F85SR Concept Boat

Now it is time to start the second half of the main hull.
A pic of setting up the frames to build the stbd half of the main hull. I made up a measuring stick and transferred the Keel to deck measurements for the frames so I could check them as the could splay out given how thin some are in the middle.

I've finished setting up the frames , installed the battens for the hull and started placing the foam. Just haven't taken any pics of that yet.

Foam in stbd side of main hull and filling rebates.
Feels like deja vu.

I have now laminated the inside of the stbd side of the main hull. I still have to foam plank and laminate the side and deck before joining.
I performed the lamination in two phases. The rear 3rd and then the fwd 2/3rds. Given the warmer temps at this time of year this gave me more time to get the vacuum in place during the vacuum window. I'm still keeping detailed notes of the resin used and removed from the hull in the vacuum consumeables. I also record the time of each mix and the temperature. The time and temp allows me to confirm that I get the vacuum on inside the window.
The resin content of the laminate is running at 45%.
Interestingly after wetting out the glass it is 55%, after adding the peel ply and applying a thin layer of resin to wet the peel ply. This allows the squeegee to move easily over the peel ply and shows up any dry spots the resin content is at 64%. After the vacuum and resin is taken out with the absorption fabric it ends up at 45%.
And yes to work stuff like this out I must have too much time on my hands.

First I did the rear section as per pic still under vacuum.

Pic of fwd section the day after as the vacuum was turned of at 10pm the previous evening.

I got up at 5am this morning to laminated the side panel in the stbd side of the main hull while it was still relatively cool.
I wanted make sure that I made the vacuum window while using fast hardener as running low on the slow hardener.
The data sheet show the viscosity of the resin with fast hardener to be much higher than slow and I found that and even with a lot of squeegey work the 922gms of glass plus the peel ply took 1600gms of resin. Hopefully vacuum will pull the excess resin out. I'll weigh the absorption fabric when it comes off to see how well it does this.
The vacuum pump is set to turn off when it reaches 25

/hg and back on when it hits 22

/hg.

I managed a particularly good seal for the vacuum on this job demonstrated by the duty cycle- running around 20 secs every 43 minutes. By far the best so far. Not that it matters, the control circuitry ensures the vacuum is maintained it's just the amount the pump runs which affects the electricity consumption.
The resin would be hard by now but I will probably wait until tomorrow to unwrap and start installing the battens to take the deck foam.

Phill, looks like it is going well.

What vacumn switch are you using, I've not really found ( other than pretty expensive commercial products ) a switch that can release the vacuum to let the pump spin up.

Wayne,
Mark (Try Flying) would be the better person to answer your question, he gave me the vacuum pump and lent me the control circuitry as well as a spare pump in case I had any problems during a session.
I looked at using the milking machine that I have but the startup current without a delay on closing the vacuum would be just too much and my two other vacuum pumps, while great for small jobs, are really too small for big hulls.

Hi Wayne

Phill told me about your question so far from being an expert here is what I setup for Phill and how i would go about putting in a delay if it was necessary for a piston pump.....

Phill's setup uses Gast rotary vane oil-less pumps so spin up is not an issue. The control circuit is a 24vdc vacuum switch with built in hysteresis that is set to the desired pressure and triggers the AC contractor for the pump (single phase). The vacumm circuit incorporates a old compressor tank and the none return valve is used to stop bleed back via the pump when it is off.

On a piston pump I'd put a two way air solenoid inline with the vacuum side of the pump that was normally open to atmosphere and control it with a delay timer (say 5 sec) that would allow the pump to spin up prior to being switched to the load side.

I threw the gear for Phill together using some scrap parts I had at hand so cost was zero. (Yes Phill is very lucky to have me as a close neighbor... I should get a few free sails in though <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" /> )

Hope that helps.

Cheers
Mark

My pump is a piston pump and to date the hulls I have pulled have been just big enough ( F16 ) to have just enough air leaks that I could leave them running. But I have to layup 2 carbon ski bikes which at this time of year I get hooked into and the moulds are quite small volume with very good edges to seal onto, hence the question.

Phill, yes I did buy a set of plans but work has been so continuos that I have not had a chance to start. Maybe this year.

Wayne,
Did you get the F85 plans?
I use plastic domestic irrigation hose and fittings. They are cheap as chips and work great. The hose slides over the bayonet fittings and seals.If ever in doubt I wrap a bit of tacky tape around the join.
I was surprised to find that even the taps are air tight and will hold a vacuum for many hours. I was just thinking that you could do it quick and dirty by putting in a

T

piece and a tap. Leave the piston pump running and regulate the vacuum with the amount you open the tap. I suppose it all depends on how much you are going to use it. The system Mark has put together works great for me as I'm doing quite a lot.

Yup updated my F82 plans to F85, as you know I always wanted the extra length and larger amas which Ian duly penned. Work commitments have been pretty relentless over the last few years and it's getting to the stage where I may have to simply take 6 months off and get building.

Funny you mention irrigation pipe, I may try to

infuse

these bikes, and the small pin holes every few centimetres may be just the answer. Still enjoying the building of things with composites and these little beasts are good winter fun.

Wayne you mention air leaks helping with your setup on larger projects....IMHO air leaks are bad. This means you will continue to draw out epoxy and also

infuse

your laminate with air = not good.

I'd suggest you make a large air receiver tank prior to your pump and also have an inline filter otherwise you will be drawing epoxy vapour into you piston pump.

Yup had a large receiver and inline filter in the line, by air leaks I meant minimum that we could find, the pump was really working hard. The new project is in a mould with very flat surfaces to seal and I think we could almost get to the stage where there is no leaks( if that is really possible ) And I worry that we may almost lock the pump hence my question of introducing some form of electrics to control the pump.

Thanks for advice though and I will look up your recommendations

I've finished laminating the inside of the stbd hull side.
I have worked out that if I can remove the strong back and set the frames directly on the concrete floor I will have just enough room
to get the port side back into the work area and set it on top of the stbd side ready for joining.
The concrete floor is very flat and very level but I will check the level of the frames prior to joining.
Once the port side is sitting on top, in that position I will be able to lift it high enough to create a 300mm gap
with the winch setup mentioned earlier.
Hopefully the capacity to lift the side up and down will help me align the second half of the Bulkheads that are yet to be fitted to the stbd side.
This should be a very interesting phase of the build.
BTW:- I'm still enjoying the work as much or even more than when I first started.

After carefully removing the strong back and lowering the frames down onto the concrete floor
I got some friends around to help me move the port side of the main hull into the work area and
place it on top of the stbd side so I can prepare the two for joining.
Now I have them both in place my winching system should enable me to do all the rest myself.
A couple pics below. Note I only remove the peel ply when I have to. It doesn't look much but sure
keeps the surface beneath clean and free from contaminants.

I got myself a water level to check all the frame levels to make sure everything was straight and without twist.
It turns out the concrete floor was not quite as true and flat as I expected over its full length. So I made up a simple means of adjustment.

Now each frame is set up so it is the correct level with the greatest variation being under 2mm.

PIc shows the winch lifting the port side up so I can easily work on B/Hs that I bogged into place when the two sides were together.

The only exception being the B/H that goes in under the **** floor.
I made up a couple of spacers when fitting the b/h half in the port side. Using them should ensure the two halves line up when joined.

I decided to paint the bottom of the hull before installing the
second half of the * floor.

When the last half of the floor went in I made sure it lined up perfectly.
The wooden cleats ensured this.

Time to get rid of the mould frames.
I used 2 x2inch webbing straps.
The black one on the trailer winches in the middle of the hull took nearly all he load. The orange one up front allowed the hull to slide over it as it rolled.

Mark came round to give me a hand. He is in the pic below.
This is the guy that machined the folding mech on the back wall, mould frames and the rudder plug. It's good to know people who take real pride in what they do.

Once upright the air powered in line sander is a must.
It takes off any flairing towards the edges of the foam to make a really fair surface.

With the main hull out of the frames and upright its time to get the stbd half ready to be laminated.
The plan is to do the cabin top, foredeck and side first. to this end I just filled these rebates.

I'm keeping the sharp corners between the cabin top, sides and hull.
My reasoning is if I can make it look fair along these sharp corner by sanding the flat panels leading up to them once I round off the corners it will look spot on.

Just a theory I have- see below. Should look even better once I round the corners.

Here is a shot over the *. I have made the longest cabin allowed for and the * it still huge.
Note I still have to finish trimming the cabin roof and side back to the companionway bulkhead.
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I forgot to mention that I have peel ply in several diff colours. I don't take it off until I have to .
This makes it look a bit shabby until removed but it has saved me twice big time.
Once inside taping in bulkheads I tipped over a pot of resin not noticing until it was emptied all through the hull.
I mopped up what I could and the rest will come out with the peel ply.
The other was when painting the hull under the * I tipped over the paint onto a section of the hull that I needed to glass tape.
I just pulled up the peel ply to give a clean surface for bonding.
Both saving a lot of time sanding.

The stbd hull side has been laminated in two parts.
The end of **** forward and then back.
In both cases I weighed everything that went in and out and in both cases
the resin content worked out at 46.5% of the total laminate weight. Below are a couple of pics.

Stbd side forward section under vacuum.

In this pic I'm removing the absorption fabric and excess resin. The peel ply is left in place for now.

A couple days back I laminated some uni and plain weave along the keel for added protection for beaching and trailering.
My original intention was to do this without a vacuum until I realised there was 3.5kg of glass involved.
With that much I decided it was probably worth vacuuming.
Once again I did the maths after the work and again got a 46.5% resin content in the laminate.
Pic below.

Hi Phil,

How do you get the asorbption fabric to lift off of the peel ply, do you have another layerof perforated release film, or is it due to the fabric itself?
The fluffy I'm using is pretty well stuck to the peel ply, and it all comes off as one.

Ed,
There is a layer of perforated film between.
The holes must have been poked through by a machine, very small and very close together, but one side is just a little more rough than the other side.
It can be very hard to tell which is the smooth and rough side because can't always feel it with your fingers tips.
When it is like this I rub it against my lips to work it out.

Right near the end of the project I found out that if it is laid on the peel ply with the smoother side down it will stick to the wet resin really well and the rougher side will be enough to hold the absorption fabric in place on vertical surfaces.
Also this way around the perforated film comes off the peel ply after cure very easily with the absorption fabric. The other way around and it won't stick and hold he absorption fabric so I had to come up with other ways of getting everything to stay in place. Also it stays with the peel ply
when the absorption fabric is removed.
Had me going for a while trying to work out why some sessions were just so much easier than others when it came to placing the consumable layers and removing them after. When I bought the laminating materials I had to buy a full roll of this perforated film and that was 1000 metres. Luckily it was quite cheap.
Regards,
Phill

For those that are interested here are some videos of my F85SR sailing.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLrBsmeznqOvzKiAz4qFy3j5F7qXo9VbTF

This boat is for sale if you are interested. Can be shipped anywhere.

Cheers
Glynn Thomas
Subic Bay, Philippines
glynnthomas72(at)yahoo(dot)com

Glynn,
The boats that I have seen made by Multihulls Direct have an outstanding, and I mean outstanding, quality of finish.
At that price it should be snapped up in a heartbeat.

All the best ,
Phill

I cut the anchor well, then two coats of resin into the section that would be out of sight once the floor went in. When I was building the hull halves I built into them a couple of supports on the sides for the anchor well floor. I just used some glass tape and foam left over from the beam flanges.
The pics below pretty much show how it is.

I made sure I put in really good fillets in the corners to make sure mud does not sit in them and is easily flushed out.

The foam where the drain holes have been drilled was first removed and replaced with a glue mix (resin and microfibre).

The holes then drilled through the glue mix and outer laminate. You can just see them in the corners in this pic.

.

My grand plan is to work from the bow back doing the little projects required to finish the main hull. to this end I really need to work out what I'm doing about the spinnaker pole and the socket it fits into.
The spec for the pole is a min dia of 90mm. This is a bit of a problem given the way that I wanted to make the pole. It is even more of a problem for the socket the pole has to fit into. To solve the socket problem I thought I'd have a go at making a collapsible mandrel and make the socket around it.

The only tube that was around 90mm was storm water at 88.9mm.
I decided I could use this to make a collapsible mandrel for the socket and also the mould for the actual pole itself (talk about pole mould later)

The mandrel was made by turning up some 20mm thick ply wood to fit neatly inside the stormwater pipe. 4 discs of ply were made. A section 600mm long of pipe was split lengthways with my multitool. This was so I could pass one side of the split inside the other to help the mandrel collapse. The ply discs were to stop this from happening until they get removed at the end.
Another section of pipe was split so it could be fitted over the first split section. This created a gap of around 13mm between each side of the split. A section of pipe was cut to fill the gap but there was still a gap the same as the width of the cutting blade in my multi tool. This small gap was filled by lighting a candel and letting the melting wax do the job. The excess was cut away with a box cutter. Se pic.

Some threaded rod was used an an axle through the ply discs
to help rotate the mandrel. A nut was welded on the rod and a plate to screw to one of the ply discs to help while the carbon was wound on , (ratchet spanner) and later to spin to help consolidate the layup (with cordless drill).

Some pics follow that may help.

A couple pics of the socket after it has been removed from the mandrel.

You can see the beginnings of the mould for the spinnaker pole in the background. I'll explain what I'm up to with that when I'm a little further along the track.

Curious minds are interested in learning what is currently going on in your workshop Phil <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Rolf,
I've been busy just haven't done much updating.

The spinnaker pole socket now has the carbon fore stay fitting in place.
I won't fit it to the main hull until the pole is made as this will help me line it up along the centerline and get the right angle to the WL.
The landing has been made for the foredeck hatch to give a flat surface to mount it in the curved foredeck. I didn't like the hatch I bought so have ordered a lower profile hatch from NZ. I hope to use the original hatch as an escape hatch. So the foredeck now has a hole in it that I can pass stuff through when working inside.
The mould for the spinnaker pole and boom is finished and I have sourced a roll of Lay Flat Tubing (polypropylene) and a device to seal the ends so I can make the cylindrical bag to inflate to compact the layup in the mould. I'm just waiting on the delivery of some carbon that I want to include in the layup.
I have just had a delivery of some parts that I need to make the carbon anchors for the screacher and spinnaker on the pole when it is made.
Mark has machined the foam blanks for my rudder and I have one complete layer of uni and twill on each foam half to make them really stiff . All done vacuumed to plate glass to ensure they are true.
All had a 200gm layer of glass laminated on C/L before machining to hold the foam when it get really thin and give a really good trailing edge. They have been glued together and the HD insert glued in place.

I have made a glass flange in the main hull to support the forward bunk. First went in some formwork to make a mould all covered in packing tape so it would release the glass.
Today I cut out the foam for the forward berth and it has been laminated and currently under vacuum.
I do have some pics and will post them when projects are getting close to being finished.
Still much to do and having fun along the way.
Regards,
Phill

You are really putting the hours into this project!

Was the Lay Flat Tubing expensive, and do you have any leads on where to get those? I tried the same thing with both vinyl plastic and old firehoses put both had their issues <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Thanks a lot for the update!