A cat vs F-16

Why can't you accomplish glued in stability with a removable beam along these lines. The beam would slide into a permanently fastened receptor on the hull, it would be supported from all sides but could be bolted in so that the beam could be removed if needed.

If it was a composite beam the end might even have a very slight taper which would further enhance the fit.

Seems like a relatively simple solution of accomplishing both goals...that is the stiffest possible mounting while still allowing the beams to be removed.

Regards,
Seeker

Indeed,

We sought to allow such solutions in the F16 class, that is why we require "the ability to be disassembled without destructive means" and why we didn't outlaw glueing directly.

Wouter

I need to buy an F16 and then glue it together and argue with the Woutmiester on the definition of "destructive means."

I still think thats a silly rule.

Most catamarans are build so they can be disassembled. So why legislate something thats a minority and wont really impact the class?

By the way, I'm in favor of less rules, not more in any class (or government)

What's to be gained from these upgrades, for the average sailor?

OK, our situation, 1,000 of miles from oceans, all inland lakes, predominately medium to heavy air, big wide open lakes where the white caps roll and powerboats too! Short distance between and steep waves prevail.

Are these conditions tolerable for an A cat or F-16? The H16 really hobby horses under these conditions, obviously the TheMightyHobie18 is better, the H20 is best, but all have much more displacement. Does the bouyancy of these new hull designs affect/help performance in the described conditions?

Hell, why not! Everybody else has!

I'm willing to take the chance!

Kevlar adds a very lightweight but strong layer of protection to the hulls, mostly for impact resistance.
Pentex is one of the better laminates in modern sails. Two times the stretch resistance of Dacron and slightly better UV resistance.
The bigger downhaul system makes it easier to use than a lower purchase system and may allow you to apply more downhaul because of that. One of the most important things in modern catamarans is the need and ability to depower your boat when the wind comes up so as to keep it controllable and keeping as much forward momentum as possible. Pulling the downhaul flattens the sail and spills the excess wind off of the top of the fathead sail. More downhaul = more control and faster speeds in bigger winds.
The shroud adjusters allow you to tighten or loosen your stays without having to take the pins out. This makes it much easier to adjust your rig for wind conditions, sail plan, and crew weight.
If you are going to be racing at all and you can swing it all of those options will make your boat a better investment and a better sailing craft.
Good luck,

Bill,

You making a rather silly assesment here.

Both A-cats and F16's are nothing like most catamarans, you after all you should know that.

A large portion of the A-cats are glued together, if not all new A-cats sold. Doing so with F16's would have seriously impeded, if not totally halted, the establishment of the F16 class.

It is one of the best rules we ever included. The builders were quite happy with it.

Wouter

That exactly the right describtion for it. Average sailor (or rather average racer). For the all out obsessed race all upgrades are attractive, but for the more average joe truly only a smaller selection is.

-1- Kevlar hulls (US$700)

I have it from various sources that kevlar hulls are the best lightweight hulls in the way of abuse resistance. One such source has been working professionally on A-cats fro many many years; a second source was actually the first builder to have included kevlar in their boats; also a guys with heaps of experience in boat building, boat repair and development.

From personal experience with working with Kevlar I know that the stuff is insanely resistant to rupture and damage. You can't break or tear pieces off; something you can do with plain glass and carbon. Carbon as a matter of fact can even act quite brittle, glass will bend and flex a little, Kevlar beats both at this game.

With lightweight hulls to balancing act is always between strength, stiffness and abuse resistance of the hulls. I PERSONALLY feel that kevlar has the right balance here resulting in a lightweight hull that is sufficiently stiff and more then sufficient abuse resistant, if there is such a thing as sufficient abuse resistance ! Of course more resistance is always welcome.

-2- Pentex sails (US$325)

The other post by Lance covers this pretty well. In addition is looks good as well, modern. Having said this I believe that a high quality dacron is not to be discarded too quickly either. HQ dacron will produce very long lasting sails with ample speed. For recreational sailing dacron could well be the better choice. For racing Pentex is just a little more promising although I have gotten my butt kicked by HQ dacron sails plenty of times. We are talking final bits of a few % performance here. Important if you are a top of the line racer, not nearly as important if you are a sub topper or a joined recreational sailor/club racer.

In addition, I feel pentex has the right amount of sensitivity to trim without being overly sensitive, something I feel other modern sailcloths have, like monofilm. You want the sail to stretch a little. No stretch will again make optimal tuning and trimming very difficult.

-3- 1:12 Internal downhaul system (US$100)

The best downhaul system I ever used especially when solo sailing. It is fitted internally in the mast so your mast looks really clean and the blocks/lines are well protected from the weathering. The last will maintain optimal operation through hard use and long times. Doing repairs on it (much less often then other downhaul systems) is actually not a difficult or time consuming task. You can take the whole system out, do your thing and put it back in inside 60 to 90 minutes, that is when working at a normal relaxed pace. But I can assure you that this system will only need very very little maintenance or repairs. One in every few years at the most.

-4- Stay masters.

I have got a better system on my own boat, but the next best thing are the stay-masters. In principle the staymasters allow you to quickly adjust shroud tension and mast rake with the sails up and the boat fully rigged. This way it is very easy to adjust these settings between races or when switching from racing solo to doublehanded or in reverse. For recreational sailing you can leave mast rake as it is, but for some highly competitive racing the adjustment of the mast rake can just get that extra bit of balance into the boat and win you several boatlengths. And of course this upgrade is darn cheap, you can't buy staymasters for such low cost as aftermarket items.

Wouter

Thanks Lance and Wouter!

Now I just have to shake my piggy bank and she how much falls out!

Ok guys, I'm gettin' ready to call Matt and place an order. Anything else I should know before I smash my piggy bank?

remember the midget discount!!

What midget?

btw- I'm going to take your earlier advice and visit a few "private" sailing locations just to see if there is any public access.

I may take you up on that!

Just tell him Robi sent you. LOL

welcome to the group

Would this be a good time for a plug for the Gulfport (Fla) F-16 and A Class Invitational? April 1 & 2.

http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/id31.html

Ed

I would say that that is definately the case :

It was just posted on the F16 forum that :"... looks like we are going to have somewhere between 6 to 8 F16's ... I have just got confirmation that Hollis Caffe is attending with his Taipan. That is 6 that I know are coming. "

The F16's will race in a mixed singlehanded/doublehanded fleet without any handicap calculations, so the order on the finish line is also the final order for the points. Just as the F16 class is intended to be raced when not part of a larger open class fleet.

I'm sure the A's will have 10 or more boats as in the previous years. Right now 6 A-cats are listed as registered. More will certainly register in the weeks to come.

It is looking to be a very enjoyable event again. Just like the former 2 times it was held.

Wouter

I thought that when most sailers "shake the piggy bank" all they got was cobwebs?

If anyone has better ideas...I'm listening.

There's plenty of room for cobwebs now!

Does anyone have rigging tips for the F-16 solo? On the H-17 I kept my rig noticably looser than other 17's. That resulted in very good performance to weather, but dismal downwind performance.

What are the tactics when sailing in a mixed fleet of A's and 16's?

Is there an established etiquette when sailing near A's?

In the past, I mostly just ignored boats other than my class, and kept clear air.

How much for 2 extra feet of hull?

There's one in every crowd!

> Is there an established etiquette
> when sailing near A's?

As it happens there is: stay behind them.

Pete, Be nice and wave as they blow by up wind.

Theres more than one in this crowd, after all I didnt even mention midgets.

What is this thing with midgets!!

Tad just seems to have got it into his head that you can only sail F16 if you're small.
He is of the 'bigger is better' view. But we all know that it's not size that matters - it's how you use what you have!

Yeah right - keep drinking the Wouter cool-aid.

Size only matters when you are talking about the direct correlation between water line length and speed, or the fact that catamarans suffer more due to added weight (crew weight) and a longer water line would support added weight better. Or that longer is better in waves, especially short steep waves we most likely sail in close to shore. And lets also remember that all cats could use more bow upwind and down.

So yes size does matter. But so does weight. And right now the F16 wins because it is light. But watch out for the lightweight 20 footer than can be single and double handed, has a spin and is way faster than a F16, and can carry weight better and is better in waves than a f16 could ever hope to be.

Sorry to rain on the F16 love fest, but it's not the be all, end all and size does indeed matter.

Etiquette: As in: Protocol or Manners

Since I sail with crew, Protocol dictates that I have the crew go into distraction mode with the A sailor, especially if it is Lucky Duck. Like: Oh look an Eagle, or how was your day honey, or hey your chutes dragging in the water. As for the manners side of this, well perhaps our manners would apply if we were ever a lap ahead, however this has not been my experience to date. Maybe this season we'll get the chance to be a lap ahead and will show some restraint. FEAR the Duck!

Hmmm, I thinking that throwing a beer to the A sailor might help.

Pic is of Lucky Duck Showing his form, Nice!