A cat vs F-16

See http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup

This is all my opinion, not based on any empirical evidence. F16 class membership is growing world wide. US class membership growth is attributed to Taipan sailors converting their rigs to F16 and the addition of a US based F16 builder. The largest concentration of US F16 sailors are located in the Southeast, the home of the US Blade F16 builder (Titusville, FL).

In my opinion, the next two years will be critical for the F16 class in the US. The availability of boats (new and used) will increase dramatically/percentage-wise, but will it happen soon enough to take advantage of the current high level of interest in the F16 concept? I hope so.

17 boats between Florida and Alaska. Its a start but you have not even reached the 18HT level yet. I think all the hype is a little premature.

It is not prerequisite to join frapper prior to the delivery of your boat , but you are correct - there is a lot of work to be done in the US. I think the F16 concept is a solid one, it will take time. IMHO, the biggest problem is the lack of used boats that are available. Hopefully, churn will take place over the next few years and people can get involved without going "new".

wow,

I can be a little critical of the F16's from time to time but this guy is just a douchebag about it.

You're one cool dude....:rolleyes:

Churn on, boys, churn on.

Think what you want about Wouter, but if it were not for him, nobody would have ever heard about the F16 Class.

He believes in the class and has been willing to take the heat for being unrelentingly and unapologetically aggressive in promoting it and has not given up.

Other classes, both one-design and formula, should be so fortunate as to have someone like that as a catalyst.

I have my differences with him and his policies and politics and class rules, but the bottom line is that he has put the F16 on the map. Except for the A-Class and the Formula 18 Class, I don't see anybody else doing that to promote their class.

In fact, I'm kind of embarrassed that we don't use this web site more to promote the Wave Class, which can take the babyboomers into a whole new realm of competition.

Churn on, boys & girls, churn on

There actually over 30 F16 boats in the USA now and soon we add the 12 boats for the 2007 Alter Cup to that. I say the future is looking pretty rosy. The fact that F16 boats are "making class" at recent events like Tradewinds and showing up in race results regulary proofs that we have passed the 18HT class by considerable margins. Haven't seen any of those in any listing lately (as in last few years)

F16 class overhyped ? Lets first see when we'll have an Alter Cup event on supplied A-cats, shall we ?

Now call me rude, but would Vectorworks Marine have taken on building affordable Bim A-cats if it hadn't first started on Blade F16's ?

F16 is on its second season as a Florida Harken bouy race class, still waiting on the A-cat equivalent. That 35 boat A-cat regatta sure was impressive, but are you catching my drift here ?

It seems to me that the A-cat class and F16 class are pretty symbiotic. If not similar in many ways.

Hell, our 3rd Gulfport Yacht club A-cat/F16 invitational event is coming up in 4 weeks time. Previous editions were in 2004 and 2005. As always some sailors are switching class for this event because their personal situation is favouring that. We'll see one F16 sailor do this event on an A-cat this time and 2 A-cat sailors do it on a F16. It looks to become another fun event this year; sailors were very positive about the earlier versions.

I do see the humour in a little smack talking between the A-cat and F16 classes, but the humour seems to have left the discussion lately and a feeling of resentment and fear seems to surface. I don't really understand exactly why and I don't want to stimulate it.

So let me be the one to say that I'm thrilled to have the A-cats and to see their excellent growth in the USA. I'm confident that they will give alot of enjoyment to their owners and provide an excellent extention of the cat sailing scene in general. I'm thankful for the existance and succes of this class.

Now, I think it is time to let this F16 thread slide into history. Time for new topics.

Wouter

Personally I'm looking to the 2007 Alter Cup boats to provide such an opportunity in 13 months time. In addition I expect a few more Taipan sailors to upgrade as well, putting some great "value for boat" secondhanders on the market. .

Wouter

Wouter

I didnt catch your drift Wouter, can you be more specific? I dont understand your veiled references.

Also, why does there need to be an "equivalent?"

The Bristol A Fleet runs races every Tuesday night and they get good turnout. And they will probably see at least 2 new boats on the line this year (mine and one other) They probably get 8-12 boats per week, with very talented guys like Ben Hall, Lars Guck, Phil Kinder, etc, etc, etc.

Got any F16 "equivilants" to those guys? The list of extremely good cat sailors (like Charlie Ogletree, Olympic Silver medalist) that call the A cat their boat is long and deep.

Bob Hodges said it earlier, he described the level of experience that sails in the A class, and it includes Olympic medalists, World Champs, national champs... You can't ignore that kind of talent in a class. And you shouldn't brush it off with veiled references.

The F16 is interesting and I'm impressed with the level of response this discussion has gotten from guys that are now F16 converts. Vectorworks predicts 20 boats this year in the US. Thats all good, but dont overstate it.

Bill

Wouter, did you have too much coffee before you wrote this? Or was your blood sugar low?

Alter Cup is a two person race. A cat is a single hander.

Also, you may be surprised with the feedback from the Alter Cup. You cant and shouldnt expect everyone to love the F16 after the Alter Cup. Remember that many of the Alter Cup sailors prefer i20's and F18's. So dont be shocked if you dont get the kind of reaction you are predicting.

I'm speaking from experience here with the HT's at the Alter Cup, I asked one very welll known, i20 and F18 sailor how he liked the HT and he referred to it as a "good little go cart." I thought that was an odd response at the time and didnt understand why he didnt love the HT. But later, it seems perfectly normal for a guy who has tons of hours on a i20. Just some friendly advise here, understand not everyone is going to love it and I actually think an Alter Cup can do more harm than good for a new growing class, because the sailors have not formed a committment to the boat that buying one requires, so they are very free to comment without committment to the boat. That can be unpredictable.

Bill

Bill,

Why don't we let this thread slide into the archieve ?

We are now just repeating ourselfs.

In reference to your questions I say :

I'm not fearful of the Alter Cup 2007 at all. I don't expect the participants to suddenly all love the F16 at all (as you put it). Why would I ? F16 is not for everybody and I always said that. I'm actually expecting both more of the "midget discount" comments as well as positive ones. The biggest advantage of the Alter cup event is that it puts another 12 boats into the US market together with the related promotion. And if the boat is extremely well received by entrenched I-20 and F18 sailors then that is just extra. Our main target are the other sailors anyway. In addition the HT example is flawed as it failed on other factors then its Alter Cup event. Now please no more straw man arguments anymore.

With respect to big names in the various classes I would like to say that I don't feel the need to engage you (or any other A-cat sailor) each time in a name-calling contest; knowing that I can. Example ; Daniel v. Kerckhof is 2 times F16 event winner from Australia who loves his Taipan boat and scored 6th in 2004 F18 worlds and 10th in 2005 F18 worlds.

See here a picture of Micheal Cook sailing his Taipan as F16 at Port Kembla regatta 2005, he was sailing with Daniel when they finished 10th at the 2005 F18 worlds. So both of them Taipan sailors with F16 results

In addition I call Ogleetree a Tornado sailor and not an A-cat sailor. He races internationally as a Tornado sailor NOT as an A-cat sailor. I don't know Phil Kinder at all (international results ?). And I'll raise you a John Pierce or John Alani (former UK olympic tornado campaigners) for every Ben Hall and Lars Guck. And as far as I know Rick White owns a Taipan and not an A-cat.

Are you catching my drift now ?

Now I'm sure you will start limiting the field to only US based sailors, then I will say lets limit it to only Florida sailors, Where will this end ? So lets not get into that spiral. It is pointless.

I'm thrilled to see such great names participate in the A-cat class regulary, I really do, but don't expect the other classes like F16 to drop to their knees and chant ;"we're not worthy" because some A-cat sailors think that they are truly something else as a result. Actually I think this to be a little embarassing too. Neither of us are of the same level as these great names and so too the bulk of sailors in both our classes. So lets stop flaunting other peoples feathers here and rather look for common ground.

You know what, you may have the last word on this one. Make it memorable !

Wouter

I don't think there is anything that requires the Alter Cup to be sailed on a two-person boat.

Bill:

I'm a little slow, I just don't get the "midget discount"!? Culdja 'splain it to me please?

I sailed a H-16, single handed for years and loved it, just couldn't race that way.

Now, with the F-16, I'll be gainining up wind and down wind performance and be able to race. Plus, less weight to lug around on the beach, very important to the single hander.

So, again please, what's all this about midgets?

because it is a small boat- they make fun of it saying that you need midgets to crew on them and that they are so small they use remote-control servos to trim the sails.

Are they class legal!!

Pete,
Don't pay any attention to the midget propaganda.

At 6'1" and well over 200 pounds, Rick is not exactly a midget, and he has no problem sailing the Taipan 4.9.

What I dont get sometimes is why some folks here on the forums hate so much on the f16. Maybe to get back at Wouter? maybe because of jealousy? come on NOW. Regardless of what boat you sail we are all sailing beach cats. Get over it for crying out loud. Who cares who has the best boat out there.

Thanks Mary!

I hope ya'll realize that my midget comments are all made in jest.

I wouldn't want to offend the midgets out there in cyber catsailing world

Wouter,

Actually, Nacra was asked if they would provide A2's for Alter Cup, but the $5000 offered is no where near the cost, considering the market for used A2's (I know, because mine was purchased used). When you look at all the A-Cat manufacturers, I think that the Alter Cup had the best chance with Nacra, but maybe you could ask Vectorwerks, since you seem to be closely tied with them, if they are interested is supplying the Bim XJ. I think Jake would jump at the chance to have the XJ as an Alter Cup boat. What do you think, Jake? Would you be interested in having XJ's for your next Alter Cup?

Or a better question might be, How many of you out there would be willing to pay List price minus $500 for a nearly new A-Class that was only used at Alter Cup? Of course, these boats would not have the rig and sail customized for you, but you would save $500 and be able to pick it up at the Alter Cup site, fully assembled.

I didnt start the midget thing Pete.

Wouter, I agree, lets drop this current thread

12 new boats from the Alter cup is a great addition to the F16 class in the US, getting a boat used for a week, all tuned up and ready to go is a good deal.

If you guys go back and look at some of my comments, you'll notice that I've softened my stance on the F16 and lately even been slightly complimentary.

I do agree that Wouter has been key to getting this class started and he deserves a congratulations for that.

Bill

I was under the impression it was a two man event, am I wrong here?

I like comparing the input from both you guys, so please don't stop now!

You both are reasoned and often passionate in your opinions, which are traits I happen to admire.

I'd join in more, but don't have the knowledge base.

Bill,
As far as I know, there is definitely nothing that says it has to be on a two-person boat. In fact, I have been told that one of these years it could even be done on the Hobie Wave, which I think would be a perfect boat for the Alter Cup.

Mary,
Thanks for clarifing that, I stand corrected.
Bill

Tell us more about the radio-controlled servo's!!!
I like the idea, A bit like sailing on a Volvo 70 right now? Manpower can't keep up with the loadings and speed required, so it has to be "mechanically/hydraulically/electrically/servo operated". You could skipper your boat from a "chase power boat" with your crew strapped to the mast and you operate/sail the boat using radio control to servo's on the cat, from within the power boat, boy could you make your crew really sit up and pay attention to you then?

You'd have to have a pretty fat crew to make minimum weight.

How about servos to right the boat? hmmm. would be difficult to figure that out.

"fat crew"
At last, a sport for the truly large person, an end to "fitness" discrimination in sport