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Alter Cup Notice from USS

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(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

Nd

Originally Posted by John Williams
Mike, I can't let that sail by without pointing out that the restricted funds are still there. Would you share the balances of those funds?

I also would remind you that

way too much

is a matter of opinion. The committee had success negotiating an affordable charter fee when the manufacturers felt they got reasonable promotional value; something that eroded over time.

I *fully* appreciate you think the format this year was the only way to make it happen. I hope that the rumors that members of the committee feel the *sailors* are to blame for poor attendance this year are unfounded.

EDIT:

Blame

is an extremely negative word that does not move us forward. Each of us has a stake in the future of this event. Those of us who work with US Sailing to plan the event, based on the limitations we have, and the results of the sailor survey; and our sailors themselves. The committee did its best, with no event scheduled at the beginning of the year, to come up with an event. The sailors need to step up and attend, or the event has no future.

Two key words in your post above: Restricted and Opinion.

It is the opinion of the President, Executive Director, Board of Directors, Championship Committee, and Multihull Championship Committee that the balance of the restrcicted fund, approximately $50,000, barely earns enough interest to support drawing the required $2,000 annual draw per the gift document.

Drawing more than $2,000 per year requires approval of the Board. We were quoted $15,000 to $20,000 to have provided boats for the 2012 event. This is much more than an incremental increase, even over prior years when $7,000 at a time was being withdrawn.

But of course you know all of that. Do you have a new proposal?

Mike


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 9:19 am
(@Anonymous 13274)
Posts: 3111
 

Hi Mike -

Disgust

is also a very negative word, but it got used anyway. I agree that a volunteer with that sort of attitude will have great difficulty navigating a way forward. We have a fundamental disagreement that the sailors have an obligation to

step up.

That's quite a sales pitch. FYI, there were several years when the venues and boats weren't known until well after New Years - your situation wasn't unique, so don't feel too put-upon.

The balances of the Hoyt-Jolley and the two Steven's funds should have been reported to you at the AGM. Don't forget those important tools. For perspective, the $2,000 interest language was written in 1998 or 1999 - the charter fee was bumped to $4K shortly after that (2001), and got bumped twice more as we were required to replace promotional consideration with cash. Consider that for a moment - it was the office that drove the cost of charters up as they made national sponsorship agreements that increasingly marginalized the manufacturers' support.

In the entire history of the event (through 2011), we never got anything other than a unanimous vote of the Board to allocate whatever charter fee the committee deemed necessary to run the event. We had to stand before the Board and talk about the event and the budget, but that was all. The resistance to spending the money came solely from an employee who had never been to the event. It was the pervasive attitude on the committee that our job was to host a quality event as long as possible under the tightening constraints of sponsorship that did nothing for the sailors or the host's bottom line. I take it back - we got cool hats. The last Chair was ready to take the event in a new and sustainable direction, but got shown the door for his ideas. The committee was in full agreement that our primary function wasn't to have a bank account. How were the Hoyt-Jolley funds spent this year? Absent charter fees, they don't appear to have gone toward entry fees for competitors...

I know that calls were placed to previous champions (well, some of them, anyway <img src="<>/whistle.gif" alt="whistle" title="whistle" height="15" width="15" /> ) to ask why they weren't attending. I know what several of them said; a BYOB event isn't attractive as the Championship. I'm seeing that message got diluted somewhat in the translation.

You guys have a chance to get many more boats for next year, though it may only be a flash in the pan due to location and the fleet being considered. It will certainly be conducive to a much more marketable event for the future if you can take advantage of the situation - I can't imagine this year's sponsors are thrilled, or that prospective sponsors are very impressed or motivated. The committee got what they wanted this year - it's impossible to say that past committees who posted full rosters to over a quarter century of events were failures. Take what lessons you can from this year and be humble enough to apply them.


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 12:26 pm
Todd A. Hart
(@team_cat_fever)
Posts: 3061
Captain Registered
 
Quote
The last Chair was ready to take the event in a new and sustainable direction, but got shown the door for his ideas.

I would love to know the full story on this, but it seems that it is verboten to post it.

Quote
The committee was in full agreement that our primary function wasn't to have a bank account. How were the Hoyt-Jolley funds spent this year? Absent charter fees, they don't appear to have gone toward entry fees for competitors...

Shouldn't this info be accessible to any US Sailing member?


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 12:52 pm
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

John:

Thanks for not answering the question

Do you have a new proposal?

Has the

new and sustainable direction

you refer to above actually been documented anywhere?

No one said the prior events were failures, but the model did not allow for growth, and a 10-boat fleet was not viewed as a relevant championship by US Sailing.

More importantly, that model is simply no longer affordable. Your opinion on this has been duly noted, and as mentioned above, overruled by those with current responsibility and accountability for the funds.

Drawing down $15,000 to $20,000 a year is not sustainable. We are trying to ensure that this championship has a future beyond the next 2-3 years. Burning through the fund will not accomplish that.

The BYOB event IS the championship. We are trying to find ways, with the limited funds, to make them as attractive as possible. To that end, this year's funds were earmarked by the committee to be spent on a full-day clinic, free to the sailors. This would be captured in the minutes, available online.

While I struggle with this (Ford can't blame customers for buying Toyotas if Ford cars aren't attractive enough), we do have to hold sailors accountable when they say they want a championship then fail to attend.

In case you've been living under a giant rock for the past year, it should be completely evident that we were the first ones to openly ask all multihull sailors what they want, and have been trying to apply that information to rebuild the event. In some cases, the responses show equal aversion to both the old model and making changes. Bottom line, no matter what we do, we're not going to please everyone, so we need to decide whether the good of having the event outweighs not getting our individual preferred format options.

Mike


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 1:01 pm
(@bobcurry)
Posts: 737
Chief Registered
 

It sounds to me that US Sailing is the problem.

-----------------------------------------------------

Take the trophy away from USS, have the new champion host the next one at their yacht club each year. Rotate spin and non-spin each year. BYOB on P/N. No more stupid charter fees. Everyone must have insurance. Everyone races ALL the races. Make it accessible to everyone; no eliminations. The sailors get to pick which and how many big events they want to go to each year. It could be a 30+ boat event depending on the time of year!

Back in the day, the A/C meant something. The feeder races were the Area Championships. The funds collected from these races paid for the entry of their top team. The host YC or equivalent housed the sailors. Costs of attending were low. Only 10 or so teams from the USS represented areas raced for the A/C trophy. It was the USS multihull race, not some intergalactic race!

Currently, we are faced with having to bring our own boats. As fragmented as the classes are now, it is time to explore something else. In order for this race to continue, IMO, P/N numbers must be used. You have made this a spin only event and there are a lot of sailors out there with non-spin boats. The reality is you can not mix them in a P/N setting; the tables do not accurately reflect the speed of the spinnaker. I know P/N racing is not popular, but it might lead to something sustainable through our weak economic period.

After reading all this stuff, take a year off, take the pressure off, and regroup. 6 boats is not a show. Kudos to those who are there now keeping it alive.

All this is an attempt to see what may stick on the wall.

Respectfully,
Bob


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 1:45 pm
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

I don't see US Sailing as the problem. They have been very supportive and are taking a loss this year.

I like your thoughts Bob.

Mike


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 2:41 pm
(@tcatman)
Posts: 3070
Captain Registered
 

Hi John
Do you really think that the members of the committee did not evaluate the attractiveness of a BYOB championship to the usual Alter cup crowd, the F16 Class, and the rest of the community BEFORE the event moved forward??

The dominant point of view on the championship committee asserted that the championship and trophy are of real value to sailors and they would compete for the championship on BYOB. We took our best shot scheduling the event and ID'ng boats for private charter.

Quote
I know that calls were placed to previous champions (well, some of them, anyway whistle ) to ask why they weren't attending. I know what several of them said; a BYOB event isn't attractive as the Championship. I'm seeing that message got diluted somewhat in the translation.

The message got diluted???

1. Difficulty in obtaining a boat.
2. Schedule was too full and expensive this year, with the F18 Worlds on the other side of the country.

These are reasons that I can address on a committee moving forward.., As a committee member, I would judge that we over estimated our solutions or they were not good enough.

a BYOB event isn't attractive as the Championship

begs the question... what do you mean by attractive?


The minority point of view on the committee asserted that the

special

Alter cup sailors would not compete because they were not getting a good enough deal compared to the highly subsidized charter boats of past years.

Sadly, you just confirmed this assertion had a lot of merit.

Not attractive enough event is honest... However, Nobody has a pot of money that can be accessed year after year to make the event more attractive by providing boats to this group of sailors. The money needed to solve your problem does not exist for us or any championship in the country and we can't solve it by giving you stuff...

you write

Quote
It was the pervasive attitude on the committee that our job was to host a quality event as long as possible under the tightening constraints of sponsorship that did nothing for the sailors or the host's bottom line. I take it back - we got cool hats.

MY ATTITUDE on the committee is that the job is to organize a quality event for ALL Groups of sailors in the US... (Sloops, Spins and single handers), the host Yacht Club and their volunteers AND the organization staff that maintain the event year after year, under the constraints of 2012. (I also don't believe in fairy god mothers who promise lots of free money from unnamed sponsors )
For the record... I have NOT gotten a cool hat... or anything other then heartburn.

Quote
You guys have a chance to get many more boats for next year, though it may only be a flash in the pan due to location and the fleet being considered. It will certainly be conducive to a much more marketable event for the future if you can take advantage of the situation - I can't imagine this year's sponsors are thrilled, or that prospective sponsors are very impressed or motivated.

flash in the pan?.. chance? Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Quote
The committee got what they wanted this year - it's impossible to say that past committees who posted full rosters to over a quarter century of events were failures.

I have no problem giving you and past volunteers a pat on the back...happy now! now MOVE ON.

Quote
Take what lessons you can from this year and be humble enough to apply them.

Once again... What are your recommendations for BYOB events.
I will humbly await a cogent answer.

Perhaps something more then....

Your offer was not attractive enough for me

.. or

Quote
We have a fundamental disagreement that the sailors have an obligation to "step up.

Yes we do have a fundamental disagreement because I say that the sailors, yacht clubs and USSA staff and volunteers ALL have an obligation to step up. There is no free lunch and racing is a partnership among these players. It is not a buisness deal or a charity.


 
Posted : November 17, 2012 11:06 pm
(@Anonymous 13274)
Posts: 3111
 

Guys, I don't have a

new

proposal for you. My suggestion was to do the event on Waves here in Ca on 20 boats. When it was decided that nobody but me wanted to go to the mat on the charter fees, I supported taking a year off to regroup - a provided boat event every two years would be better than a BYOB event. I also said that it would be far better to spend serious money on a last hurrah before an extended hiatus rather than force the event this year and risk poor turnout, making it harder yet to attract or keep sponsors. I got shuffled off to Buffalo early, and told point blank that the past events could NOT be considered successes because the funds had lost money in a down market and not been augmented by new sponsorship. We've had terrific ideas of sponsorship for individual boats, so there was scoring between the Subway boat and the Home Depot boat (for example) independent of the regular team scores. The idea of buying a fleet was proposed and we looked at making the event a perennial affair like the Congressional Cup, hosted at a single club each year - that one, in particular, works well. You've had my ideas, and you've had the ideas of others - don't say you haven't gotten ideas. You guys picked one and the continued insistence that BYOB is the only solution is the chorus. I disagree - what else do you want me to say?

The Alter Cup and the Stevens Trophy were unique - that was the hook. If the event is another BYOB event, then you'd better come to grips with the reality that yes, it is a business, and you've put yourself into a market with a lot of competition.

Mark, it ain't about a pat on the back for anyone. Certainly not for me, anyway - I was chair a long time ago. But you should ask yourself; how many past chairmen or committee members did you ask about your job? There have been 60 or 70 volunteers on the youth and adult committees just in the last 10 years. You kept a couple of them on until you got tired of hearing them say something other than

BYOB,

which, by the way, isn't an idea that originated on the committee. I hear you guys say you don't want to look back, but I have to say (again) I think it's a huge mistake. Why were people like Art Stevens, Steve Leo, Jamie Diamond, Jake Kohl and Dave Ingram a little bitter in the end? Doesn't it seem remarkable to you that the position of chairman has universally resulted in burn out with the office? I guarantee that none of those guys had issues with the job during the week of the event - that's the only thing that made the bureaucracy worthwhile. But that is what convinced me the bureaucracy is what needed to be excised from the event, not vice versa.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 12:51 am
(@Anonymous 335)
Posts: 566
 

I have to agree with Bob that US Sailing is the problem with there rules and fees. Sailors don't attend the qualifiers in my opinion because of the extra fees at least I don't any more and won't in the future. I remember driving to a qualifier and paying 70.00 for a family membership so my wife could race with me in one event which we won but did not go to the Altercup because of cost and time. I personally won't go to another qualifier or Altercup because of cost and value. There are so many more events to go to that are funner and don't have the added US Sailing cost. How many boats were at the F16 Nationals the week before ? I guess the cost was less is why it was attended
more.
This years Altercup just tarnished the trophy with no past champions and such a small turnout. I do give the sailors that went kudos for going, but I don't think you could call it a real Altercup with so few of the best sailors in the US attending.
Also did want to say thanks to all the past and current chairmen and volunteers for your time and efforts on putting on the events.

Mike why don't you poll the question about the event leaving US Sailing and there rules and see what you get or was that in the survey you already did.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 8:53 am
(@tcatman)
Posts: 3070
Captain Registered
 

Dave.... It is not all about you!

from the NOR of the Atlantic Coast i420 event this weekend

2. ELIGABILITY AND ENTRY
2.1. This regatta is open to all boats of the International 420 class.
2.2. All sailors must be current members of US Sailing (www.ussailing.org) and the US I-420 Class Association (www.USI420.org).

YACHT CLUBS are part of the system.... It's a partnership... AYC does not want a reggata differnetial of a few bucks... they want everyone to fully participate...
It is a partnership... not a purchase.. and not charity of...
Sailors,
Yacht clubs and their volunteers
US Sailing, ISAF, and the larger racing community that provides the infrastructure.

It's not all about you... This Yacht club is running the event and they expect all of the sailors to be part of the system.

I am as cheap as the next guy... AND I don't like to be told what to do either... but I get the partnership between sailors, Yacht clubs and US Sailing/ISAF and the world wide scene.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 9:10 am
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

I've said all there is to say about the membership requirement. It is not unique to us, and should be viewed as something everyone should be doing before each season anyway, and not viewed as an event fee.

We are not going to ask to

take our ball home.

The Alter trophy is a US Sailing trophy, and too many people have worked far too hard to embarrass ourselves like that.

John, apparently you have been forgetting things. I've spent a lot of time on the phone since being thrust into this position, and you were one of the first guys that I spoke with. I'm not sure it will help anyone to discuss this further here.

Mike


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 12:59 pm
(@david.ingram)
Posts: 3879
Captain Registered
 
Originally Posted by brucat
I don't see US Sailing as the problem. They have been very supportive and are taking a loss this year.

Mike

What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 3:31 pm
(@mbounds)
Posts: 1823
Master Chief Registered
 
Originally Posted by David Ingram
What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.

F16 Nationals - 29 boats * $150 = $4350 (3 days of racing)
US Sailing MC - 6 boats * $325 = $1950 (4 days of racing)

Major Hobie events have ~ $600 to $800 of overhead per day (those are fixed costs, no matter how many boats show up)

That's why the event lost money - and no other reason. Because people didn't show up.

Mike already said the HJ $ was spent on Robbie's clinic.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 5:23 pm
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

I was actually referring to Liz's resources, since people love to throw her under the bus. Not only the countless hours of phone calls and emails, but she is there on site, is she not?

The event (club) shouldn't lose money, they would have adjusted expenses as much as possible, and did have the option to cancel prior to the event.

I have nothing but thanks to offer PBYC, Bert, the committee, US Sailing, the regatta volunteers and of course the twelve sailors racing at the event.

Mike


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 7:14 pm
catandahalf
(@Bert Rice)
Posts: 487
Chief Registered
 

Matt - Means had almost as much fun tugboatin' the Proline 20 as Janet Baxter did during the Miami OCR '11. We were hanging on the sun poarch for PBYC on Saturday afternoon when Fairlie spoke up. He told story of a survey they did down in southern Florida - What really draws attendance??? The survey revealed that camaraderie outweighed 'the party' almost 80% / 20%. Throw in a team of Olympic Race Officers, some good weather, and rum = One GREAT F 16 Sailing Festival! I left after Fairlie's story only to run into PU and his guests on their way to the yc.

missed ya, Matt

Too bad about the low turnout; but as Kurt Vonnegut says,

So it goes.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 8:43 pm
(@Anonymous 335)
Posts: 566
 
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave.... It is not all about you!

from the NOR of the Atlantic Coast i420 event this weekend

2. ELIGABILITY AND ENTRY
2.1. This regatta is open to all boats of the International 420 class.
2.2. All sailors must be current members of US Sailing (www.ussailing.org) and the US I-420 Class Association (www.USI420.org).

YACHT CLUBS are part of the system.... It's a partnership... AYC does not want a reggata differnetial of a few bucks... they want everyone to fully participate...
It is a partnership... not a purchase.. and not charity of...
Sailors,
Yacht clubs and their volunteers
US Sailing, ISAF, and the larger racing community that provides the infrastructure.

It's not all about you... This Yacht club is running the event and they expect all of the sailors to be part of the system.

I am as cheap as the next guy... AND I don't like to be told what to do either... but I get the partnership between sailors, Yacht clubs and US Sailing/ISAF and the world wide scene.

Mark,

I don't really care what the 420 class does. I don't know what AYC is. All of the qualifiers I have gone to were not at yacht clubs and the few Altercups I attended were on a public beach. The F18 worlds did not require US sailing membership or I would not have gone. They did have a bunch of US sailing people on some really big boats getting in the way and some US sailing race officers acting like butts at the worlds which was a big turn off .
I did not mean to make it about me just adding my thoughts about why I won't go and maybe why turnout is so low.

In my area most of the regattas are run buy sailors and not yacht clubs so I don't really get the partnership.


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 8:49 pm
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

US Sailing membership was required at the Worlds. Individuals belonging to a member group (class association) did not have to prove individual membership.

You really would have stayed home from the Worlds if you had to join? That actually says more about you than it does US Sailing...

BTW, everyone has a bad day occasionally, even ROs. Certification and experience can mitigate, but only so far.

Mike


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 8:58 pm
(@Anonymous 13274)
Posts: 3111
 

Again, not pot stirring - just historical perspective. The event in the past was REQUIRED to have a clinic to be eligible for the Rolex money (net $500-1000)... sooooo, if Hoyt-Jolley money was spent on a clinic (which is fine) that seems like a new expense...


 
Posted : November 18, 2012 9:08 pm
Jake Kohl
(@jake)
Posts: 11744
Three Star Admiral Registered
 
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Dave.... It is not all about you!

from the NOR of the Atlantic Coast i420 event this weekend

2. ELIGABILITY AND ENTRY
2.1. This regatta is open to all boats of the International 420 class.
2.2. All sailors must be current members of US Sailing (www.ussailing.org) and the US I-420 Class Association (www.USI420.org).

YACHT CLUBS are part of the system.... It's a partnership... AYC does not want a reggata differnetial of a few bucks... they want everyone to fully participate...
It is a partnership... not a purchase.. and not charity of...
Sailors,
Yacht clubs and their volunteers
US Sailing, ISAF, and the larger racing community that provides the infrastructure.

It's not all about you... This Yacht club is running the event and they expect all of the sailors to be part of the system.

I am as cheap as the next guy... AND I don't like to be told what to do either... but I get the partnership between sailors, Yacht clubs and US Sailing/ISAF and the world wide scene.

Ahh, but it was about him and the sailors like him. They were the ones that made the championships happen over a long span of time. If you lose sight of the fact that everything from US Sailing, yacht clubs, boat manufactures IS about the sailor, you might as well stop trying.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 8:11 am
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

Right. At the end of the day, the customers are the sailors.

Some of you guys run businesses, right? Aren't your relationships with vendors also a critical part of your business? In my experience, they can make or break you.

You may think vendors (host clubs) are replaceable, but treat them all badly and eventually you'll run out of them. Then how will you serve your customers (sailors)?

And for those of you still living in the past, even IF we could get 10 boats to show up at every qualifier, and they were properly run per the rules (and in what decade did those two things last happen), you couldn't charge enough to break even without raising the prices to the point that no one would come.

US Sailing said that there were no strings with the Rolex money (I know, shocking news for the haters). We tried to offer a discount to those who attended and won their qualifier, but since none of them were run correctly, we were justifiably concerned about legalities (appeals from sailors). Yes, there is precedent for this. Rather than write a blank check to the club, we decided to add a clinic and use a portion of the money for that.

Mike


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 8:29 am
(@Anonymous 335)
Posts: 566
 

Mike,

You are right the customers are the sailors. The problem with US sailing is they have gotten to big and wasteful on there spending (no value for the average sailor). Why can other clubs hold regattas and do ok? Does the Altercup have too many rules that add cost?

I have been self employed for 23 years and have great relationships with my vendors and they have worked hard to keep prices down and good service as the ones that do that best get the business. US sailing is the only organization so there is no competition for them and apparently doing a poor job of giving value to the clubs and sailors. I would say that US sailing would lose most of there membership if the regattas did not force you to have a membership to sail.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 9:25 am
(@david.ingram)
Posts: 3879
Captain Registered
 
Originally Posted by mbounds
Originally Posted by David Ingram
What!? How the hell could the championship be a loss? It cost twice and much and the F16 Nationals (and the food was off the freaking chain BTW) and you guys had Rolex money and 2k from HJ.

Oh wait, I know how it lost money... nevermind.

F16 Nationals - 29 boats * $150 = $4350 (3 days of racing)
US Sailing MC - 6 boats * $325 = $1950 (4 days of racing)

Major Hobie events have ~ $600 to $800 of overhead per day (those are fixed costs, no matter how many boats show up)

That's why the event lost money - and no other reason. Because people didn't show up.

Mike already said the HJ $ was spent on Robbie's clinic.

Matt, don't treat me like I've never organized and run a regatta before.

You're costs are per head and you damn well know there is almost no break for scale up. You're costs and revenue go up and down at almost the same rate regardless of the numbers. Everybody gets fed, shirts, hats...whatever, the only place you get a break is when it comes to trophies and that's if you keep them shallow.

The numbers for this event where known almost from day one so it makes it a pretty easy target to hit.

Let's do a quick and dirty budget comparison.

The USS Multihull Championshp has $41 to per sailor per day to spend, and this is just the fees the sailors pay, no Rolex money (we know where the Rolex money went).

F16 Nats: $25 per sailor per day to spend (3 days) but in reality it was a 4 day event. Everyone was there the day before and everyone was fed extremely well the day before, but I'll just keep the numbers to 3 days so the discrepancy isn't so glaring.

Since you knew the budget and new the numbers you were going to get why would you execute a regatta that you knew was going to lose money? Mike has beat up the previous chairs, excuse me chair for having regattas that were not sustainable. To then execute a regatta you know is a money loser, what the hell?

And for F@#K sake Matt, Mike and Mark stop blaming the sailors. You guys sound like a bunch shop owners blaming the customer for not buying a product they don't want. You noticed I didn't change the text size and bold it, I figured you could read it using the default text.

You guys do know how to put the USS Multihull Championship regatta in the black, right? Two line items come immediately to mind and I guarantee you the sailors would never notice a difference.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 9:41 am
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

Read the minutes. The committee approved a cancellation date (Oct 1) if insufficient entries (15) were received. The club requested that we lift that requirement so they could run the event. As far as US Sailing is concerned, all budgetary decisions are to be made by the host club. If they choose to host an event that loses money, that is acceptable to US Sailing. The committee voiced concern, but ultimately voted to accept the club's request, which also included waiving late fees and deadlines, in support of sailors; with the support of US Sailing.

As for this BS of Mike beating up on old chairs, give me a break. Just as you guys are screaming doom and gloom, I'm pointing out where changes need to be made. We are rebuilding good relations with US Sailing, something that had been sorely lacking for too long. I get attacked here nearly daily, comes with the job.

Mike


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 10:55 am
(@tcatman)
Posts: 3070
Captain Registered
 
Quote
Mike,

You are right the customers are the sailors.

Dave and Mike.... you need to take a look at this principle.

Definition of the word CLUB and customer

club/kl&#601;b/
Noun:

An association dedicated to a particular interest or activity.
A heavy stick with a thick end, esp. one used as a weapon.

The word customer

Definitions
1. General: A party that receives or consumes products (goods or services) and has the ability to choose between different products and suppliers.

Two points.... Yacht CLUBS have members... Period... They race some days and they organize on other days... They are never considered Customers... and Employees. Fact of the matter... they can't even sell over a certain amount of food and booze to the public... (they have a favorable tax deal relative to a bar or restaurant)

YACHT CLUBS agree to reciprocate services to other Yacht clubs and their members.... So... i get to go racing at another Yacht club's PRIVATE EVENT.. I get to use their bar... I get to use their restaurant.. and their Race Committee. KEY POINT I must be a member. By law... it must be this way... (you can't compete with private businesses) Historically.... reciprocating privileges is relatively new to sailing... The YRA's and US Sailing organized and standardized the reciprocity deals and all other aspects of racing to GROW THE SPORT.

So.... even tho you may think that Yacht Club A is competing with Yacht Club B... They are PARTNERS in a private relationship offering stuff to their members (aka sailors) along with YRAs and US Sailing.

Businesses have customers ... AND you will note... compete against different products and suppliers. Their is NO competition here between YC... there is a partnership between YCs.

Basically, Yacht Clubs opened their doors to cat sailors without insisting on membership.... HOPING that the sailors would understand they were freeloading on the partnership system... Man up and join up with the YRA as a club organization and reciprocate in growing the sport. Even better... cat sailors would join these clubs as members.

The more you focus on the idea and message that sailors are customers... the worse the game.

Mike, we use the term BENEFIT and not PRODUCT because USSA, YRAs and YACHT CLBUS offer benefits to their members.

If you sail big boats... you can see things a bit more clearly..
Sailing World Sells the NOOD Regattas to sailors.
Premiere Racing sells Key West Race week to sailors.
These for profit businesses BUY services from Yacht clubs, they pay for transportation of volunteers to run the events on the water and then sells the package to sailors.... The price is much steeper then when my YRA or Yacht club runs the identical event using the partnership of the sailors, volunteers, Yacht Clubs, YRAs and Sailors. When I choose to race the NOODs... I am a customer! When I race at somebody's club event... I am a member of a reciprocating club.

Dave wrote..

Quote
And for F@#K sake Matt, Mike and Mark stop blaming the sailors. You guys sound like a bunch shop owners blaming the customer for not buying a product they don't want. You noticed I didn't change the text size and bold it, I figured you could read it using the default text.

No Dave.... ( that would be Mittens) I am holding MEMBERS of the partnership accountable for not supporting their event. There was a breakdown this year.

The mistake is made by thinking you are buying a service.... Your analysis of how shop owner (St Andrews) is kicking butt over shop owner (PBYC) is bad for the sport.

FYI to the bystanders. .... US Sailing AND the USSA Multihull committee DO NOT SET THE BUDGET.... Pensacola Beach Yacht Club set the budget, pricing, fees, etc etc based on their costs, what they offer for food etc etc. Do you really think it's valuable to compare St Andrews YC and Pensacola Beach YC here...
For the sake of argument, because I don't have or have ever seen a detailed budget or accounting, the sponsorship money paid the overhead fees... So the bottom line... the YC is running an event for sailors who are members of the system.. Do you think PBYC screwed the sailors... Read the minutes... We have complete transparency here...


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 11:26 am
Todd A. Hart
(@team_cat_fever)
Posts: 3061
Captain Registered
 

Mark, for as long as I've known you (and that's a long time) you have always thought you knew

what was bad for the sport

and lately have been more than willing to cut off your nose to spite your face to try and force it. In all those years you haven't solved the problem which leads to the theory that either you ARE the problem or maybe you're just wrong, or both. The political references are laughable and hypocritical at best. You guys seem to operate like D.C.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 11:52 am
(@mhill)
Posts: 806
Chief Registered
 

One thing that hurt attendance is that this regatta was held in the Fall. This regatta needs to be held in the Spring. Yet this Spring is now too close to hold another. I'd like to see the team regroup and hold off and announce a new Altercup regatta in Spring 2014.

I've been to 5 Altercups. Every one was a great event. I have no idea why US Sailing thinks that the 10 boat event is not a good idea? It worked for years and every competitor that I've ever talked to throught it was a quality event that produced a Champion.

I think I heard Charter Fees were like $2500 or something. That makes it impossible to gain attendance outside of the class.

Having it be an open event has removed the exclusivity of the event. We already have an F16 and F18 open event. No need for another.

And final nail was no provided boats even though the boats weren't completely provided in the past. I know we paid a Charter fee. The charter fee was very reasonable.

The provided boats enabled competitors to come in from anywhere in the country and made it very convenient to attend for the competitor.

I'd like to thank all the past chairman that did a great job under tough conditions to pull off a great event.

Mike just got dealt a bad hand. Not sure he really listened to the sailors because I know I filled out a survey and was very clear that a bring your own boat event wouldn't work. Perhaps the survey was filled out by internet sailors? I'm not sure.

Since this format obviously didn't work I'd hope they would rethink the decisions made and perhaps listen to past chairman and competitors to help find a solution.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 12:02 pm
(@brucat)
Posts: 3939
Member
 

In case it's not obvious, I do have respect and admiration for those who were able to pull this off in the past. They were the first people that I called. Some have been helpful throughout the entire process. Others, not so much...

Mike, lots of people (myself included) were against BYOB. I came into this thinking there was no way BYOB would fly. BUT, I kept an open mind, knowing that the long-term relationship was more important than any one detail.

I was fully ready, and already in Jack's office with ideas, to move heaven and earth to come up with $5,000 extra to make up for the gap between the H/J funding and previous budgets ($7,000 total), to continue with provided boats.

Reality sucks. Bert researched the costs to do a provided boat event at PBYC and the math adds up to nothing less than $10,000 for 10 Hobie 16s. It approached $20,000 for F16s and F18s.

Despite all the venom being spewed here, no one has provided a workable solution to crack that nut.

Want to earn my respect? Help us pay for that, or accept reality and let it go, and work with us to move forward.

Mike

BTW, the survey was split on this. There is a sizeable silent group that felt alienated by the old format.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 12:19 pm
Jake Kohl
(@jake)
Posts: 11744
Three Star Admiral Registered
 

Want to find the key party in any relationship? Figure out which one can exist without the other....it isn't the yacht clubs or USS.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 12:56 pm
Jake Kohl
(@jake)
Posts: 11744
Three Star Admiral Registered
 
Originally Posted by brucat
...
BTW, the survey was split on this. There is a sizeable silent group that felt alienated by the old format.

I would argue that those who felt alienated probably wouldn't attend anyway....and the evidence supports this a good bit. I think that the results from the survey were skewed somewhat because there were probably a lot of people weighed in the scores that probably wouldn't even attend their own class' national championship.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 1:15 pm
(@Anonymous 13274)
Posts: 3111
 

Mike (Levesque) - I have been encouraged to believe that manufacturers will return to deeply discounted charter fees in the event that they again receive title-sponsor-level recognition. Let's face it - Hobie, Nacra, Falcon Marine, and AHPC have done far (far, FAR) more to support the event than Rolex ever has... that's not a ding on Rolex. We're just not their demographic.

Consider exploring a path forward that allows the event (designated a Championship or not) to book our own sponsorship deals. If the boat builder or provider gets top billing, with a couple of other high-level national deals (Zhik, for example, is a better supporter for us than Gill), followed by the host club's selection of sponsors, all splashed onto a better, redesigned web page for photos, video and mark-by-mark updates like we used to get (thanks Darline and Jamie!) that is maintained by someone on-site, I think the event can be newly invigorated. I agree with Mike (Hill) that Spring 2014 should be the target and announced as such ASAP, to allow for publicity and planning. Re-commit to a qualification system that results in a who's who, rather than a who's free. Engage the class leadership in the US to re-kindle a spirit of cooperation and a feeling of a shared, vested interest. All of these are recycled ideas, but I encourage their consideration anyway.


 
Posted : November 19, 2012 1:15 pm
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