Are you saying that the Formula approach allows performance improvement at a faster rate than Hobie is willing to allow for their OD class? I'm not disagreeing with this, but surely if it's true it would sooner or later doom the Tiger to falling out of contention as a competitive F18 boat. I don't doubt that OD and Formula both have legitimate appeal to different sets of people, but is it possible to satisfy both sets of desires at the same time?
Mark.
pros or no pros, they just don't cut it do they?
The last I looked Brad Collett, Brad Sumner, Mal Gray are not pro's.
Cheers
Steve
Sorry to go back to original subject. Last year Capricorn (Greg Goodall) was winning 04'Aus. title, until the last race when F18Tiger (Glenn Ashby) snared it (with at that time non Tiger legal sails, Capricorn beat first legal Tiger). Greg did not compete this year, Aus. F18Tiger sailors had obviously lifted standard, as first Capricorn at 05' Aus titles did well at Worlds.
My point? That the Capricorn is capable of beating Tigers. Tigers don't dominate on Australian scene. When Ashby and Bundock are not there, Capricorns win their share of events. I am afraid haven't seen many Nacras win though.
It certainly sounds like USA Tiger sailors should be let out more though, I am a "weekend warrior" and do at least 12 regattas a year and aprox. 20 weekends. Maybe that is why top Aussies are so good, "weekend warriors" pushing them. You Yanks had better get sailing or you will get your butts kicked when worlds are Down Under. 
Regards Gary.
As an avid F18 sailor and and the Aust F18 media guy, I try to minimise reference to manufacturers, preferring to report on the accomplishment of the sailors. The heading above (not mine) was accurate. Ashby did dominate after the first day. Your's truly was ahead after the first three races, but Ashby's string of bullets put paid to my brief taste of free beer at the winner's tent!
The successful promotion of F18 needs unbiased promotion and emphasis on sailor skill not equipment. The designs are all pretty close in performance. The sailors make the difference.
Mark,
To clarify.... the class legal Hobie Tiger will always be F18 compliant. The Tiger class rules will be more restrictive than the F18 class rules to offer limited one-design racing as well as F18 racing to Tiger sailors. It is difficult to have the best of both worlds but it is do-able.
Malgray
Why are you going to the effort to maintain two racing circuits EG... Tiger one design and F18 in Australia? ... Doesn't the dichotomy force people to choose one or the other and cut participation in any event in half. How does this grow participation in F18's?
Even if the Tiger events are a once a year nationals IMO few sailors have the time or resources to compete in two national events (Tiger and F18)
How does this help you grow participation in F18's?
I am very curious in a non USA perspective on this philosophy.
Mark, here in Australia, there is a place for both competitions. The F18 has developed into a pretty high-level contest at local and national level with the best sailors from all classes having a go. There are also plenty of Tiger sailors who want to class race and join in the fun at a Hobie Nationals without the intensity of F18 with its measurement etc,etc. A Tiger class sailor gets a few seasons out of a set of sails.
The keen guys do both, some choose one or the other.
F18 in Australia was originally formed by the major classes to be an additional parrallel competition. Nacra and Capricorn also hold class Nationals.
Maybe we just sail more than the average USA sailor.
A keen racer here can compete in competitive regattas within 10 hrs drive a couple of times per month. Some guys do just that.
Get to race 2 x state, national and World titles....... Can't be unhappy about that. You also get to meet the same great guys an extra time each year.
Also Mal, you are right..... It is the sailors who are up the front...... Not the class they sail. All credit should be given to those sailors up the front of the leader board as it is a very competitive fleet. You don't just get there by being a weekend warrior. Plenty of training and preperation outside of club events.
Hi
Thanks for the insight.
Sounds like the modern version of A and B fleets in the hey day of the Hobie 16. Just not as rigid. Interesting.
Yes... I think you guys go racing much more frequently then we do. Very few teams seem to compete in 5 or more events a season.
Take Care
Mark
This is amazing!!!
I am a newbie to this forum but I can see why I will not spend too much time here in the future.
This thread was started to praise the efforts of a certain team in Australia and has progressed to throwing stones at manufacturers, sailmakers, and anyone who would supposedly have a reason to undermine the fairness of the sport in an effort to win at all costs.
GIVE ME A BREAK.
The reason these people win, as it was pointed out earlier by Pat and seconded by Mark, is that they sail. They spend time on the water. Hobie cat racing is the purest and largest one design racing class in the world. There is none like it. Is it any wonder that the most competitive and most successful competitors come from this class?
I look at Enrique from PR. He is a dear friend, a great competitor and probably one of the, if not the greatest catamaran sailor in the world. I have seen him dominate H16 events, go to a H20 event (having never even sailed the boat) and dominate and now he goes into the Tiger NAs, dominates only to come back to the H16 a short time later to dominate again. I do not even think Randy Smythe (as good as Randy is) can do that. I remember Randy having a bit of a difficult time on the H16 at the 1st Carlton Tucker memorial event in 1999.
Greg and Jacques are two of the finest sailors I know. Greg is an old friend from our "Brat Pack" days of our crewing around the country. Both are humble in their ways and are the first to give you a clue as to what you can do to improve your efforts. A true Carlton spirit exists in these guys. If you don't know what I mean by that you didn't know one of the greatest sportsmen I have ever known in Carlton Tucker.
I just cannot believe the replies and the innuendos over the type of equipment being used, is it a smoking gun, is it legal, maybe we should have more classes, more rules, etc.
I'll tell you what, get off your butts, out from behind the computer screen and start sailing your boats. Put some water under your hulls and begin to see what it takes to become a great sailor.
IT ISN'T ABOUT THE BOAT!
Mark
Mark,
Well said. More times than not these threads degrade into mudslinging by the same core group on this forum. Keep up the great job you've always been doing.
John Bauldry
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI
Hobie Tiger #1704
Hobibrat1, To say that,
"Hobie cat racing is the purest and largest one design racing class in the world. There is none like it. Is it any wonder that the most competitive and most successful competitors come from this class?"
Is taking on a fairly large weight to carry on your shoulders, isn’t it?
I am quite sure that many/most of the best/top, international catamaran sailors over the last forty or so years DIDN’T come from out of the Hobie ranks. Although there are some very prominent examples of good/top international sailors, over that time span who started their careers in Hobies, there are just as many, (more) who never competed once on any Hobie cat.
I am sure that we could all get into a “naming” competition of top INTERNATIONAL sailors who did and those who didn’t, which would become just a slagging match (mine is bigger than yours type thing), and by replying to your post in this way, I am risking exactly the theme of you post, but I found that I have been unable to resist replying to such a statement as that which you have made.
"Hobie cat racing is the purest and largest one design racing class in the world. There is none like it. Is it any wonder that the most competitive and most successful competitors come from this class?"
I assume you mean 2 hulled ?
Just for the record... Mine is bigger.
Okay, maybe I was being a bit impirical in my statement. I recant any implication that top sailors do not come from other vessels and that there may be larger classes. However, I still hold to the truth that in order to attain a status of being a top sailor you need to have an over the top organized class that allows for the opportunities to develop skills in all types of conditions. This is where the strength of the Hobie class can be quantified. Many events, professionally managed in many conditions thru numerous generations produce quality talent.
Did not mean to step on any toes. Just trying to make a point that it is not the boat but the quality and talent of the team at the helm.
Once again this forum gets me. Instead of taking the intent of the comments there must be some underlying controversial theme pulled out and stepped on.
With that I leave this forum.
Mark
Hobiebrat1,
I think your original impression that this thread was started to "praise" is off the mark. It started because a guy wondered why an Aussie didn't sail an Austalian made boat; that's all. Just some guy curious about something he didn't have an answer for. Boy, you must have been having a pretty tough day because you come across as being wound-up just a wee bit tight.
In your follow-up post you say you might have been empirical in your comments. You didn't respond to people's opinions as an empiricist, you were just flat out judgemental. Which, it seems to me, tars yourself with the same brush you've applied to others. And now you're all upset and going to take your marbles and go home. That's what little boys do, but this is a forum for big kids; and I think it might be past your bedtime anyway, so it's probably best you toddle off.
If you weren't wound so tight you might have been better able to take your own advice, and read less into the words of others. Forums, are after all, a very difficult medium for communicating, because with tonal quality and body language absent, nothing but words remain. And words alone we're told, are the smallest portion of any communication. About the only thing I could probably say to you without too much risk for misinterpretation is, whiners just piss me off.
Had you chosen to stick around and participate, I should have said that I agree with: 1) your observation that winners put in a lot of time on the water; 2) good sportsmanship is, as you say, as exemplified by Greg Ashby, very admirable; 3) your willingness to concede a point is an asset to skillful communication; 4) I think your absolutely correct that a well managed class advantages sailors.
It's a shame a person of your religious beliefs couldn't find a more collegial way to engage with others. A lot of the "stone throwing" was aimed at the Hobie Co., and if you read over the replies as posted by Matt Miller, you'd have a pretty good idea of civility in response to some strong opinions, through his poised use of calm and well mannered answers. Without, I should add, any sanctimonious judgementalism. Even Wouter Hijink, who seems able to touch a nerve now and then, mainly confined his arguements to forcibly pushing his particular viewpoint, though in the end he too tired and left to 'hide under a rock'. Well I think you get the idea.
Adios
From a German Catamaran Forum
http://translate.google.com/transla...
F18 Capricorn
Author: Torsten
Date: 30.08.2005 15:05
F18 Capricorn now also in Germany
The new speed machines from Australia
The new Capricorn F18 conquers Europe as in the storm. And they get going so far the F18-Szene a crucial step dominated of the American "companies" Hobie and Nacra. With more speed. With exzellentem sail characteristics. With outstanding quality in Design, material and processing.
The Capricorn F18 is built by Jim Boyer and Greg gold universe in the Australian family business Australian High performance Catamarans. Those threw possesses recognized a high know-how and is for example with their Auscat Cats as well as the flyer A-Cats for a long time successfully in the High Tech Cat Business at home.
The Capricorn Design originates from the feather/spring of the German Multi Hull specialist Dr. Martin Fischer and DownUnder in a aufwaendigen development phase up to perfection was refined. An innovative F18 came out, in which each quantity is good ideas.
That speaks for Capricorn:
International tests and first successes suggest a genuine speed projection/lead to the past constructions.
The Australians supply a outstanding processing and use first-class materials (e.g. high-quality university-you-acct-alga-weave, expensive Vinylesterharz etc.).
The new Design united exzellente sail characteristics with a very much responding clean optics with beautiful lines and a good finish.
The trunk:
Completely few Rocker, an inverse nose range and the broadest place within the range of the wasserlinie: These factors make a high dynamic stability and an early sliding possible - also at the wind.
Fewer stampfen - than result of high dynamic stability - prevents typical flow separation in the Topbereich with steep, short wave. And is called: more height, more speed!
The Rigg:
With the Rigg Greg gold universe carried whole work out. With a very rigid, accurately mast and outstanding cut Pentex sails co-ordinated with the F18-Vermessungsregeln he achieves outstanding aerodynamic characteristics.
Standard
- carbon swords
- 16:1 Cunningham from the trapezoid adjustably
- mast rotation from the trapezoid adjustably
- Pentex grosssegel and fock
- nylon silicone Spinnaker
- Spinnaker mountain system
- rudders and sword bags
- Groestes mast profile in the F18 class
- all boats at or under the minimum weight
- control linen in the Beam led
From a German Catamaran Forum
http://translate.google.com/transla...
F18 Capricorn
Author: Torsten
Date: 30.08.2005 15:05
F18 Capricorn now also in Germany
The new speed machines from Australia
The new Capricorn F18 conquers Europe as in the storm. And they get going so far the F18-Szene a crucial step dominated of the American "companies" Hobie and Nacra. With more speed. With exzellentem sail characteristics. With outstanding quality in Design, material and processing.
The Capricorn F18 is built by Jim Boyer and Greg gold universe in the Australian family business Australian High performance Catamarans. Those threw possesses recognized a high know-how and is for example with their Auscat Cats as well as the flyer A-Cats for a long time successfully in the High Tech Cat Business at home.
The Capricorn Design originates from the feather/spring of the German Multi Hull specialist Dr. Martin Fischer and DownUnder in a aufwaendigen development phase up to perfection was refined. An innovative F18 came out, in which each quantity is good ideas.
That speaks for Capricorn:
International tests and first successes suggest a genuine speed projection/lead to the past constructions.
The Australians supply a outstanding processing and use first-class materials (e.g. high-quality university-you-acct-alga-weave, expensive Vinylesterharz etc.).
The new Design united exzellente sail characteristics with a very much responding clean optics with beautiful lines and a good finish.
The trunk:
Completely few Rocker, an inverse nose range and the broadest place within the range of the wasserlinie: These factors make a high dynamic stability and an early sliding possible - also at the wind.
Fewer stampfen - than result of high dynamic stability - prevents typical flow separation in the Topbereich with steep, short wave. And is called: more height, more speed!
The Rigg:
With the Rigg Greg gold universe carried whole work out. With a very rigid, accurately mast and outstanding cut Pentex sails co-ordinated with the F18-Vermessungsregeln he achieves outstanding aerodynamic characteristics.
Standard
- carbon swords
- 16:1 Cunningham from the trapezoid adjustably
- mast rotation from the trapezoid adjustably
- Pentex grosssegel and fock
- nylon silicone Spinnaker
- Spinnaker mountain system
- rudders and sword bags
- Groestes mast profile in the F18 class
- all boats at or under the minimum weight
- control linen in the Beam led
Not so much into "control linen in the Beam led"
but the "Pentex grosssegel and fock"......
SIGN ME UP!!
Who are you????
As for pouting, I really do not like slinging mud and that seems to go on alot in this forum.
I have to beg to differ on the intent of this post. Tom Korz, a friend of mine, posted nothing more that the subject, Australian F18 Nats- Ashby dominating!!! and a picture. There was not a mention of anything about boats or anything, just a subject, a picture and a link to the event site.
Now, there was a reply that started the questioning about all the boat stuff.
At least I don't hide behind a nickname.
Adios para tu amigo!
Mark
"Standard
- carbon swords.."
How do I get some of these? Sometimes I think my sailing style needs a little more swashbuckling 😉
If you think this is bad...you should have seen the old (non-registration required) forum. There are still mud stains on the proverbial wall! Try the Sailing Anarchy forums too.
Really though, we all mostly intend well here. Sometimes we get our fur in a bunch about somebody making a claim about this or that based on some ludicrous piece of information but for the most part, you'll find that 75% of this site is usefull information and we often help a lot of new people out. On the upshot, we don't jump into personal attacks all that often. Most of the online forums tend to de-personalize a lot of the conversations and folks say things that they probably wouldn't say in a face to face conversation. There's also been some pretty hot topics lately that have drawn some lines in the sand...they'll fade away soon enough. Like most people, I've got soft spots under which people can get under my skin pretty quickly. Some of the overzealous brand loyalty stuff (with regard to ANY brand) gets to me pretty quickly.
Please don't go away just yet...give us a chance - undoubtedly you can contribute a LOT here!
Hi Stephen
Cool, you found the way to our swiss-catamaran forum!
the translations are really funny sometimes.
'Bug' translated to 'nose' should be bow and so on!
Greetings from Switzerland
Andi
Swiss 18HT class
http://www.18ht.ch/index-en.html
Hobiebrat1 but didn't you just leave this discussion? 
Anyway it still like “the fastest sailors are winning regardless of the brand they sail”. The Capricorn may be the fastest so far but apparently not fast enough to overcome this basic fundamental observation. 
Best regards
What other sort of a translation would you expect from the SWISS Catamaran site?? This is a country that "sails" at altitude so high above sea level that most of us would get a nosebleed if we sailed there. How “spooky” would it be if all the spectators "yodelled” at you as you sail past? This is a country where they have not one, but three "official" languages. This is country renown for both its cheese and its chocolate, but when they have chocolate covered cheese??? And sailing with a squeaky voice in tight “lederhosen”, just what sort of an English translation would you expect??
Or perhaps babelfish doesnt do to well on grammar and linguistic structures, Darryl 
(I hope Stephen didnt do the translation himself)
Now, do they use 'lederhosen' in Switzerland? I imagined that was Bavaria and to some lesser extent Austria? After a thorough soaking, doesnt leather become rather.. stiff?
So Sam Evans has a Brother!!!????
Obviously not me mate....... my Swiss is not that good
3 official languages? Last time I was there it was 4. Dude, give me a break with your negative comments. This is a country who is very PRO sailing.
Dave, from Ascona, now in Toronto.
Hi all,
one more correction on Capricorn specs., which I don't think is due to translation. Hulls are not built in Australia by AHPC "family company", but in Asia as F18 weight doesn't require the finnese needed to build A class or Taipans. But it is a cheaper source of labour than Australia.
Regards Gary.
"Greg Goldall" translated to "Greg gold universe"
Ok, we all know Greg is fast, but his name is Greg Goodall.
BTW I don't know the source of the translated Text.
Maybe it was translated from English to German and now backwards again.