14-foot Formula-style Class?

Hey Jake -

Sure, I'm allowed to have the 'chute, just not the main or jib... or vice versa. The 160 sq. ft. limit leaves me with way too much or way too little. My existing jib is as high up the mast as I can go, so I can't rob a 5.5 without adding a longer forestay and a new hound higher up the mast. Then, with the new jib, I'd need a barberhauler, 'cause my jib blocks are fixed on the front beam. I'd better add a boom, too, if I expect to keep up...

Too much drilling and riveting on a perfectly good design already. Might as well get another boat. My feedback on the draft rule was more sail area and no minimum weight, or a formula to reduce corrector crew weight if you exceed boat weight.

I'll be watching, too - it's a good idea, even if I can't play.

I have a feeling that there may be exciting NEW news coming this morning about the Formula 14 rules that will make everybody happy -- well, almost everybody.

>>That 150 pound class minimum weight is a scaled down all carbon A class boat that costs $15,000.00 US Dollars. What these posts are talking about is a $1500 dollar boat finished and ready to go racing

Try tortured 3 mm and 4 mm marine ply. Gets you easily to 160 lbs on a 14 footer and costs less than a glass boat as well (lets alone carbon). There will be no 1500 US boats as sails mast and block will cost more than that.

Let we not forget that torture ply boats of low weight are already build by many sailors. Think paper tiger, arrow and sorts.

Besides Carbon is not more expensive than glass; major cost is the labour anyway.

Wouter

240 lbs (108 kg) for the boat ?

Okay; than the Australians are out as well. No way they are going to build or design a 14 foot boat that weigths 240 lbs or more.

Wouter

Bill, have you looked at how light a high quality builder can make a strong light boat without being all carbon.. AHCP can and does build foam and glass "A"s under the weight limit.. Now I may agree with you no US manufacturer can build to there standards.. But I can assure you a aussie home builder can and do build light ply boats..

Stewart,
I'm probably telling you what you already know but the Glass/foam Paper Tigers come in at min weight without the use of carbon. That is complete platform weighing 50kg.
Ready to race would be around 70kg.= around 150lb

A couple of years back all carbon/kevlar platform cost $4,500 Aus . That may have gone up a bit but still a finished boat would be nothing like $15,000 US.

Hell, I've got a Paper Tiger mould and there is 4.5sq metres of surface area per hull. Anyone out there wanting a $15,000US PT should give me a call. But it may be in their interest to do the numbers first.

Hey guys!

New rules on the F14 forum up for debate! We did listen to you and have reacted. Have fun!

Bob Curry

I fit that box! Thanks, Bob - looks like I'm sailin'!

Why not make it "open season" regarding design, weight, sail area, beam etc, but limit it to having an ISAF / pn number that is equal or within a very small tolerance. That way, a H14 sailor can chuck on big sails to compensate for being heavy, while it makes no sense to build an all-carbon boat down to very light weight, since all that means is a penalty in smaller sail area to bring the ISAf / PN number to within the tolerance. I like the "14ft X 14ft x 196sqf" rule proposed by someone earlier. WHo says it should only have 2 hulls ? Or that it can`t be 1 ? Just keep the numbers equal. That would be a REAL development formula class. Existing platforms could add racks if the 14ft beam proves to work. Quickly detachable for easy towing etc.
Make it the tinkerer`s class !

Oh, and hydrofoils too, please.

Cheers
STeve

Hi Stewart,
Members of my sailing club in WPB, Fla. built Paper Tigers 20 years ago. They are an ecxellent design and very fast for their size.
The problem here in the US is that home built boats and kit boats went out of style 20 years ago. People don't do that anymore. It takes too long.
What sailors immediately began talking about here in the US on this forum was older production boats, close to 14ft long with new and larger and hopefully faster sail plans. That is one way to go. Another route is a paraller road to the F16HP class and F18HT class etc. I think a choice is facing the group. The lower the price of the boat, the faster and larger the class will grow. If you have to build your own boat to be competitive, the class will grow much more slowly in the US.
Bill

I like the new rules!

This is a boat that can fit in an ordinary garage - so homebuilding is a realistic option. In this small size (and single handed) a 150 pound structural weight would not require the use of advanced materials and processes to achieve.

Really cool: NO TRAILER IS NEEDED! Maybe 4 hulls would fit on a roof rack?

About controlling cost - maybe have a limit on the cost of hulls used and time to build new? Option to buy the winners mast and sails for a set price at the end of the season?

-colin

If we were striving to keep the boats within a certain PN number, nobody would ever bother building a faster boat! True formula racing says "Within these guidelines, all boats are considered equal. First across the finish line wins." As stated before, I'd rather sail Portsmouth and sail fast, than build a boat that already has it speed limited by ratings or weight.
Under the current rules (which are still subject to change), a H14 owner can switch to H16 beams and mast, trapeze rack, and toss on a huge headsail to try and beat out the rest. There is a point where beam becomes excessive and the leeward hull is no longer able to support the loads placed on it. The 18sq. class found that 12' was about ideal for their length and sail-area.

Excellent! The things that would inspire me for this class are as follows:

a) I can feasably build one in my (future) garage.
b) I want a boat with too much sail area - but on a boat that's small enough that it won't kill me.

This one is definitly on my to-do list ... right after I build my garage and get my RX-7 restored.

Hi Sycho,

My intent was based on the other formula classes, but instead of limiting all aspects of design as they do, so that all boats end up being very similar & then have the same iSAF rating, let builders experiment with very open rules, but govern the development within EQUAL perormance rating, so everyone can build / put together what they think works or fits their budget, but they have the same performance as the next guy, so it`s like open class married to one-design. It acchieves the same thing as Formula classes (boats of similar PERFORMANCE racing against eachother.) The more traditional approach is to limit all aspects of the boat`s design, then all boats end up looking exactly alike, and in the end everyone migrates to the fastest type of boat in the class, much as has happened in F18 where most serious guys get Hobie Tigers. Full circle, we all go one-design racing all over again. I thought this class would be where guys could play with their ideas. Pegging a ISAF / PN number just controls cost.

Cheers
Steve

Bill,
I have no challenge with the road of old production boats forming a class.. But please dont tell me that it would take $15,000 to build a light fast 14 foot boat.. Its just not true..
Also please dont tell me Aquarius couldnt.. You definately have the design skills.. I guess you wouldnt be associated with a company which cant produce a product to world class standards.. Thus if AHCP has been doing this for the last couple of decades can then Im sure Aquarius can..

As for not homebuilding.. well then the US designers may have a niche to fill.. To design a home built kit that could be tortured ply, or even, perhaps a kit of already cut foam/glass (kevlar or carbon?) panels... The builder builds a frame and tapes the hull together.. Im not a good maine architect but you are.. Its all within your capabilities..

Hi Stewart,
The $15000 price comes from a new all carbon A cat with 2ft cut off each end. The A cat weighs 165pounds. The hull cross section of a 14ft cat could certainly be no smaller than an A cat because it has to support the same weight and it is 4ft shorter. The 14ft cat hulls would probably be a little fatter than the A cat hulls.
As far as a kit in the US goes: There is little to no market here. Few people build any type boats from scratch anymore. There is no nitch to fill here.
Bill

Phill,
That doesnt surprise me at all..

It might if you add all the hours of labor in R&D, and then mark the product up to make a living. I'm sure it would be way more than that if the company only made a handful of boats. Which is what I like so much about this new class idea. It seems to favor homebuilders greatly at this point.

Are there some books you would recommend Bill that would be good for someone such as myself who wants to build a strong and light boat themselves?

Let me jump in on what book to start with on building a light strong boat.

I would start with "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction"

From there you can try 1/8 scale tortured ply or strip plank models to see what it takes to build one and what shapes can be built.

Wests Systems on vacuum bagging is a good book

If you have friends in the Air Force try to get a copy of Composite Construction Repair Guide. This book has lots of pictures and some good basic guidelines.

A good article was something like Building a Unicorn A-Class Catamaran. If you find a copy, let me know I lost track of mine a couple of years ago.

Since building a boat is a hands on thing, I suggested building a couple of 1/8 and 1/4 scale models after you have read a few books

Phill on this list may be better to reply as he has just co-designed the "Blade"..

For a light platform one below the proposed class spec.. You have two paths..

1) Tortured ply.. As Carl suggested check out "Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction".. Also study the Tiapan 4.9 web site especially their tips for home building.. Dont forget Phill's home page.. Ply Tiapans when well built are very competative.. As Bill stated in a previous post

Yet they were designed 3-4 decades ago.. Hell they arent even tortured ply but stitch and glue chined ply design.. Yet as Phill also stated they are built to under 150 lb..

2)composite.. Check out the UK Cherub website (male mold) and Javelins.org and their Virtual Javelin project.. Not sure but also look up the International Moth web sites (The Aussie one used to have building tips).. Yes some Moths are still built in ply.. With perhaps a weight inrease from 10 kg up 17 kg hull weight..

I know of a home built International 14 that was built over a winter by three guys.. Working every second weekend.. 1 cm foam over a male mold.. 200 gm twill carbon outer skin with a second layer around the plate (knee damage when righting).. Inner skin was 100 gm twill.. The false deck was similar but the whole upper skin was 2X 200 gm and a mate layer.. With a complicated (and heavy) system to rake the centreplate from the trap.. All fittings ect.. It was 10 Kg under the class limit..

While we are thinking inside the bigger box, I think we might remember that the preconception of difficult compound curves can also be thrown out with short high volume hulls that still must exceed hullspeed. If the stealth bomber can be made from flat sheets... While true planing hulls are impractical, I suspect that the example of boat builders building these complex hull shapes for pleasure boats, only to find that the high powered engines lead to "... hull shape doesn't matter, you plane anyway" may be worth considering. Similarly a "lift assisted hull" shape can be very practical to build if it has horsepower (sail area and beam) and has to be short anyway. Catamarans are unique in having weight transfer related to driving force. Let's use these characteristics, and build a fun, sailing machine, in the spirit of this class.

Bill,
mate still pushing credability..
Still a long way between Phill's carbon/kevlar (foam?) Paper Tiger at $4500 AuD a platform and your $15,000 USD..

If one uses 11 meters of 200 gm twill per hull.. That is 2 layers outer & one inner.. Over a foam core.. Now a quick check of carbon prices you in the US can purchase 200 gm twill at $ 14.25 ..

i agree about the simple shapes having speed potential. phil bolger, master sharpie designer, writes that if 1/2 the included angle of the bow equals the angle of the slope of the bottom as it rises to meet the stem, the the waterflow is equalized on the sides and bottom with a minimum of turbulence and drag. anyway i like simple designs and hope to come up with some kind of lightweight boat for my H14 rig.