Okay Y'all, here's the deal....
14' and under.
Bob 
Here! Here!
Measured either from front to back, or back to front.
My opinion:
Length: 14' or less
Beam: 8.5' wide (as much as I agree that wider is better, wider is also more complicated and more work, which goes against what it seems we're really trying to do here. Add wings for a wilder recreational ride, but figure out how to race without them).
Mast length: 24'- these things are nice and light and the extrusions are pretty cheap. No real need for spreaders. I am not against someone showing up with an all-carbon mast, and will gladly race against them with a salvaged H14 stick. Carbon masts may even be relatively cheap to build at these sizes and strengths.
Sail Area: How much sail can you crowd onto a 24' stick? 
I really wouldn't want to sail a uni-rig if it could be avoided. A roller-furling headsail that could be used up- and down-wind would be great. Something like a really big jib on a pole 
Weight: 150-200lbs should cover it, boats could be built in the 100 or less range with exoctic materials that are out of the ability of the average DIY builder-sailor, and out of the price-range of someone just getting into the sport.
Adjustments: I'd give free reign on adjustment ability. I've sailed and raced on Prindle 19s and also on my G-Cat 5.7M. Aside from a few basics, all the extra adjustments just seem to add weight and complexity. A lot of lines to pull would confuse and scare away new people to these boats and this sport. Allow their boats to grow with their skill, and as they get better they can add whatever adjustments they feel they need to.
I would like to comment that I think the Cheshire is an excellent design, but I cannot fathom why it is so narrow (6'5") The cross-beams look like simple mast extrusions and easy enough to replace with wider versions. Also, I'm sure the manufacturer wouldn't mind widening the boat to 8.5' if it meant making the sale.
Also- especially for home-builders, the Quattro 14 design is already out: Quattro 14
Lots of sail! BIG hulls too (so I can race @215)
This sounds like fun. I might have to go rent a wave from someone and try it out. Would have to have a spi or hooter though I think for it to be "fun"
Hi TheoA,
The Wave really is a Hoot in heavy air, but also with a Hooter. That added sail area really makes it come alive. Last year I took second place in the Conch Cup with a Hooter and would have won had they used the right handicap number. Lots of boats in that race as well.
I know in some of the open regattas the Waves and 14s have started together and the 14s are a bit faster, although most of the Waves beat most of the 14s. Don't think that is boat speed, however. Most of the Wave folks are really hot sailors and the 14 folks were kind of new to the boat.
Had Bob Curry been there we would have seen him only briefly at the start.
It took me about a year to get the Hooter to work right on the Wave, but once I found the right dimensions it was fast upwind, downwind and reaches in winds up to around 12 mph -- after that it was too much wind for the Hooter.
Although, at that time I had not used the trapeze. Hmmm! With the Trap it could probably handle a lot more wind -- maybe footstraps on the rear beam?
This class sounds like a lot of fun. 
Rick
Rick,
Sorry for the Wave slam I just didn't think a Stock Wave could race against PN .77-.80 which brngs to my next great idea.
I see that even as this discussion evolves we maybe falling into the exact same problems that the other F-classes jumped into. We are making boat specs requirements and rules before we even have a class yet. That is like excluding paying members to a club that hasen't been formed yet. The first most important goal to this class is to hold a race and see who is actualy game to show up then decide what direction to take the class. (Going to apologize ahead of time Wouter) There is a big difference between who actually shows up and races as a class than who types the most on the forum. It is way more impotant to have a 15 boat class than a good set of rules.
With that in mind we could set up a temporary status of rules. I propose singlehanded portsmith ratings of .77 to .80 boats have to be raced according to one design rules with slower boats H-14 and Wave allowing modifications such as Square tops etc. I would take Rick's opinion over mine as far as what it would take to get a H-14 or Wave in the .77-.80 range. I also think as a class it is a good idea to get these two involved just by the shear numbers.
In case you haven't noticed I am bias to the Cheshire. Back in the early 60's the Cheshire cat was designed and built by Frank Meldau. As a small boat it was way ahead of it's time going to regatta's that had boats in the 20'ft range but was looked at like an aqua-cat. Here we are 40 years later and I think the Cheshire may have a new lease on life with this f-14 class.
If we are all serious about this I could probably make it to the Lake Hartwell Regatta this May.
J.P. the Terrible
Hi Carl,
I read that the target PN for this class is in the 80 to 77 range. Your SC15 is already there, old PN = 78.
The PN difference between the SC17 and SC15 was 5 points in the 1980s, 78-73 = 5. At the Tradewinds Race a few weeks ago the ARC17 sailed to, demonstrated, a PN of 70.1. The major difference between the SC17 and ARC17 is square top main and self tacking jib which has a much longer jib luff. Apply this sailplan scheme to the SC15 and you might have a SC15 capable of sailing to a PN of 75. Then add spinnaker and knock it on down to 72. No new technology required.
It sounds like many people interested in this class are talking about taking an old existing platform and working on the rig and sailplan. That's fine, and it is also low cost. What will throw a big bucket of cold water on this class is for someone to build from scratch a superlight weight boat that sails away from everything else because of its weight, not because it is a better design. To get this class going and keep it alive, it must have a minimum weight that is easily attainable. It sounds to me like a rule that says you must use an existing production platform would not be out of line with most sailors objectives. To keep the cost down, keep the minimum weight up.
Good luck,
Bill
Hey Guys,
What makes a fast boat and a boat that sails easy and smooth is BALANCE and COORDINATION of the parts that make up the system. You can't simply add sail area and have a boat that sails well. If it is a board boat, you have to go up in board area with increased sail area. If it is a boardless boat, the best you can do is rake the mast back and go up in rudder area with increased sail area. Think balance and coordination of the whole system. That makes a fast boat.
Good dreaming,
Bill
OK, Folks,
You now have an exclusive Forum for the discussion and development of the F14 Class. The new Forum is named Formula 14 Forum and is located at http:/
Of course, you may also reach it by simply clicking on "Main Index" at the top and toggle down to the Forum.
Hoping this helps move the discussions along.
Rick
hI BILL
Agree --a min. boat weight is important ,-weight is always a main factor of boat performance ,-this factor in the equation increases as a percentage as relative boat size goes down .
Some other class examples evolve into category one and category two sub class with weight variation min. per A cLASS - at 150 Lb Min boat weight in category one and 200 in category 2 --the 18 SQ--some mono classes -- etc.
A new lightweight hi aspect ratio mainsail only version HT 14 type with deep boards and rudders that weighs 50 Lbs less would certainly be much faster potentially than an older H-14 w spin .
It would be much like racing a Formula-18 with an 18 Ht
One weighs nearly 400 -the other under 300 Lbs --2 categories in that length become a necessity ,though all may start together numbers permitting at an event .
It sounds like Carl B --Bob ,-and a few others will establish basic rules and boat specs. It may be a 14 max length ,--not 15 ,--that seems reasonable ,--the class must be clearly defined . There are F 16 -18 --20 classes existing or proposed .
The other method some classes use when boat weights are close to equalize potential speeds is use a larger allowed sail area as compensation for the heavier weight or boat weight,--usually a slightly larger jib and larger spin area for the heavier boat ,-as weight is a factor downwind moreso than up on the race course.
Crew weight is a tough one ---suggest no crew min. weight ,--but just require any crew to be capable of righting .
If your willing ,they should consult with you on basic sail area to weight guidelines or the more technical questions on rules . You can readily provide the basic proven engineering -design equations to substantiate the rules outline and minimum weight --to max sail area sail area questions . 
It is a tough challenge to leave out individual bias and personal preferences based on your particular boat and a rule that may favor it . --It seems setting good basic engineering design measurement maximum specifications and then allowing all boat types to equally modify to those as they wish or to what extent is the best method .
All,
FORMULA 14 RULES are posted on the new F14 SITE. Thanks for all your inputs!!
Bob Curry
FORMULA 14 Class Director
Hi Carl,
It sounds like the class rule makers have already stepped in some. First they take a class that is only an idea at this time and divide it into two divisions. Nothing divided by two is still nothing. Don't divide the class yet. Let something get started and then if there is a different demand with some weight to it, add to the class rules to accomodate it later. Get started with one goal first; get critical mass.
Reading the posts so far, sailors want to take existing platforms and modify them some, like improve the sail plan and add a spinnaker and retractor system and "let's go racing". It reminds me of a 1950's stock car. Take a standard production US automobile and take the upholstery
out, tape up the lights, add a roll bar, take the air cleaner off the carburetor and "let's go racing".
That 150 pound class minimum weight is a scaled down all carbon A class boat that costs $15,000.00 US Dollars. What these posts are talking about is a $1500 dollar boat finished and ready to go racing.
Class organizers, listen to the people.
Bill
Bill,
Where do you see that there are two divisions? I don't get that at all from reading the rules.
bill,
the 150 lbs is for the skipper.....try 240 lbs for the boat...and i do not see 2 classes......
Hi Terry & Mary
my error ,-I mentioned 2 possible weight categories as an option for the 14 class ,--then Bill responded -
I made the same error in reading another poster's comments on including 15s ,--but the max length is 14.3 ft only .
I,m out cutting off a foot of stern on my 15 as I type this
The 14 forum looks good ,--a basic rules outline is posted though has a 150 min crew weight ,---the average female is 120 ,---hmmm . average youth sailor 110 hmmmm .
Carl,
Before you start cutting, note that the maximum length is not 14.3 feet, it is 14 feet, 3 inches.
I wish there was more debate before the rules were "set".
The width, length, and min weight simply seem like they are geared to allow H14's to be the only competative "stock" boat. When and more importantly why were these rules "used"?
I've raced against both the M4.3 (DPN 78) and Bob’s H14 Maxi (DPN 82) and I am hugely impressed with the H14M speed, given the difference in hull age. I do not believe the Portsmouth numbers for either of these boats due to lack of real race results HEAD TO HEAD.
If the F14 class purposes to run without corrections, how about testing the concept with these existing boats? Since both the M4.3 and the H14 Maxi are available in the Panhandle and you guys sail all year, how about a shoot out?
John W.(M4.3 sailor), if you don't think you can sail to Bob's level, maybe you could put some Rock Star on your M4.3 to keep naysayers from claiming the results are not fair. Randy vs Bob…that ought to draw some attention! 
Go, Bob! Show ‘em your Blaster!
David
Dunedin, FL
Mystere 5.0XL
(Since the Main Forum discussion is still lively on this topic, I have double posted with the F14 forum)
This seems more like it's being geared as a CLASSIC 14 class. It was my understanding that FORMULA meant a class that could improve the performance of a type of boat (in this case a 14' boat). However, the rules listed already limit the class to boats that are slower and heavier than most 14' boats out there, and certainly all 14' boats designed for racing after 1970.
Bill
My original rules were based on some modeling and a boat that I am building. The rules were not optimized for existing boats.
A scratch built 14, with no min boat weight, would enjoy a huge advantage. I proposed allowing boats under 240 lbs, a smaller max sail area, 120 ft2. This was apparently not accepted.
This pretty much kills me. I would be looking at ~100 lb of corrector weight on hulls designed for a 300-350 lb total boat and skipper. With 100 lb corrector, I suspect, the boat would be doggy and oscillate around the corrector mass in chop.
My boat was not designed for F14. It was designed as an updated tunnelhull, to give me a multihull to race against Portsmouth dinghies on the Wed Nights. It is 14ft long, 5 ft wide, using a Laser rig to get me on the water by mid April and then a carbon windsurfer/Moth/skiff derived rig by probably by June. Final rig will be 100 ft2 main with a ~100 roller furling downwind sail. Target weight 100-120 lbs. However, to preserve my options I added 1 in of hull height, more bow volume and designed the structure to handle an 8.5 ft beam and a larger rig. I am probably going to increase the beam to 7ft, mostly for my comfort.
I agree and disagree on boat weight however. First, I agree, for a production builder a 100-150lbm F14 would be really expensive $12,000-15,000 easy.If an aerospace firm built it, it would be $100K but it would only weigh ~80Lbm Second, I disagree, for a homebuilder it's not that simple. You could scale a Unicorn A-class and end up with 150 lbm F14. I am using strip planked cedar with Kevlar inside and glass outside mostly because I could not get the hull shape I wanted with plywood. If I were really careful about extra material I could probably cut 20 lbs off the boat. A far as cost, I should call this the ebay boat. Most of the expensive parts were purchased on ebay, over a period of years, really cheap or they are leftovers from old projects. You can't do that on a production line. Up to a point, a homebuilder has an advantage. However as soon as the designs stabilize and there is a big enough market the production builder will eat them alive.
Carl
Hi Carl,
Don't be too quick with the saw on the bow. It is very easy to move a transom forward a few inches. Also for a slightly short boat, it is easy to extend the existing hull shape by bending a piece of formica or bendable plywood around the outside of a hull aft end and then let it extend aft to the desired overall hull length. Next wax the inside surface and build the extension inside this quickie mold.
Bill
Mary,
Does 14.3ft mean 14ft and 3 inches or does 14.3ft mean 14ft and 3.6 inches?
Bill
The rule states 14' 3" - I think some of the confusion comes from the Mystere 4.3 (meters)
You're correct, Jake. I just talked to Bob about that, and he said it is 14 feet 3 inches, period.
The Cheshire Cat is not a new design. The Quattro 14 is also not a new design. Both of these are advertised in the 170lb range.
Rick White's Hobie Wave has a 20' mast, a 7' beam and no trapeze. He uses 187sq.ft. of sail and does not seem to be overpowered by it. Besides, a quick pull of a line and all that Hooter rolls up to tame the boat. I cannot see why an 8 to 8.5' wide boat with a 24' mast and trapeze system couldn't easily carry 200 sq. ft. max.
I have the same thoughts as you Synchro. Seems as though this new class that was created ?!?!? simply caters to those that sail H14's and want to tweak them.
My biggest problem is that:
at 225lbs, on a H14, I'm uncompetitive under most (if not all) conditions. If the weight was lower, and could use a wider beam, I think it would open the door up for a broader base of boats to be used. This would in turn attract more sailors, etc...
I still would like to know why Bob was appointed, and if he came up with these rules all by himself or what? I understand Bob is an awesome H14 sailor, and intend no disrespect, but I though class rules should be developed by the people that want to make it a class.?!?
Never mind. Thought the 4.3 would be part of the basis for a box rule, but instead, with the proposed rule, I'd need to add a boom, bigger sails, and take off the 'chute, which is the best part of sailing the smaller boat. Or buy a H14 or rig a Wave like Rick's. I like my boat - guess I'm off the team roster. 
Well, is this a free country or what? If we don't want to conform to the current set of F14 rules (which as I understand are still under debate), we can just make our own rules and a F14HP class. "High Performance" doesn't have to mean "High Tech"
Sounds fine by me! I just don't quite get the current rules. Your previous post sums up exactly how I feel. I don't wanna sail a H14 at all, in a big wind I'd sink it
Now whos gonna be the F14HP class pres 😀
Hang on! I saw that there was no mention of a spinnaker but it did say "headsail" and a headsail is technically defined as "Any sail set forward of the foremast." So.....the spinnaker on the 4.3 is still in - right? Or does it not fall within the overall sail area rules?
I like the rules except for the sail area restriction. Heck, make it like the ozzy 18's - no sail restriction...he who hang-eth on-eth longest wins. Seriously though, make a mast height restriction but leave the sail configuration open. I have been chased closely by Rick and his Hooter Wave before (and I was on a 5.2 and placed 3rd!).
Building a 14' Formula boat will be high on my list of "to do's" if this thing takes off.