'A' Class Worlds in NZ

Probably a Moth...

Check out 3:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4rchn_AWjc&feature=share&list=UUTRH1UWd8Z59xqVgTrVYr-g

Nice video, great boats.

On SA there is a good article from Bob Hodges about the foiling issue in the class. Spot on, and for a former and hopefully a future A catter his opinion mirrors my own. Even in a development class this is a big jump, and for me the foiling thats going on neither looks fun or safe, much less cheap. Sure it looks cool, but not for my aged body.

You got a link or are you going to make me sort around on that awful website?

edit; oh, frontpage. <img src="<>/crazy.gif" alt="crazy" title="crazy" height="15" width="15" />

http://sailinganarchy.com/

Bob does make a strong case to protect the amateur status of the Class Association, but the athletes are going to find/design a foiling class eventually - within two years... NACRA has designed a foiling kit for the C 20, and there is a belief there will be one available soon for the N 17.

I doubt these factory alternatives will catch on due to the arguments Bob presented. So it would make sense to establish a new foiling boat for the wealthy and athletic up and comers.

AHPC has already adopted a new marketing name: Goodall Designs. Maybe they have a lightweight foiler in mind. I would not be surprised.

I could see the F20c foiling kit catching on, since those boats are straight line honors machines. Nacra 17 kit? No, those boats are Olympics only and even the trust fund boys know where to draw the line. Maybe for 2020.

Not an A-class owner but a potential future owner. I agree with bobs assessment. Foil foiling moths are cheaper (darn hard to sail!) and the guys trapping downwind with the C-boards and t-foils are already very quick. Plus the boats are very slippery in light air; that's a tough combination to beat. If it ain't broke don't fix it...

I've said from the beginning that without active control the dynamics to foil steadily and consistently is not in the realm of average sailors. The kits being offered is great but it's just marketing the latest

cool thing

rather it is functional or not. Everyone keeps talking about foiling A's like they're common. There are 2 in the US that I know of and one of them is in NZ right now. The class was strong before foiling and it's not going to change. The sky isn't falling. Go to 42sec and 3:05 in the video to see how easy it is.
My guess on the AHPC name change is that they are no longer made in Australia so they got rid of the Australian High Performance Catamaran moniker. Either way Goodall has been integral with AHPC for a very long time,and that's a good thing.

Todd
Sailors are very much of a follow the leader

What happens to the US class when the top 10 leave the class and go compete against the other top 40 guys in the world on foiling A cats. After all... that is who they are competing against now and WHY they are competing... Foiling A cats are where the challenge is.. they don't care if they beat a class of 100 weekend warriors... they know who the competition is. Glen Asby wins the A class worlds... Nobody says.. Glen won the Worlds and beat 200 boats... or 20 boats.. What matters is the prestige of the Class and the talent in the class.

So, Do you really think the top ten guys give a fig about what the next 30 guys in the US fleet want...
Hell no.... The crass thing to note is that Well It is a game of musical chairs... last guy to get out of their conventional boat loses a lot of bucks.

That is an almost certain outcome for the top 10 guys .. What do you think the next 10 guys in the pecking order do... I bet they follow the action as soon as they can... Again being crass.... It is a game of musical chairs... sell your gear before it is obsolete... Mostly, you jump to the new class because that is where the action has gone and that is what you truly care about. (its not about the parties... a veritable dick forest if there ever was one)

So, you have two classes... one with lots of energy developing foils and the other class going... wow.. the world changed fast! Is that a good thing? ... Is is sustainable?

The intention of the rules was clear.. No foiling... The rule failed.... Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.. When Glen Asby is imploring the class to wake up... I listen.. I hate the answer (just like you do) ... but I think he is spot on. Let them figure out a proper way to fly an 18 foot single handed uni rig boat, call it an A class and let the musical chairs game continue....This is a no pain solution if the class grows by the way.

When you don't want to play at this level because you get lapped by a rock star on a foiling A cat... Well, you go race SCHRS locally ... I think that is better long term outcome then two A classes.

What happens to the US class when the top 10 leave the class...

Ain't gonna happen here.
If all of this is dyer, why didn't the 18^2 set the pace as the next foiling superboat. No rules to stop them. Those pros (w/ the exception of Glenn) came to As to learn multihulls so they could get a piece of the AC pie. AC goes foiling so that's what you see their pros do. Do you really want the class direction to be decided by fully sponsored pros who, with the exception of 1 or 2, don't give a rip what happens to the class? You were whining about the cost before and how you couldn't and didn't compete, wait until the price of a reinforced,at weight,full rigged foiling boat hits the market. It will be 5-8x what you have been spending.

Mark, with US class president Bob Hodges stating he is against it, and frontrunner in the class Andrew Landenberger sailing conventionall as well I think your argument of the top 10 loses a little punch. It is certainly something being pushed to the limit this year at the worlds, even the rule that the

foils have to be inserted from the top

is being pushed with the hull cassette boat(Outteridge maybe), so personally I think the swing is way far right but this will bring about talks and a

better

solution that brings it back towards the middle in the end.

Todd

I didn't say I like the turn of events. It will be disruptive and $$$... no doubt. I just see this as simple physics based on the history of the class and what makes people go racing.
Why not the 18square... simply because nobody of note was playing with one and running a big event. Not so with the A class.

Ah... the

who gives a rip about the class

This is a myth... nobody gives a rip about the class... they care about their fun factor... Then, they get together with 50 people with the same interests...

I think it's too easy to

blame the pros

.... The class is development.... the designers have always driven the boats forward...I don't see new designers jumping in.. What I see are lots of sailors getting a boat and making minor changes to what is current and going racing. I think they do this because it's fun and they get to have a go at their buddy... I don't think they do this to spiff up their resume... Next year.. who knows what will be fun.

At any rate.. you can't welcome and cheer all of the talent that shows up at your NA's or worlds and then say... O they don't care about the class.. They paid their dues, got a boat, and showed up. It's a one year commitment.

Everybody is acting on what they think is fun... and fun is racing against the other guys at your level...Somebody is left to trying to keep people in alignment with rules that work and events that you want to go to. ... that is a racing class.

When the rules changed to allow lifting foils.... It was only a matter of time.... Sure, semi lifting C foils and T rudders give you a slightly better sailing boat... but you can't stop that train at that specific station with a change in the rules.

You really have to ask the question of what is good for the class. The A-cats have seen a really nice growth pattern over the last decade. I agree that only the top of the class will be able to handle (and afford) the foiling as it develops we need to try and understand what it will do the class. To be perfectly honest, I got out for several reasons - but one of them was that I could see the pace of foil development heating up. I was at the point where I probably needed to upgrade my platform to get to the next level and when I looked at what was happening with the boats (and the skyrocketing costs) it gave me a little push to leave the class. Now, I do have other reasons, not the least of which is the fact that my best friend is now sailing with me constantly on my F18...so take that with a grain of salt.

There's probably something to draw from the moth class experience when they went foiling. I remember there being a pretty big division in the class about to foil or not to foil. It worked out well for them. I think the A's are a little different in that the cost of the boats is more than the moth and is quickly crossing a threshold of being in reach of the common (and even not-so-average) sailor's finances. It's probably worth investigating who was a Moth sailor before foiling and who is part of the class now. Then figure out if that same type of future a-cat sailor is out there. Switching to a full foiling class will change the composition of the fleet. Ben Hall has already made a good case for that with his Sailing Anarchy post.

There's another practical consideration as well...can I do this on the lakes where I normally sail? I've seen a wold champion Moth sailor take his boat out on Lake Keowee and it was anything but stable in a stiff lake breeze. I don't think it's possible to reasonably foil any of the current offerings on our lakes. With the additional speed and narrower apparent wind angles comes an increased sensitivity to wind shifts and changes in velocity.

The a-cat class has a huge decision in front of it and I don't think they will be able to live in both a foiling and non-foiling world. It's going to have to be one or the other because even the back of the fleet sailors have competitive spirits and want to play on a level field. The question is how popular does the class want to be in the future and can they achieve it in a full-on foiling mode. Can they sustain a healthy class with a full foiling future?

Examining this from a different angle, there is enough interest in it that there will probably be a foiling class of catamarans sometime in the near future. What should that look like? Should it be a random set of novelty offerings from various manufacturers with no real organization or is it legitimate enough (i.e. not

just a fad

<img src="<>/wink.gif" alt="wink" title="wink" height="15" width="15" /> ) that there should be a class of racing cats to support it?

What is the ultimate foiling small boat? Should it have two hulls or one?

20 years from now .......

what's a hull ?

<img src="<>/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek" height="15" width="15" />

My first computer was more than a months wages......
the one that I'm using to type this post cost less than a 1/3rd of a weeks wages...

technology has come a long way in a very short space of time <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

why wouldn't foiling be the same ?

yeah its in its infancy at the moment so costs /designs/ installs etc are going to be out of the general populations reach as are the boats that run these systems....

If we could go to eBay and 'buy-it-now' a foiling kit that WILL get your boat up and foiling with a cost of around a grand and a Saturday morning to install it....
who here wouldnt have it on their watched items ?
who here would be buying it NOW ???

I cant afford an A-class, its simply beyond my means and it would take a huge commitment from me and the family to be able to get one......
and once its home in the shed ..... like our computers these days ... its already out of date ....

but if I could strap on a set of foils and be flying for a grand.......

where do I pay????

<img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Jake, I think you ask a great

big picture question

If you are going to foil... what is the best platform?

After all... a cat was a better speed solution then any monohull of even twice the size ... and when you added surf... the basic design was a clear winner. The other feature that seemed to work was the form stability.... cat's are not

tippy

So you got boats that worked from 3 to 30 and worked for newbies and rec sailors.

I haven't seen any of the mach 2 moths... but I would see the guys having to drag their moth I boats out to 4 feet of water sideways and then in breeze under 5 knots... the experience was unbearable. (some poor guy tried to race 12 miles from SSA to West river and never got out of the river...)

So... what does a foiling single handed cat get you over a foiling monohull? The A cats are not surf friendly... so that feature is moot. Do you get more speed with control having 4 foils with a cat? Do you get stability in big breeze and waves? Do you get light air sailing with the wide platform? I don't know...

I think you have to let the development class guys go for it in the A class box. (The elite guys are going to go for it anyway... soooo might as well hang on for the ride) Proof will be on the water....

Everyone seems to agree... adding lifting foils makes the boat easier and safer to sail in big breeze..NathanO in making the case for foiling A's said the crude first gen boat was much better in breeze up to 25... That in and of itself is a huge plus factor over the generation of boat that I have. Add in masts not breaking and the experience of sailing an A cat gets better.

Emirates Team New Zealand sailors Glenn Ashby and Blair Tuke have taken out 1st and 2nd at the A Class Worlds in Takapuna. More when official results are published...

Is that really the consensus? I haven't sailed a foiling boat so I can't really offer an opinion...but it doesn't look easier. It actually looks a whole lot harder and riskier. What it does do, however, is increase the speed so when you do wipe out you have a better chance of being thrown clear. <img src="<>/smile.gif" alt="smile" title="smile" height="15" width="15" />

Nathan Outeridge walks us through the foil setup and gives his view on the foiling situation.
What is clear though is that if the rules stay like they are these boats will stay hard to control, foiling is not gonna go away.

Nathan sure makes it look easy and fun. however, as Jake said, many of our locations would seem to make it a miserable experience.

It will be interesting what happens if a company like Exploder puts Nathans boat on the market soon. Isn't the stock boat about half the price of a DNA? It could still be cheaper than the DNA and sell like hotcakes.

Foiling for a grand? Here you go!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3AV1LJwQus

No waves? Try one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ3cIotGpNc

Want to call it a sailboat? Get a Moth. Want to call it a Catamaran? Get two Moths, and glue their wings together.

Wow, I had not realized they've come up with a way to adjust the angle of attack of the J boards, by sliding the top of the board, fore and aft, just like they did on the AC72 boats! And they've got a way to tweak the rudders at the top as well, to adjust the angle of the T foils on the bottoms.

Very interesting.

In my opinion T-foil rudders and flexi-J foil boards are here to stay. This week they were proven faster in both light and heavy air conditions. From talking to Glenn and Nathan, I think we are going to see more development towards longer/higher aspect rudders and deeper J-foils. This will allow the

foils

to stay in the water longer when going through waves/chop and also increase the stability of the platform.

The video and pics showed lots of crashes, but I also saw lots of stable flights for several hundred yards or more. There were also just as many crashes by non-foiling boats. I capsized four races in a row. It was blowing 15-20 with gusts approaching 30 at times. The wipeouts were pretty spectacular, and the leeward gate roundings were exciting at times to say the least...

Realistically the A-cat is going to develop into a boat that is more physically demanding to sail at the top level (but what boat isn't). Currently the sailors are using their weight to stabilize the boat and that involves quickly shifting your weight fore/aft and aggressively trimming to adjust ride height.

Personally I think leaving the existing rules in place and allowing the well-funded teams to continue to explore all of the possibilities is the right path. Somebody is going to come up with a solution that works for all of us.

We are entering an exciting phase of the A-class once again. It wasn't the end of the world when the class weight dropped to 75kg, carbon masts were introduced, or surface piercing bows were introduced. These were all improvements that revolutionized and reinvigorated our class. That's part of what makes the A-Class so exciting.

The sky isn't falling, that noise is innovation knocking at the door once again.

-Mike

Amen!

Shocking story from NZ, some Brit moved his boat around the park and forgot to look up now and then resulting in a fried mast. <img src="<>/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek" height="15" width="15" />
Luckily he was wearing rubber soles.

I would say he was even luckier than that, I don't think rubber soles are going to do much against 60k volts.

That is so easy to do. I'm thankful when I go to an event and they've marked these hazards in anticipation of our mistake prone nature.

The soles did save his life though, he used them to outrun the angry shopkeepers which lost power for the rest of the day <img src="<>/grin.gif" alt="grin" title="grin" height="15" width="15" />

Originally Posted by Tony_F18

Shocking story from NZ, some Brit moved his boat around the park and forgot to look up now and then resulting in a fried mast. <img src="<>/eek.gif" alt="eek" title="eek" height="15" width="15" />
Luckily he was wearing rubber soles.

Comptip would have prevented that. <img src="<>/laugh.gif" alt="laugh" title="laugh" height="15" width="15" />

Hat, coat, door . . .