A cat vs F-16

I all dependents on the specific makes of the catamaran. I know of an 18 sq. (also an 18 foot boat) that had trouble sheeting in the spi and I know the I-17 guys overhere changed back to a single forestay. My bridle wires are much further back then those on a FX-one, so I could be fine while the FX-one won't be. There is no general rule that predicts who will have trouble and who won't, dependents on specific implementation.

Also getting a longer pole is not always a solution especially not on an A-cat whose daggerboards were never positioned with a spinnaker in mind. You can upset the balance of the boat.

I'm sure some designs could be in the clear. Nevertheless this problem can arise and has arisen on several boats.

It is definately a thing to keep in mind.

Wouter

That darn F16 will !

Got more then enough hours clocked in the open water by now. Actually only 3 times a year I sail on a lake. All other times (20 to 30 per year) I sail on the north sea and have to go out through the surf. And I do really mean ; A surf.

The jib does help sailing through the surf as you can steer with your sail better. (sheet in with the jib and sheet out with the main to bear away, the opposite to luff up. With a selftacker you just set the jib relatively tight and just sheet the mainsail in and out to head up and down.

I'm riding my hulls onto the beach when the surf is up. I get off as soon as I can after the hulls touch bottom, but I'm not especially careful. By then again, I have timber-epoxy hulls; no worries about making dents.

Wouter

I'm another F16 wannabe that placed his order right after Tradewinds in January. The European Blades are being finalized and I've been told that my boat should be built by the end of March.

I like that decision. I am going to have to move to FL.

Matt is going to be very busy this year between Blade and XJ production. Seems like when I first talked to him last Nov, he was working on a 4 to 6 week delivery - that may have changed, though. I don't want to speak for him.

alright... the next boat I get will be a Blade.. anyone wanna buy a 6.0?

I think it would be a blast to take the blade out solo... taking the 6.0 out solo would be badness (just let the thing sink when it goes over

Pete:

Just got some info from Matt I will email it to you. I may just get the A2 AND a Blade if the money come in OK. They have made some nice changes to the A2 from what I hear. You can now raise the daggerboards with a line. Send me the video in email attachment. You have my email. Are you getting the Kevlar hulls and carbon beams and rudders? Guys are the Pentex sails class legal? I have them on my Hobie 17 (squaretop and reacher) and love them.

Doug Snell
Hobie 17
Soon to be Nacra A2 and maybe Blade too.
www.tcdyc.com

I think the a guys are using carbon sails aren't they? I don't think there are any real limitations on sail cloth in A cats.

I was talking about the Blade. It has an option for Kevlar hulls and carbon beams and rudders. Also a option for Pentex sails.

Doug

Are you the Powerball winner that has yet to come forward?

F16 sail cloth is not restricted. My understanding is that the VM Blade carbon upgrade refers to the foils (daggers/rudders) and tiller assembly/crossbar, not the beams. The boat weighs in a few kgs (2 or 3) above minimum, so the buyer can adjust what he/she sees fit to change. I guess carbon beams could be an aftermarket option.

An un-advertised option for the Blade are the turrets for a 50 caliber found on this VM model: http://www.vectorworksmarine.com/military-article.asp

No Powerball, just some big money coming from other things.

Here is what I got from Matt. It says carbon beams and there is a Pentax sail option. What are stocks? Does that mean carbon mast?

Doug

Vectorworks Marine Inc.

Blade F16 price list Model Year 2006

BLADE F16

Complete Blade F16 Includes, full F16 compliant ready to race boat with: White NPG Iso gel coat
exterior finish, Light weight stiff foam core sandwich construction with fiberglass reinforced
vinyl ester laminate, Large diameter aluminum beams, Fiberglass foils, Composite and alloy stocks
Wing section mast, Colored radial cut main and jib in Race Dacron, Single color spinnaker, Mid-
pole snuffer system with single line control. Full battened jib, Self tacking jib system
Top of the line bearing blocks on all control lines and Premium cordage.

USD $12,900.00

Available Options

Kevlar hulls $700.00
Carbon upgrade (Rudders, boards, stocks and cross bar) $390.00 (When available)
Pentax sail material (Main and Jib) $325.00
Colored Hulls $300 In Stock

Contact factory. Some colors in stock, special order would be $500
Optional 12:1 internal downhaul system $100
Sta-Master shroud adjustment system $35
Trailer (Galvanized steel w/ 12" tires, forward cradles and rear double rollers ) $1,075.00
Composite cradles with IO carpet surface molded for Blade hulls $200.00 Set of 4

$110.00 Pair (Fore or aft)

New for 2006 we have redesigned our lamination system to provide a proprietary contour molded core system for the b
providing core around virtually the entire hull surface. We have fabricated fixturing that creates, in the molding process
hull halves that is more robust and lighter in weight than the traditional taped hull halves. This weight savings has
then been used to drastically increase the density of the core being used to manufacture the boats, significantly improve resistance to denting. The end result of this development is that we have created a hull that weighs the same as before stiff, and damage tolerant.

I think any of you who have looked at new cats realize what an incredible performance VALUE that is.

other than weight, is there a significant difference between the carbon and glass boards etc?

the carbon board should have better stiffness. Flex is bad.

what about durability and the ability to fix dings on your own?
I want one, darn it, but then again, I also want a http://corsairmarine.com/1CorsairSprint750.htm

and in my dream life a corsair 36

They came forward today, 8 meatpackers from Lincoln Nebraska.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=ayV.JsBw8dwo

The funny thing is that most lottery big money winners end up worse off than they started.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-11-27-lottery-win_x.htm

Doug,

You are really expecting a money ship to come in ! 2 new boats at the same time, WOW ! Personally I would just settle on one, but then I have to safe up for years when buying new toys like this.

The Blade is able to have this system as well. The hull moulds have specialized sections in de daggerboard wells to allow such a system to be fitted. I don't remember whether it is fitted as standard or not. The first Blade to the Netherlands had this system fitted. It is copied from the Taipans (4.9 and A's) which have this system as well.

For the F16's; all sail cloths are legal and therefor also Pentex. F16 class decided not to follow the Tornado and F18 class in limiting the use of sail cloths. In this respect we follow the A-cat class and we will continue to allow all sail cloths; as the A-cat class is expected to do.

I hear alot of good comments on the Kevlar hulls. It gives the lightweight hulls like those of the Blade extra impact resistance and pretty much makes them comparable to hulls of much heavier boats.

Carbon rudders ; nice upgrade. I've seen the rudders that are supposed to go onto the new Blades, I've held the prototypes in my hands and I liked the answers to the indepth questions I asked. I'm not allowed to tell to much about these new developments, so I won't. Matt, vectorworks and the European agent are the official contact points for this. However I'm going to tell that these rudders have quite alot of A-cat class development incorporated in them. As a matter of fact you will be hard pressed to tell them apart.

Carbon beams; I have not heard of this development at all. Are you sure that carbon beams are an option ? I'm sure everything can be done to your boat when you lay extra money on the line but carbon beams is not really something the F16 builders and buyers showed much interest in. In the way of F16 sailing there is not much advantage in having carbon beams neither in platform stiffness nor in weight. Performance difference between alu beams and carbon beams are expected to be completely negligiable when looking at the Blade F16. You can't glue the carbon beams to the hull per F16 rules and this makes carbon beams a whole lot less advantagious. This rule was included in the F16 class rules as otherwise we would have serious troubles selling and shipping the boats internationally. At 2.5 mtr width the F16's will not fit into a container when assembled (glued together); at 2.3 mtr the A-cat can only just be transported assembled this way but only at increased international shipping costs.

Carbon mast, that is allowed in the F16 class and I'm sure on can be had when so desired and when you are willing to pay for the upgrade difference. Nearly all A-cat mast building development is directly applicable to F16 masts as the two classes use the same general mast design and mast/sail behaviour. The crosssection are both of ellipical rather then teardrop shaped form. Both use the flexibility of the top part as an important trimming feature. The two rigs are actually quite related.

Wouter

Doug,

The spec doesn't say carbon beams - the beams are ali.

The carbon option gives you "Rudders, boards, stocks and cross bar" ,

Stocks are the bit that the rudder head pivots in and the 'crossbar' means the tiller bar.

It's still a helluva lot of boat for the money - a really good package at a really good price.

I'd definately go for the Pentex sails (the jib will be fine as it's fully battened) and the Carbon upgrade.

You are getting pretty specific with the rules if this is in the rules, Wouter. What if want to glue my F16 up after I take delivery? Lots of guys "seat" their aluminum beams with epoxy and then bolt them down so the platform is stiffer. How are you going to police this? Make every arrive your regatta's un-assembled? Any extra goop in the beam socket and you're Dq'd?

Are the rest of the rules that picky?

I think vectorworks marine by now has quite some order list they need to work down. The European boats batch should be nearing completion by now if they want to make the delivery date. My info had the European boats production batch scheduled at late januari.

There are still a few US orders ahead of you now, but on the other hand building in batches is very attractive economically. I expect Vectorworks marine to save up all US orders over the last months and the next few weeks and then build them all in one go. As far as I can tell all US buyers heard the same delivery date (late march) and this seems to support the assumed batch job production schedule of above.

Wouter

100% correct. The tiller cross bar is carbon, not the main/rear beams. The tiller extension is a regular Ariba stick, I think.

I wonder who the dope was that wrote this "the new Corsair Sprint 750 takes performance and fun to the next level: it offers all the performance and flexibility of a beach catamaran with none of the annoyances. It won't go into irons, it will tack and go to weather as well as or better than any monohull (and certainly better than any beach cat),"

At least they put a hot chick in the photos.

Bill,

There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

The seating of the beams with epoxy or whatever is NOT considered "glueing" by the F16 class.

Actually all F16 builders use the technique of seating the beams to make the beam/hull joint as stiff as possible. This is actually a good procedure to get the best performance out of the Alu beam setup. We consider this a critical point in the F16 designs. Of course when the beams are seated, the bolts are still needed to secure the beams to the hulls.

Glueing is the technique where the only joint between the beam and hull is the glue and once cured this joint is permanent. In effect this means that the boat can not be dissassembled without taking out a hacksaw or chainsaw and seperating the two parts by destructive means.

The F16 rules state that the beams, hulls and trampoline must be able to be disassembled by non-destructive means. It doesn't state that it must be easy to do so. Effectively this means that seating is therefor allowed, glueing is not. A good knock will release a seated beam when the bolts are undone and right afterwards it can be fitted again in order to make the boat ready to sail. Of course a permanently glued beam can't be dissassembled.

I don't expect any policing issues. Glued in beams are not too difficult to spot, there are tell tale differences in beam landing design, and besides these boats can't be shipped to larger international events anyway as the boat simply won't fit into a shipping container when permanently assembled.

This is also the reason why the builders won't design or supply boats with glued beams; shipping them to the customer is just pain in the neck if not ridiculously expensive.

If think this class rule is actually one of the better F16 rules; it really keeps the cost of an F16 down to a level that is really competitive, without holding back the design in performance in any significant way.

Wouter

Stocks = rudder castings, the things that take the rudder boards themselfs and secure them to the sterns and link them up to the tiller bar. Of course you can't cast carbon so the name had to be changed into something else. The Aussies called these things stocks and so we started calling them that way too.

See below a picture of the AHPC carbon rudder and carbon stock as used on the Taipans. The Blade design uses a similar design. I believe it has been redesigned for the 2006 Blade, so it is different from the early carbon stock option that were delivered with the Blade (2005 and prototypes), Same applies to the rudderboard itself.

Wouter

AFAIK Wouter, these things have been called rudder stocks for many, many years by all english speaking nautical nations.....

My ideal order would look like this :

standard boat (US$ 12,900) with the following upgrades :

Kevlar hulls (US$700)
Pentex sails (US$325)
1:12 Internal downhaul system (US$100)
Sta-Master shroud adjustment system (US$35 ) Because this upgrade is just so darn cheap.

Total; US$ 14,000

They other options are cool, but not really necessary.

I've seen the new alu stocks up close and I would be more then happy to have those on my boat. Carbon dagger- and rudderboards; the difference in performance to plain glass will be really small if any. You really have to be a very skilled sailor to notice the difference at all.

Wouter

There is not much weight difference at all between the two setups. The gelcoat and foamcore make up a large part of the overall weight anyway and these are exactly the same in both version.

An F16 daggerboard will come in at about 1.2 kg = just shy of 3 lbs. As comparison, F18 daggerboards are typically 3 to 4.5 kg (= 7 to 10 lbs)

An F16 rudderboard will come in at about 1.0 kg = just over 2 lbs.

An F16 ruddersetup (alu stock) will typically come in at 5 kg (11 lbs) including 2 stocks, 2 rudderboards, tiller bar and tiller extension. In order to compare, an F18 rudder setup is about 10 - 12 kgs (22-26 lbs).

The real difference between carbon boards and glass boards is the lateral stiffness of the board. This translates into a more crispy feel when steering. It is hard to quantify this difference, but it is certainly not huge. If you have the budget for it then this upgrade won't hurt you, but when pressed this is the first upgrade that I advice anybody to drop.

I personally have the carbon rudder boards and the glass daggerboard. If I would buy anew then I'm not sure whether I would buy the carbon upgrades again.

I hope this helps

Wouter

Should be about the same. Most is just gelcoat repairs and that is the same for both versions. Real laminate repair is beyond most amateurs anyway and even that is not much different between both versions.

Wouter

I've felt the difference between the two foam cores myself. Some development that went into the 2006 Blade F16 model were done here in the Netherlands. I can tell you that the difference is significant. Even the bare foam can't be dented without using a tool like a hammer. After adding the Kevlar (or glass) layer it should be more resistant still.

Vectorworks Marine made a good call here. They could have used the weight savings to produce a boat that would be under minimum class weight, but then you would just have to carry lead under the dolphinstriker to compensate. It is much better to use these weight savings to maximize abuse and dent resistance.

Wouter

Is Vectorworks using the same foam in the XJ and the Blade?

I believe they are using Corecell in the XJ.

Its good stuff.

http://www.spsystems.com/solutions/... cell_A_Foam.pdf#search='corecell%20foam'

Welcome to the club. Make sure you remain in contact with the A-cat as well as the F16 guys, you can learn heaps of trim tips from the A-catters. Alot of tuning for the A will work on the F16 as well as the two rig are closely related.

Actually the orginal designer of the Blade F16 sails his Blade solo ALOT. He really wanted it to be a good singlehander in addition to being a competitive doublehander for this very reason. He really took the double use of it into account when designing, from the ground up.

Wouter