Adding a Shute to a Ncra 5.5 Uni

I used to have a 5.5 Sloop, with a spin. I would sail it Uni with spin sometimes. The biggest problem I had was the helm with the spin up. It had lots of lee helm, even when I went deep, I think the boards were too far aft or maybe the mast was not raked back enough. Try to borrow one and test it before you spend the $$$$ on a pole, sail, blocks, halyard, sheet, etc... While it would be great for a long distance downwind race, around the cans it was not good. I later bought an Inter 20 and could not believe how well ballanced it was with the spinnaker up! I could actually put the tiller down, trim the chute with both hands or adjust the jib, or downhaul, whatever, the boat just tracked straight ahead...couldn't begin to do that on the 5.5 with spin. As soon as the chute went up, it wanted to head down, alot! Good luck but don't expect a miracle.

(I have raced both boats and whined and complained about how hard the F 17 was to set up and sail, so I can't belief I'm supporting this (oh well the times they are a changin'). )

Stop the presses! Setup time will be no different! Putting on the boom (better sail/leech control) and putting in the sqtop batten is no big deal. Just join the F17 gang and be happy!!!

Bob C

Bob, what does a new Nacra F17 weigh? I've never seen a number published. Is it just about as heavy as the new F18?

I would guess somewhere between 320-340? I have never weighed mine. When I won the '97 Uni nationals, my boat weighed 347lbs. That was with an alum mast and stock rudders; no carbon parts on the boat. Boats with the carbon mast/rudders were about 20-25lbs lighter.

Bob

I have been sailing my Uni with a chute for 4 years now. I think it is a sweet set up. I would caution going with the I17 chute though. With the spinnaker you need it built around the dimensions of the platform.
I went with a longer pole then the I17 as the beam on the uni is set further back.

Few measurements from my boat:

Distance from the Spinnaker tack to the shroud is 15 feet

Distance from the Halyard Block to the shroud point is 25 feet 8 inches.

I had my Spin built by Ulman and I have been very happy with it.

Unfortunately in the Northeast I have yet to match up with any other Single Handed Spin cats so I have nothing to compare it too.

Craig

Craig,

You are absolutely right about designing a chute for the boat! Just ask Fritz in MI about his!!

Bob

Bob, I was asking about the weight of the new F17's, not the carbon Uni 5.5. And on the spinnaker thing earlier, the one on my boat 5.5 was very full cut, not at all like the newer taller, narrow ones, maybe that's why there was so much lee helm?

Good comments. I agree with the weather helm thing. All the Nacra Uni's seem to have weather helm even after tuning. I was thinking of also adding the F 17 steering system, including the cross bar and the rubber attachments to the rudder arms. The F 17 rudders are currently class legal on a Uni, we voted that in several years ago. I didn't want to add them to my boat then because when I had a F 17 I had a tendency to stall a lot on the starting line and it is difficult to get out of irons because of the shape of the blades. But, the F 17 tracks straight as an arrow when ya let go of the tiller..really sweet system. I have been told to rake the rudders forward under the boat and possibly put washers on the top of the rudder attachments to help this out due to the differences in the angle of the transom between a Uni and a F 17. I was also thinking of putting the F 18 pole on the boat. With the rule changes coming in the NA F 18 class there may be some used poles available at a good price. I have seen Fritz's shute and its huge. I really think the smaller F 17 shute will be ok. Heck, with some big folks up here moving to big boy shutes if they can once again there may be good used shutes available. As for set up, its still fun to watch sometimes how many times the mast has to be raised before all the rigging is right. I remember Fritz once asked how many times it takes raising the mast before we got it right. I had to re step more than once way too many times. I was always getting the halyard screwed up. Since then I see some of the guys are getting better using the extended tiller stick to get the halyard through the spreaders properly. As to the weight of a F 17, I saw Mark Bachelors boat weighed at Spring fever last spring and it was 350 all up. My current Uni weighed in at 322, so with the proposed changes to add the shute I think I'll be looking at 340 all up. I really like the platform, hope it works out, if not at least it would be good for day sailing or long distance stuff. Once again...Rush, what do you think?

Bob, the difference in set up time between a Uni and a F 17 is significant. Lots of do dads to mess with on the F 17, thats what I was whinin' about. The bridle, the pole, the boom, the sheets, the halyard, the hair spray can for the shute ....But....they do fly downwind..don't they. Geez, I sound like I'm talkin myself out of it...don't mean to.

I guess I should have clarified about the setup time. I meant to compare the uni/chute to the F17. It's all relative anyway when fun is involved!
I still don't know what an F17 weighs!!

Bob

To my knowledge there are no rule changes coming regarding the F18 spin poles. What you may be referring to is that an exclusion was made for a few pre-existing end pole snuffers constructed from carbon. This exclusion is expiring in the near future and most of them are located in the colder regions of this continent!

That can well be the case Tim. The first spis on the Taipans had to some extend the same behaviour. However since 2002 the spi cut is different and the leehelm is as good as gone. Also we are reaching higher speeds with these. The pre 2002 F16 spis were wrong in the cut somewhere.

I second gettting a spi cut for your boat.

Wouter

Here's some other things you may want to think about if you have never sailed a spinnaker cat. First, as soon as you add the spin. buy some good foot straps and put them behind the rear beam, check with others for exact locations but you will need to have something to anchor your self to the boat, steering with one hand and trimming the spin with the other. On windy days, some guys think to fly the spin is "too much" but I can tell you it actually helps keep from pitch-poling because it lifts the bows up, over the waves. Many the windy day I did not fly the spin and regularly stuffed the bows. Then after some more experience, I tried flying the spin on windy days, got my butt to the back, out on the wire, foot in the strap, and it did a wheelie over the waves instead of plowing through them.

I never pitchpoled with the spin up, I did go over but not in a pitch pole type crash but from going too high, to avoid the speed bumps (non-spin boats). You want to be sure to have plenty of room below to bear off when the big puffs hit.

Since you cannot play the traveler, steer and trim the spin all at the same time, set the main and forget about it, work the spin. sheet.

Never ease the mainsheet when it's blowing and the spin. is up, you could break your mast as the spin. will be pulling the tip forward, you need plenty of mainsail leech tension to keep it back.

The only hard part is getting it snuffed at C mark! If it's really blowing, give yourself lots of time and room, you will be busy snuffing, not steering, and do not snuff dead downwind if you have the toilet seat at the end of the pole, the sheets will fall over the front and wrap under the pole, you will never get it all the way in but have to raise it again to do it right.

Snuff on a reach if you can or even with wind ahead of the beam if in light/medium air, that will keep the spin from getting tangled up front.

It's a little scarry the first time in big wind but once you get used to it, you will never want to sail without one again! The speed is very addictive, which is why we are sailing cats in the first place, right?

F17 sailors normally do not trap while buoy racing. It's much better to stay on the tramp area someplace and go lower.

However, if the wind is right during a distance race, we do trap out and cleat off the spinnaker so that we can work the traveler. But, you may want to get used to spin sailing before trying this!! Also, only do it in protected waters where you can make it to shore if you get separated from the boat. You can attain some pretty high speeds like this and, if you pitchpole, it can be quite violent.

Tom Turlington
F17 #124

Tom, for going A to C, yes, head deep, wild thing like an A cat, but what if there is a B mark, would you trap with the spin up?

I always eased the traveler out a foot, set it and forget it, and play the spinnaker sheet instead. You would have to add some cleats for the spinnkaer sheet if you want to cleat that...but in big gusty wind? not me!

Tom, I would agree with that, Pitchpoled twice now wile wiring with the kite up (both F5+) and it is VERY violent.

As for cleating the kite and playing the Traveller, I thend to only cleat the kite while I move the traveller and then re-cleat traveller and uncleat Kite, just feels faster to be constatntly playing the kite. (I use 2 Carbo ractchets with cleats (extra to standard F17 setup).

If I am trying to get to a mark that is anything other than dead down wind I will always wire if I can unless it is VERY windy (and in which case you would not have the kite up). Always remember that it may pay to head hight to start with (Kite down) and hoist later and carry it all the rest of the way (thus avoiding a drop and rehoist at B).

I always eased the traveler out a foot, set it and forget it

Do you ever watch your mainsail telltails sailing down wind? I find I spend most of my time with the traveller in tight or out 3 - 6 invhes max to keep my mainsail telltails flowing properly. Unless it is very windy and I am trying to get a little more control and de-power then I'll drop it down about a foot.

Timbo,

Some of us F17 guys have added cam cleats just aft of the daggerboard wells where we have also relocated the rotator cleat. If the wind is right during the distance race, I will cleat the spinnaker really tight then use the traveler and/or head low when the gusts hit. Now you gotta be " in the mood " to do this plus the situation has to be right. If you have a big lead, there is no need to chance it. On the other hand, if the F17 or whatever you are racing goes to this and starts leaving you in his wake, most racers cannot resist trapping out and chasing.

Tom Turlington
F17 #124

Timbo/Scooby,

It has been my experience when there is a " B " mark to just round " A " and keep on going as it is normally too high to run the spinnaker even with the traveler all the way to the stop!

As far as the main's telltales, I keep them flowing also with adjustments in Mainsheet tension and traveler adjustment. The more twist you have in the main the faster downwind. Remember, I only cleat the spinnaker on distance races and then only when you are sailing relatively close to the wind on the downwind angle. While buoy racing, you must constantly work the spin sheet unless you get a good lead. Then you can cleat and rest your arm.........same if you are way behind. The F17 has a way of totally exhausting a person of almost any age especially during an afternoon of 16 - 18 knot buoy racing. When we raced last weekend, the conditions were near that, and I was exhausted after 4 races being out of sailing shape and all.

I am running 4 ratchamatic blocks without the attached cleat..........

Tom

Scooby, yes, I trim the traveler to the main leach telltales but in big wind that is usually about a foot, like you said. I'd rather have it out a littl too much than in too tight, especially if it's gusty and I will be bearing off alot in each gust, that way I can concentrate on the real power, trimming the spinnaker. I just need one more hand or learn to work the traveler with my foot...

Tom,

I'll agree the 17 is very hard work to get the best out of it. But lots of twist down wind ? How much mainsheet do you actually let out ? I'd guess I let out about 18 to 24 inches max (allow the boom to lift maybe 4 inches) - But I am using the Alu mast and do worry it would snap in a big wipeout.

The amount of twist and how much sheet to let out is definitely a judgement call. It depends on wind speed, etc.

I was reading something about twist last winter in Bethwaite's book " High Performance Sailing." Then I checked some pictures of the guys that were pulling away from me downwind. They had twist whereas I was sheeted tight. Tested it last summer and the twist allowed me to stay with them or maintain a lead.

Tom

I have a 5.5 with an older full spinnaker also. At first I had problems in higher wind of having too much sail forward, which wants to push the boat to far down wind, causing me to have to *push* on the tiller to keep it on course. But I found that if remember to pull the boards up (which is optimal for down wind anyway) that the tiller steering is fine. If you have tiller push, other options are to adjust the rudder rake forward (using adjustment screws in rudder casings) and/or the mast rake back to adjust for this.

IIRC Bethwaite (I have the book too) talks about matching leach curves/exhausts between Spi (least control) and jib (more control) and mainsail (most control), which I agree with, but I feel we have to balance this against the need to support the mast too. This is why I advocate some downhaul when sailing down wind when it is windy, it opens the leach of the main, but still supports the kite as the bend in the mast is aft - this does then load the mast more in compression (but I've never been worried about this with the 17 mast as it is large in section / mass) - I am muchmore worried about the kite pulling the top forward and breaking in this direction.

Post deleted by Thomm225

Tom,

I don't usually play safe, and I usually win.

I'd be the the last one to ease off, I've had my kite up in about 30 kts, but on a lake where if it does go TU the (very good) rescue guys will come and fish me out (and they have done )

I've also just remembered that the I17R, the kite actually goes to the same place (above the deck) on your mast as it does mine, so I think for any given sheet position/load, you would have less twist induced than on the shorter Alu mast that I have.

Which kite box or Texaco? And how long was your string?

Tom

Don't understand (and why do you always missof the last "end quote" UBB code ?

I have been getting feedback from the Uni guys and I am favoring a Uni specific chute. If we are going to do this thing might as well do it right. Why use a F 17 shute at all. We will meet and discuss this Saturday and fuss about the details. Or....we may decide to do nothing at all...film at 11.