Australian F18 Nats- Ashby dominating!!!

I'll second that! Greg and Jacques need to travel more and participate in global events. They are certainly hot on the race course and they need to do some representin' for the USA (and Canada)!!!!

Thanks for the clarification.

Don't we just love these word games with Hobie sailors ?

Wouter

And don't we all like Wouter with his one design, one off being an expert on everything. Get a life Wouter.

I know it is extremely hard for Hobie sailors to say the word "formula". They rather call the different boats : Stock 2000, stock 2001, stock 2002 , ... stock 2006. Even though the year 2006 isn't even here yet. Before we know it you can buy a stock 2010 boat in the year 2007.

Anything to not have to say "FORMULA", right ?

Even when refering to my boat you rather call it "a one-design one-off" than what it truly is a FORMULA boat. Forgive me when I have trouble understanding what a "One-design one-off" exactly is. Seems to me that these two describtions are mutually exclusive.

I know, I know. Formula is such a clear expression of "NOT ONE-DESIGN" !

The names "stock 200X" are alot less ... ehhh ... clear and hurtful to One-design junkies.

Just pathetic guys. it's just pathetic.

Wouter

Wouter,

In my context... "stock" has nothing to do with "One Design". It has everything to do with "available to the masses" and not some kind of secret weapon created for some event.

Humm, so who else had access to the "stock 2006" gear except Bernier and crew at the last F18 event ? Certainly not "the masses" or else it would have been named "stock 2005" or older.

Besides I never said it was a secret wapon. Those are your words. Interesting that you choose to deny something that wasn't even stated in the orginal post.

"Available to the masses" can only be done when the Tiger class rules reflect the F18 rules. Otherwise will always see the Hobie factory teams show up with next year stock items. By opening up the Tiger rules "normal sailors" can optimize their own sails and not have to wait till Hobie releases their new stock.

Although this is not a big issue in reality. Any serious Tiger crew already does his own thing without any regard for momentary the Tiger class rules.

Wouter

The way I understood what has been said is that the STX sails are being sold stock for the 2005 Hobie Tigers but will not be "class legal" for the Tigers until 2006. In other words, they are available to the masses and can be used for Formula 18 events, but cannot be used in Hobie-sanctioned events until 2006.

Am I correct in that, Matt?

Yes, Mary has it right.

Everything that Greg and Jacques sailed with was available with 2005 boats. But... they used an even older spinnaker (cut was available several years ago). Many of the Tigers were using STX sails. Remember that this is the cut that came out at the F18 Worlds a year ago.

Ohh I understand it now ...

Tiger class rules are exactly the same as whatever is introduced at the F18 event a year earlier !

Why not have it the same year ? If you guys are going to change the Tiger class rules on this aspect every year anyway, why not just do away with this useless class rule and just copy the F18 rules ?

Are you guys taking yourselfs seriously ? Because I certainly don't. What is the use of any "approved Hobie tiger class" mainsail shape when the rule on it has been rewritten and will be rewritten with every new development in teh F18 class anyway ?

Mind you, the newer Hobie sails (over the last two years) are indeed alot better than before. I can fully appreciate that Hobie allows the Tiger to go with the times where some other classes fanatically hang on to outdated sailshapes.

Wouter

The Hobie Class and manufacturers are walking a tightrope between maintaining one-design Hobie Class racing and a competitive Formula 18 class boat. So far it is working with a few grumbles here and there.
The Tiger class adopts gradual class rule changes, thereby slowing development to an acceptable pace for Tiger Class sailors. This means that Tiger class sailors get more than one season out of their sails etc. The Tigers which compete at F18 events are usually stock standard class-legal Tigers but sometimes they carry the latest prototype gear from the Hobie R and D team. At this year's F18 worlds, USA Nats and Aussie F18 Nats, the top Tigers were Hobie class legal boats equipped with stock standard equipment available to everyone at the time.
Sometimes the HCat Europe team uses the F18 Worlds as a test for new ideas. The Hobie Class does not always adopt these latest developments.
Anyway Wouter, we don't really care what you think!

Mal Gray
Vice President Aust F18
Member IHCA Rules Committee

I can't argue with your observation that the class seems to lag F18 by about a year - but I don't think it is a big deal. The Tiger one design class is an elegant compromise between the F18 class (rapid development, higher cost to be at the top end) and a very static class that then results in boats which are no longer competitive at the top level of F18 racing. The class continues to evolve and adopt some of the best ideas of the F18 class while keeping the cost a little lower on average for class members.

The STX main is a very welcome development - it certainly seems to be an improvement over the old main when we have done testing. Delaying it's adoption in the Hobie Tiger class in North America until Jan 1 '06 kept the 2005 Tiger Worlds fair. I'm not sure why this was delayed until '06 though - right after the worlds would have worked fine unless the idea was to save class members the cost of an immediate upgrade after a bunch of new boats had just hit the racing scene over here.

Life may be simple if there was just F18 class, but the Hobie Class Association and Hobie are both acting in their own interests by keeping a Hobie Tiger class - what have they got to gain by ditching the current class rules and joining the F18 class?

Personally I would be happy with just an F18 class - but realistically I don't see that happening any time soon.

Chris.

But if the new mains are not legal till 2006 than why why are they delivered with the new Tigers in 2005 ?

All this trouble for what ? Ones it has been decided that a new main will be adopted you will see a point in time where a split between old and new will be encountered. There is simply never a way around that, what is the use of putting it off a year or two ? I mean a guy ripping his sail 2 months before the introduction of the new main still has to buy an OLD main to be class compliant right ?

I'm not a hobie sailor so indeed my opinion accounts for zilch I guess. But what Hobie should do is make the platform OD and the mast and just open up the sail rules, make these equal to the F18 rules. THEN you have the best of both worlds.

In addition I would like to comment on another conflict in claims :

It always seems that the argument for having such restrictive rules are to keep costs down and slow down development. But almost in the same posts it is always claimed that the best Tigers at big events are stock boats ! Suggesting that "old" gear stays competitive in the F18 class as well !

So what is it guys ? Either the lead tiger have the lastest go-fast stuff that simply isn;t TIGER OD or they don't and the whole foundation under the restrictive rules falls away.

You can't have it both ways.

Wouter

Yes, Wouter, apparently they can (and do) have it both ways. Doesn't make any sense to me, either. But as long as it is okay with the Hobie Class Association, it is really none of our business.

I guess that would be the case if these discussion stayed wholely inside the Hobie class. I wouldn't post things like this in any Hobie specific forums. But everytime we get into that "Have a hobie day !" glorification threads on the OPEN forum I think I'm allowed my say. No I will say that Hobie class does several things right (providing boats for ex.) and these are best copied by other classes but the "Tiger = OD class and therefor better than F18" rubbish certainly isn't one of of these things. I'm truly sorry but I have a really hard time not seeing a clear theme of misinformation.

But on the other hand, what am I working myself up about.

I will look my up that shady place under my rock again.

Wouter

I saw Mitch Booth and his son build a stock Tiger right out of the box at the Tiger Worlds - and they did very well on it. If I remember correctly what my friend who went to the 2005 F18 worlds told me, Darren Bundock's Tiger had the stock Hobie Tiger spin - not the new flatter F18 spin. I think he also had the stock "one-line" spinnaker tack/halyard system - instead of some of the latest greatest separate internal tack line with spin halyard cleat on the mast.

My point is I think what makes the top boys win is not the boat - its their sailing ability. That is why they do good on stock boats. My conclusion is a lot of the latest tweaks make a marginal difference in speed. Occasionally something like the new style "Super square top" mains comes along that really seems to have an edge.

One advantage the top guys have is they are often working with brand new sails and brand new hulls, boards, rudders. Assuming the sails are cut consistently then I think there is a real advantage in a crispy new spin for every regatta.

Locking in on a class sail design may give a more level playing field - and I think a side benefit is that folk would spend more time focusing on their sailing (with higher performance returns) than worrying about some perceived edge from the latest hot main or spinnaker.

Chris.

Exactly! That is, I believe, the original Hobie premise and the class still strives for that with the Tiger.

By the way Wouter... I don't think anyone claimed that the Tiger Class system was better than F18.

So OD means more money needs to be spent on the brand new hulls sails and foils. Is this because the quality can be lower than non-smod classes?

As long as the crew is willing to spend the money for new rigs hulls and foils.. Nice level playing field..

Thanks I needed the giggle on how "single manufacturers one design" system saves money.. Especially as it requires more outlay than a formulae or box rule to keep competative..

S.

You completely missed the point there. The OD idea is LESS cost because an OD class doesn't have to buy the latest greatest stuff every other regatta.

Interesting theory you have on quality as well. Generally in a production setting you get more consistant quality, not less. You learn how to make things right.

Let's not start a rumour about how expensive it is to stay up-to-date in box rule classes either. David and I placed 13th (our best showing by far) with a factory boat and sails that have one full year of sailing and something close to 600 miles of distance covered with it (and a good deal of it in heavy air). To our chagrin, even the spinnaker is the same.

Sorry Jake.

I certainly did not mean to imply that the box rule IS more expensive.

I was replying to an assumption that somehow OD IS more expensive. The open rules have the potential to be more expensive. That is not to say that a OD guy could not spend a ton on new sails, masts and stuff every regatta, they would just be buying the same stuff, cut every time, but what would be the point of that?

The factories are free to do whatever they want in the way of modifications, whether it is in the name of development or cost savings or safety.

Over the years we have all seen product innovation (PI) at what cost?
Can vestal one design be maintained forever? (Even the Laser has change it's rigging, oh my deity)

However PI seens to keep selling new boats, or new sails. Again, no one complains (with results) when sails change, and chalk it up to maintenance.

If the perfect boat or sails could be built to a level where they are maintence free, NO fibreglass fatigue, no rigging revisions, no one would need to rotate boats, and the manufacturers would SINK?

The price of keeping the manufactures afloat is paid by the sailors sacrificing virginal one design. Product innovation is what keeps the manufacturer at sea. If there is no incentive to buy a new boat/sail/innovation how are the manufactures going to stay afloat?

So perhaps there is a fourth class of boat.
1. Formula one design (F18)
2. International one design (Tornado)
3. Manufacturer's one design (Laser)
4. Manufacturer's one design with mucho product innovation (Tiger)

Not to mention fibreglass fatigue problem, which only the Tornado class has resolved (ARC?).

Vestal one design throughout the lifespan of my boats has appeared to be a myth. Somehow one design boats (& sails) seem to get a little better every year, and after a couple of years I want to buy a new boat. Just the cost of new set of sails on some boats can justify the cost of buying a new boat and supporting the manufacturer. What good does has it ever done to whine at the factory for wanting to make some dineros by building a better, stiffer, longer lasting boat or sails? Sometimes I don't like it and the price is to high to play, but I am not against anyone trying to make a buck$.

Just FYI, the Tiger is an International One-Design Class, along with the H14, H16, H17 and TheMightyHobie18. The manufacturers cannot make changes in these classes willy-nilly (although Hobie Europe tries with the Tiger and most recently with the addition of a spinnaker to the H16). Changes must be submitted by the Class Association and approved by ISAF - not a rubber stamp, BTW. The manufacturers have a say in the class rules of these classes, but they do not control them.

FYI pt 2.

The Tornado is not a one design; it is a formula class with tight controls on hull shapes; Marstrom Hulls (Currently the weapon of choice) are not the same as White Formula Hulls or the same as Alwoplast or most of the others on the builders list etc etc.

Look at any picuture of a fleet of Tornado's and you will see the sail shapes are different.

We are in a very similar situation with our Spin - one year old, similar mileage and wind conditions, and it shows. In light air the shape looks bad now and we can't carry it as high on a reach anymore without it collapsing way earlier than other Tigers with younger chutes. Still we are doing OK in the local races, and I'm not going to buy a new one until next year (no point in wearing out a new kite in winter practice).

So if you go F18 or Tiger OD I think you can race and be relatively competitive without brand new sails etc at every event - i.e. the cost is reasonable. Chutes are unfortunately are a consumable if you sail a lot.

To paraphrase the gospel according to Rick White (Cat Sailing for the 90's): Getting a good start, keeping clean air, picking the right side of the course and making good mark roundings and tacks is worth multiple boat lengths around the course....the latest go-faster goodies - a few feet.

Chris.

What is the big problem any way with Hobie (Tiger) just adopting/incorporating the F18 "Box rule" as the Hobie Tiger measurement rules??
They are so close anyway that it would just seem to be the logical solution to any "misunderstandings". There seems to be no problem with the Hobie Tiger sailing against the other F18's now as "fully optimised" F18's, so what is the big deal? The only argument that I can see by having a "one design" class Hobie Tiger and a fully optimised F18 Tiger is that Hobie can sail their OD Tiger at their OD Tiger events? What would change if the Tiger was fully F18? They could still be sailed at OD Tiger events as OD Tigers without the inclusion of other F18's? Where/what is Hobies reasoning for this anomaly? (Tell me it is NOT just a “profit” thing)

The Tornado is one design.

The design allows for home builders manufacturing error when building the hulls and platform.. But the tolerances are small..

Yes the rig at th moment is openish..

No you have to just buy a new set of foils, a new platform and sails. A huge saving!

Is that why Aussie home built hulls are still winning titles, in open and home built classes, 15 years after building and consistant "quality" "built right" production hulls are land fill at the same age?

Again thanks for the chuckle..

100% correct.... The T is what you call a Multi Manufacture One Design Class (MMOD) as apposes to the Tiger which is a Single Manufacture One design Class SMOD)

Darryl, Its not about profit, its about drawing a line somewhere so that the equipment is equal, not just similar. Sure, gear upgrades are approved from time to time but the best you can have is what is easily available to all. At a Hobie class event, no one can gain a speed advantage through advanced equipment. Believe it or not, that is what many racers around the world want and that is why Hobie Tiger will not go full F18 class rules. We have a very reliable communication channel with members and use it to gauge opinion before making major changes.
You will do what works for you, we'll continue to do what works for our members.

Single-manufacturer one-designs (SMOD) are very much in the minority as far as one-design classes. What is there besides the Vanguard classes and the Hobie classes? (I don't know what the deal is with the sailboard classes.)

The Optimist Dinghy Class is the largest in the world right now, and they have a huge list of builders and sailmakers --and plans available for building the boat yourself.

When we got our Lightning in 1948 it was the largest one-design class in the world. It had a number of builders, and you could get your sails anywhere you wished (as long as they measured in).

The Tornado also can have many builders and sailmakers, and you can also build it yourself, but all have to comply with the measurements and tolerances.

Those are examples of TRUE one-design. SMOD's are not true one-design, because they force the crew to be one-design, too.