7 races per day in championship... Fair???

Wouter ... Why not in the class rules?

If you had a XXX championship and the SI's said... One race will count (because that is how the OA runs their weekend regatta)... ... Would the class be happy with this standard? ... or would they want the class standards spelled out for the host club. Heck...Classes reserve to set a wind speed min and max for events to manage the competition.(I remember a huge protest at F18 championship in Va). Why not the number of scheduled races per day. Max number allowed, Min number for championship, max number of events to count for the series.(indeed the tornado class rules do this)

As you look down a list of class champions...I would like to know that all met a certain standard to claim that title.

Seems to me you can't or shouldn't leave such a defining issue up to each OA.

In the end... the class ensures the integrity of it's traditions, history and quality by these decisions.

As always... if they are spelled out in writing... you don't have much standing to bitch later.

Because the model class rules for ISAF International classes exclude

event management

issues.

The proper way to deal with this is in a

Class Event Manual

- which is what the Hobie and many other classes use.

Class Rules cover the equipment and are part of the RRS.

Event Manual covers the requirements of major events and is not part of the RRS.

Thanks Matt

It would appear that the Tornado Class told ISAF to stuff it and have their international event requirements in their class rules appendix. (I assume being in the appendix does make it part of the RRS...)

http://www.tornado.org/uploads/documents...ppendix%20C.pdf

Basically
2 races per day, 10 to count for the championship with one throw. Lay day in the middle. My experience is that they want 1.5 hour races. I know for OCR's the schedule called for two or three tornado races (just like the lasers)

Could you point me to the Hobie event document.. I could not find it on the IHCA site.

The North American Event Manual is here.

Thanks Matt,

That's a hell of a resource, but it seems to leave all of these schedule issues up to the PRO and no need to publish the details before the event. Did I miss it? Does Hobie leave Worlds up to each national authority with reguard to championship standards from their national event manual?

You did not miss it, because it isn't there. The NA Hobie Class has has a tradition of

run as many as possible in a 5 day series

for as long as I can remember - certainly back to the provided boat days of the late 1980's.

The worlds is still in provided boats, and since they rotate after every race, the fatigue factor doesn't set in as much. The worlds has it's own

procedure manual

that's available upon request from the IHCA.

The most races I can remember after 5 days was 21 - that was the 2005 Hobie 17 NA's in Rehoboth.

I agree with Wouter (did I just say that???).

At the end of the day, we have to give the OA and especially the PRO some leverage to use their discretion. We are very careful who we choose to run these events, and no one gets to run a NAs without lots of experience, especially experience with our class.

Having said that, I would not be opposed to Bob's solution (4 per day), except that I would add a clause to allow one extra to make up or get ahead, to deal with Murphy. This would get the plan in writing, and everyone lives with it if the weather doesn't cooperate.

The majority of us racing in the Hobie classes don't want a planned lay day for the NAs. Nor do we want just two or three races per day, except maybe on the last day if we've gotten 4 in per day all week before that.

There's tons of other factors.

Mike

The problem is that we have given the PRO leverage and flexibility and it has been abused not just in Iowa but in RI as well. The

trust me

thing isn't going to work any more we need assurances and it needs to be in the NOR. I have confidence that this will happen.

I've already posted that I can live with a documented number of races per day in the NOR.

However, what happened in RI that could have been addressed by an NOR?

There was carnage on Day 1, but nothing that a limit on the number of races could have fixed.

As we learned in Tampa, a high wind limit cannot be easily determined by popular vote. On the low end of the wind, again, more issues of agreement (F18 event).

There have been several NAs where the conditions were such that 1/3 to 1/2 or more of the fleet was on the beach, yet races were continued to be started. Is this what you're trying to address? That would certainly take some creative writing, but is probably where one would have the most credibility with the

fair/unfair

concern.

Fair/unfair

is a slippery slope. Deciding to run races or not can create feelings (justified or not, and 99.999% of the time, NOT justified) of favoritism. Like I said, lots of factors to be considered.

Mike

I don't think the question is fair or unfair. The question is fun or no fun. In RI we had six races on the last day in freezing rain. Three would have been fine. After three on that day it started to be no fun.

One of the goals in running a NAC in the 16 fleet is to

qualify

people for spots at the worlds. Worlds events are not usually sailed in

light air venue's

The PRO should and probably does have that at the front of his mind as he is running the event.

I raced all 7 races that day, and during the 6th and 7th races, we were no longer competing, we were just

surviving

. However, that was day three of the event and we only had two races in the bag for the first two days.

Knowing the wind cast for Thursday and Friday, I understood and agreed with PU's decision to run the 7 races even tho it was exceedingly hard on the competitors. Even tho I didn't enjoy those last two races, I do not feel that PU

abused

his authority.

I would be opposed to a set of sailing instructions that specifies a maximum number of races to be run on any given day unless it gives the PRO the flexibility to make adjustments that take into account unforseen circumstances.

We as a Class Association, or as the Organizing authority, select PRO's based on their wisdom and experience, Let the PRO do his job as he sees fit without trying to micro manage him based on personal preferences or feelings. If he abuses his power and authority at a particular event, take his name off of the list of potential PRO's for future events.

I believe there were 5 races the last day in R.I
The last started late in the day in the pouring rain with the Champion way ahead and parked next to the RC boat asking why run another race.
Over the last 10 years there has been a 14 race average for the 16's.
So the 4 race a day with a fifth added when the daily average drops below 3 would be good with me.
When looking at the champions over the years, I don't see anyone that didn't deserve to win.
The trick is to keep guys like me coming back. I go for the friends and fun and hope for some moments on the water to remember.
Also to hook the first timers into planning for the following year on their drive home.
It's a real shame to read Karl's comments.
From what I've heard no one was real happy about what happened.
Let's get it fixed without throwing stones.

No problems, only opportunities.

I forgot all about Day 5... I was sitting on a mark boat by that point in the week (damaged crew on the aforementioned Day 1). Once the rain started, I lost count of the races. Lori's radio calls were pretty

funny

when rain started coming out of the electrical outlets in my RV...

Anyway, we need to find a balance between what the sailors say they want, and giving the PRO flexibility to make good decisions. Sailing in the rain is never fun, but litigating every

what if

would quickly become insane.

Mike

Setting a schedule with a maximum number of races is the norm in most classes. The Hobie class has been the exception. It does not become insane. What we have now is insane.

As I said earlier I'm sure we will find a solution.

(LOL: I've already complained to the class Chairman. Sorry Chris)

And your crew has already made her opinion completely clear on this matter to the new Race Director / PRO of the next events. <img src=

alt=

/>

I was referring to trying to litigate

fun

not just the number of races.

There are several exceptions listed in this thread as to how many races to run per day, depending on the wind, cold, rain, day of the week, weather on the remaining days, etc.

Do we state in the SIs to run 4-5 if it is warm and sunny, fewer if not?

Again, I agree that something in writing could help. But, the experience of the PRO should help even more here. If there are examples where this isn't happening, there's only so much you can do with an NOR. The real answer seems to be to work with the PRO, or make a change in that position.

Mike

I did a little research on the history of # of races and # of races per day (when I could figure it out) of the H-16 North Americans over the last 11 years:

2008 - 2/0/7/5/1 = 15 total
2007 - ?/?/?/?/? = 18
2006 - 4/4/2/2/5 = 16
2005 - 16 in 4 days (rotations), then 3 in finals = 11 raced
2004 - 3/3/?/?/? = 13
2003 - = 13
2002 - = 10 (Mega)
2001 - = 14
2000 - 5/3/4/1/4 = 17
1999 - = 11
1998 - = 16

The average number of races / event is 14.00
7 races in one day is apparently unprecedented, at least in the 16's.

We really didn't need the last race in 2006 in RI. It was 64 degrees, pouring rain and it was my worst race of the day. <img src=

alt=

/>

I'm good with 4 / 5 races a day (5 when you're behind schedule / nice day w/nice breeze).

Hi Matt
good info to know
But I still think a 45 minute race is too short for 75 boats.

Is their a huge consensus that a 45 minute race sort out the 75 boats by skill?
Asked anothe way... Is this the right number for a Hobie 16 race with that fleet size.?

If the races are too long and no positions are changing that's a waste of time. Conversely, if they are too short and luck and chance knock you back 5 or 10 places that you would have made up with a proper length race... that's bad as well.

Usually, you have longer races with larger fleets...Are you guys happy with the lenght? That would set the number of races per day as well.

Finally, a fixed number of races in the championship allows you to manage your risk in any race as you approach the end of the championship. Is this aspect of the game important to the 16 sailors?

In my opinion the course length has always been spot on at this event. That means long enough to make for a tactical beat (as in you can make more than two tacks), also long enough to avoid congestion at the windward mark. I think they tend to be more than 45 minutes. A fixed number of races would be nice but it's not at all critical.

I agree with Bob.

45 minutes is an example of the short end, typically they are more like 50-55 minutes (and it's amazing how consistent we can be). Anything longer than that just gets painful...

In my experience, no one races at the 16 events with a

managed risk

mentality. It's quite rare for the leader to sit out the last race.

Mike

Thanks Bob

It would seem that the class rank and file hasn't done much thinking about these issues.... at least recently.

Good luck getting a consensus in the fleet... It's hard to get cat sailors to focus and choose and the

just leave it up to the PRO guy

may be fine... but you don't have a lot of transparancy.

Hi, I don't usually post here, as I am afraid of you guys a little bit (I have lurked in some pretty heated discussions....)
Anyway, Bob has his point of setting a max number of races and whether or not thats a good idea for us, is yet to be seen or discussed among the Board of HCA and the RD. I would leave it to them, as they run the class (and always will)
BUT, I will say this: I sailed with my youngest son Jacob 9 years old and 75 lbs, who is usually a big sissy during any wind, and I loaded him up on pop tarts and pepsi throughout the 7 races that day, and I am a hack on my best day, but we did okay, and he actually had an awesome time the entire time we were out there. We stayed upright until the last upwind leg of the last race and even then he was laughing, yelling at me to hurry up and right the boat.
Hard to say whats right and wrong. Depends on if you ask Jacob or not......
Chris Wessels
New Whipping Boy, HCA

It's been a long time since we had 75 boats - and if we did, the fleet is usually split the first three days of the event.

2008 - Clear Lake, IA - 56 boats
2007 - Alameda, CA - 50 boats
2006 - Naragansett, RI - 56 boats
2005 - Ventura, CA - provided boats, 36 x 2 = 72 teams
2004 - Syracuse, NY - 71 boats, split fleets
2003 - Rehoboth, DE - 70 boats
2002 - Ft. Walton Bch, FL - 68 boats
2001 - Monterey, CA - 47 boats
2000 - Kingston, ON - 31 boats
1999 - Ft. Walton Bch, FL - 96 boats, split fleets
1998 - Rehoboth, DE - 63 boats

Mmmmmmm split fleets... another of the more contentious ideas.

Mike

I raced in Iowa too. And I listened to the weather report carefully which predicted that Wednesday (the 7 race day) was going to be much windier than Thursday. The forecast said that Wednesday was going to blow 15-20 with gusts to 30 (mph). On Thursday it was supposed to be 10-15 with gusts to 20. That being the case, I don't understand the excuse that PU thought Thursday's weather was going to be

dismal.

Oh yeah, I was also told after the sailing on Wednesday that PU

lost count

of the number of races he'd run and thought he had only run 5. What a load of crap.
It has been my experience that PU is always on a power trip. I also remember doing 6 races on the last, and truly dismal, day of the 2006 NAs in RI. Having 4 as the maximum number of races makes the most sense, and I see absolutely no down side to it at all. We want to have the biggest number of competitors on the starting line as possible...everyone should feel welcome to NAs, and when we start losing sailors we need to fix it. At least 10 people told me they would think twice about coming to another North American after those 7 races on Wednesday. And Pat Bisesi is truly wise in his statement,

The Nationals should crown a champion and make everyone else feel like one.

As far as I am concerned, that is the Hobie Way.
E. Cleveland

I raced in Iowa also.This was my first ever 16 nationals and I had a great time.I also agree that 7 races is just too many.When I came off the Lake I also lost track of the number of races and thought we only had 5.I would love to come to another nationals and if they have 7 races again so be it but if I had my preference 4 would suit me fine.

We just finished the 17/18/Tiger event in Harrison in august.... we put in the SI's 'maximum of 20 races will be run'... 3 days we had four, 1 day three and one day 5 races... we were fortunate to have windy conditions for the whole week.. double trapped every day for some parts of each race... also a few big holes of no wind in the water.. i found a few.. unfortunately we had rain everyday as well... except the sun came out for the awards banquet.. (and it's been shining ever since.... )
My point being.. 20 races over 5 days seemed like a good number.... but their should probably be a maximum of 5 races in a day... regardless of past/present/future weather conditions... 5 hours on the water without a break is plenty... and keeps most people able to race the next day.

That nite I literally crawled into the hot bathtub as the 7 races nearly crippled me due to a harness problem. Next day, wind was stronger and should have killed me, but no problem! I had the time of my life, and hope it can happen again on the next one. Some of us live for the punishment of 20+ wind days. My dear mother would just say, 'quit your whining!'

5 hours on the water without a break is plenty...

Just beat me to my next point (and this is meant to be forward-looking)...

As Matt has said, there are times when more than 5 races might be needed. Such as, Day 1 has no wind and only 1 race, Day 2 is perfect, and the forecast for Days 3-5 is a hurricane (or something along those lines).

So, the OA and PRO would probably want to run as many races as humanly possible on Day 2. But, if the NOR puts a mandate on 4-5 per day, you'd only get 6 races for the week.

However, if everyone knows going into it that 6-7 are preferred for Day 2, and a lunch break is used, that might be the best solution in that case.

So, we're back full circle. There's only so much you can litigate without unforseen negative consequences, because Mother Nature will not be tamed.

At the end of the day, we need to be able to rely on sound judgement from our PROs.

Of course, that judgement needs to include listening to the OA and Class reps, as we are trained by US SAILING to do.

Mike

I think sound judgement by the PRO is the way to go with some official guidence in the NOR.

There has to be room for changes depending on what Mother Nature throws at you. I recall running 6 races on Tuesday at the F18's in Carlyle. Great wind. Plenty of time to run it. Lot's of people bitched about the sixth race but the forecast for Wed. was 0-5mph so I wanted to get lots of racing in. As it turned out we did manage to get 3 races in on Wed. in drifter conditions. Then Thurs and Friday we had great wind with the last race being too much for most teams.

I think a maximum of 6 is fine with a goal of 4 a day with a lunch break. A maximum and goal of 19 total races for a 5 day event. Breakdown if the weather were perfect would be 4,4,4,4,3 with no races started after 2pm on Friday. However if you look at the forecast and it's a beautiful day on Monday put 5 races in.

Of course how many times have we headed to the beach to eat lunch when the conditions suddenly became perfect only to head back out after lunch and have the wind die or a storm roll in. You can't win. That's another good reason to have guidance for the PRO but not any hard and fast rules. That way with a good PRO he can anticipate the issues and perhaps run an extra race before lunch if it looks like the weather might turn bad.

At the N20 NA's this year we were worked over by the RC. He was running everyone else course 1's while we started first and got a course 2. We would finish and clean up things and fix problems and then the horn would blow for the next race. We didn't even have time for a potty break which we found a little tough. A 1/2 hour break after the second race would be nice if the conditions are under 15 knots. When it's over 15 knots I'd rather be racing or on shore. Sitting on the boat in more than 15 is hard work in itself.

The other problem is toward the end of the event a PRO doesn't feel like they can go in early if there isn't clear guidance to do so. The PRO doesn't want to show favortism toward any competitor so he will run races according to the schedule.

One nice thing if they leave you on the water for lunch would be to let folks know that you are breaking for a few minutes and post on the course board

LUNCH NEXT START 2:00PM

That way we all know what's going on. With the short 5 minute sequence we never get a chance to rest because we have to stay close around a lot of boats and be ready at a moments notice to start the race. If you put up a sign then first finishers might even go to the beach for a few minutes to take a break.

I think keeping it fun for everyone is a good goal. I don't think scaring people away from a Nationals is a good policy. We no longer have the numbers to support an attitude where we cater to the top teams. The Nationals needs to continue to draw numbers to stay finacially on solid ground. When you start getting 10 boats at a Nationals it becomes very hard to get anyone interested in hosting it.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005