Formula starts in their regattas , distance races and general organization, and mostly from enthusiastic avid racers like ourselves willing to organize and promote the class ideals and bring new people , new events, and life into the sport.
-There currently is no way to keep both H fOX and I -20 as they are , One has a carbon fiber mast and larger sail area.One has a comptip.
-We have numerous existing active racing 20 ft catamarans in the U S in ranging weights and sail areas that we can not ignore either .
-Please propose a comprehensive SOLUTION , because of the existing described set of conditions we have in N A -existing formula rules developed in Europe in 93 will be largely ignored in the 20 ft class ,--
-The 18 Class will have some success due to the Tiger , Nacra F-18 and several other cats developed specifically to the F-rule , Many racing sailors wanting those specifically drafted structured rules will be attracted to that class , It is the perfect size for husband -wife type teams ,and the majority of sailors , now along with a new HT F-16 Class, allowing one up or 2 up racing.
-Maybe the 20 Class in the U S should take the lead and become more of a combination of Formula and developement class encouraging and allowing faster ,safer , designs to evolve .
It really depends on what type of sailing you personally enjoy . If your perception of the 20 class is a strict type of one design allowing different mfg. that,s great , but believe this leads back to a one design fleet with one mfg.boat dominating the scene with little variation between boats .
-What many others may envision is more of a developemental 20 class allowing more individual innovation geared to racing enthusiasts ,similar in rules structure to the A Class , but allowing more developement through a range or boat weights and sail plan configurations , and also including all the existing various active racing 20s .
Carl
Matt
I currently race an Inter 20 in the summer and a Hobie 14 (frostbite fleet of 20 boats) in the winter. I started racing cats as crew on a Hobie 21. This was the first real spinnaker boat in the US. I leaned the fine art of sailing a cat with a spinnaker in buoy racing. A year later I purchased my own Hobie 21. We had a class of around 10 boats the racing was great. The class was starting to dwindle and Hobie decided they didn’t want to support the class anymore. I got out while my boat was still worth something. At that time the Hobie 20 class was the biggest, but shrinking, 20’ boat. The Nacra 6.0 fleet was gaining momentum. I felt the competition was going to end up in the 6.0 fleet so I purchased a new 6.0. I hated racing without a spinnaker, I had a spinnaker for distance racing and fun sailing. It still left me wanting to sail around the buoys with a spinnaker. When the I20 came out I was a little hesitant to jump ship on the 6.0. We had a big class and very good sailors. I sailed the I20 once and I had to have this boat. The balance and feel of the boat was so sweet. I bought an I20 in August of 1999. Raced in the 1999 at the Performance North American a month later. I came in second to Matt Struble after only two regattas on the boat. I also hadn’t raced against any other 20s until the NA’s. The local class has 4-6 boats at all of our races. Four of the boats can win any races at anytime. The others are catching up fast as we have been coaching them on spinnaker handling. We race one-design class most of the time and start with the 6.0’s. I have sailed the Hobie Fox and I am sailing the Tiger at the Alter Cup in June. I am interested in sailing F18 also. I sail the I20 at close minimum, we would be under weight right now, and could get to f18 weight easily.
I have been a fleet commodore and also a NACHA Division Chair. I don’t have an allegiance to any boat or manufacture but I believe there is a boat out there that can fill everyone’s needs. I have been personally attack on the other Forum, but I was from people that don’t know me. I have spent a ton of time giving back and helping all sailors. Mike Hill could back me up on this. This weekend I will be helping a youth sailor get his rudder system fixed on his 14.
I think I am done.
Matt thanks for the reply. It’s always good to know a persons background to better understand where their view come from.
Hi Carl
Thank you for taking the time to write me such a nice response letter, sorry about that “Bastardizing” thing I promise not to use the “B” word again I guess my enthusiasm ran away with me.
In any type of racing where more then one Mfg. is involved you run the risk of one Mfg. becoming King (with Any Set of Rules You Chose) the Excitement comes in dethroning the King.
Mike B
Thanks Mike ,-
I am over reacting a little ,-sorry --do you know what the inside scoop is in Hobie class politics now , --all the references to the king ,and holding Hobie oriented regattas only , and dictating how local fleets conduct their regattas .
-Raced H-18s for a decade ,then H-21s, but I,m out of the loop so to speak .The Fox seems to be not well accepted , the Tiger may be their only active current marketing push .--Can you suggest any way for this new 20 class to work with them .
-Believe it would be best if they rethought the Fox and built a lighterweight higher performance version , --but doubt that this would happen , --it would save that class ,
The Fox is an excellent basic design ,but at that weight and alum mast competing even up with c f masts , --well .
The marketplace and direct competition will demand greater effort from ALL mfg, and builders for better lighter higher quality cats.
Hi Carl
Yes I am sure Nigel is out Rich is in , but our Fleet is always going to have an Open Class Regardless of Who’s in Charge and I am reasonably sure most fleets feel the same way.
I hope with a little work we can make the Formula Class work for everybody Yes Everybody, but first lets take this in smaller steps, the start of a Production class (I20, Fox, I18, Tiger, Nacra F18)and really there are only small differences between the Fox & I20 Using if20 Rules (for the most part) there is a weight limit for the mast and the boat (Hobie cat of Europe ships all boats at minimum 190 kg. they add weights to the front cross bar, Performance Ships to Europe at min. 190 kg ) you can use carbon you just have to add weight. Hobie has claimed (Hobie Cat of Europe) that their mast (all Alum. From Europe) is just as light but more durable then Carbon. So we are right back to that Silly Sail Area Thing and I would love to see it come down to just one Thing. If we can get a Production Formula Class to work Your HP Class will Be a Snap.
The hole thing goes Crazy when we try to be all Inclusive, but the funny thing is all the boats you want to Include can work within the Production Formula.
One step at a Time!
Mike B
The mast weights are not the same. I own an I20 and raced (and setup) a Fox last year. There is a big difference.
FYI The mast I used had a comptip.
Update: Both the Fox & the Tiger can be Purchaced with an all Alu. Mast from Hobie Cat of Europe.
Mike B
Carbon mast versus alu mast (no biggy)
Carbon mast IS allowed under IF20 and Hobie decided that alu was better for their design. Personally I don't expect any performance difference between Carbon I-20 and Alu Fox mast. Both are prismatis sections. Real benefits come from non prismatic carbon masts. Picthing is not really a problem on a 20 foot boat no matter what kind of mast. And Can any of you quantify the benefits of the carbon mast ? I think not.If you do some Research you will find that A-cat name the following two points as benefit to carbon.
- Better trimming
- Less weight up high
For the first to become effect you first need to learn to trim properly or even really well. How many of you do That ?
The second is of minor importance on 20 foot designs. Is alu much lighter ? Example T4.9 alu blank is 13,5 kg, T4.9 carbon blank = 9,5 kg's, not that mush is it ?
Drawback of carbon.
- Less flexible than alu, more difficult to depower
- Smaller sailshape control span
- expensive
- Needs more care.
I say PC and Hobie made different choice based on the pro and cons given and I wouldn't go as far as to say the PC carbon is a better choice. This despite the fact that carbon is a better choice in A-cats, but there te carbo mast are non prismatic and non constant in layup. I very much doubt wether PC carbon masts are.
Hobie and Nacra battle it out here, What more reasurrence do you want for equality between these two designs.
Please correct me when I'm wrong
Wouter
Thanks Mark B --Barry ,--Majsteve ,--Wout --
-Realizing you are right , I may be reaching too far with an idealistic weight to sail area formula that the vast majority of sailors will not comprehend .
-The next best alternative is to have the Fox and Hobie Europe agree to build it to the same specifications as the existing Inter ,-same mast weight , same boat weight =390,-same sail area {added 14.5 sq ft main , as well as all other boat mfg. for the N A market .
-Majsteve has been preliminarily working on this in contacting some at Hobie to discuss the Formula classes , along with potential major sponsors for future events .
Having participated in Prosail and the Ultimate Yacht Race events in 88 on H-21S , this is very exciting stuff , but the top levels will take a new direction in the future.
-iF we can set those basics -mast weight ,-boat weight ,-sail area , then we can proceed through the rest of the rules , allowing snuffers , pole length , min.weight , crew compensation factors , etc ect ,
Then the difficult task of which existing cat designs to allow dispensation , or special consideration to , allowing them to race basically as they are for a limited period of time with the same chute sizes -270 -within the 20 formula class,--
-As Mike suggested we can add a progressive boat weight reduction annually allowing lighter boats gradually over a period of time .
-Lets form a strategy and assist Hobie in promoting a higher performance lighter larger sail area version of the Fox ,
As I said ,if the 2 major cat mfg. in NA had built their new 20s the same , we may have formed a Formula Class 2 years ago .
A more developemental formula class would interest me more but , no one is going to have everything they want ,-
-hhmmm -developement formula 22 , -{-just joking }
All the best
Carl
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