John,
Sound like you should indicate that the marks should be surrounded by navigable water at all times!
You should do that. Several sailors from this forum already did. I'm a opinionated pain in neck when it comes done to boat design (or general science), but I'm also a pretty easy going person in all other aspects.
Wouter
Bill,
It is not really that I want to be argumentative, but what are you actually saying here.
I quote :
So you yourself are actually saying that the HT is more difficult to sail fast and that it has a jerky unstable feel to it on top of that. Call me stupid, but I would call that the markings of an inferiour design. More difficult to handle and slower; no wonder all the racing crews have switched back to I20's and F18's. There is no real advantage in sailing the HT unless you get hot on sensitive (responsive?) input.
Seems to me that we are all saying the same things only valueing them differently.
Also, we have had quite some weighting data on the HT in the past (like the HT Europeans) and boats measured in at 135 kg not 125 kg. This topic has been discussed over and over again in the past and the end result was always quite clear. HT's were over minimum weight, not under it. Sorry.
Wouter
Wouter,
For me it is logical to have a boat that is a little (maximum 5kg) superior from the limit. You can place the weight where you would like... Having to had some weight to be at the class regulation is not a the way it should be done (in my point of view).
Now a minimum weight should not be the only objective and I think you agree with that. Personnaly, I believe that 180kg is much too heavy for a Racing Boat. It was in the past more a problem of technology than it would be today. Now I do understand that we need to set rules to have a class and accept it, I just feel that 180kg in low wind situation is much to heavy.
I'm not saying that "Z Class is better than Y Class", or "Z is the Best"... not at all. On paper the class is very open, inovative and this is great for our sport.
Possibly the current Manufacturer has done mistakes (who did not), so let's give them constructive input to improve a class that is "interesting" on the paper...
This is what I'm trying to do with MattiaSport that accepted to build two prototype of 18HT (on my request), and future will tell us if our prototypes are good enough to be launched as a serie or not. Nevertheless we do not pretend to have invented the wheel, but we are working with existing products and try to make them work together.
Sure we will have plenty of opprotunities to talk about this later on.
Jr
Wouter,
Have you weighed the US HT fleet? (no) Have you lifted them at regatta's (no) -
I'm not going to weigh my boat #8 and I didnt weigh my first HT #22 and I dont really care what the fleet weighs now that we are not OD HT racing, so this is really a silly discussion.
My point was that Bimare should be able to build a strong boat at 180kg and that some of the US fleet was built lighter than later boats. I dont solid data to back this up, but I did lift them and look inside the hulls.
As far as the feel of the HT - its responsive, it’s sensitive. Call it jerky, twitchy, whatever - I like it.
Go sail an A cat and then lets discuss the subtle differences between the experience of sailing a light weight boat and a heavier one. Until then I don’t think you have a true point of reference.
I went from a Dart 16 to an HT and was blown away. Then I sailed an i20 and it felt sluggish. Now I have an Acat. So that’s my point of reference.
Now, the i20 does feel stable, on certain points of sail it really lights up, but I don’t get the same feel of acceleration on it as I did on the HT. And the OD HT racing made you concentrate or you got spanked. I believe this made me a better sailor.
and yes I agree with you - you are a pain in the butt.
Bill
Geezus Bill, you do remember who I am and what I sail, don't you ?
Do I really need to remind you that I have been linked to the Texel committee and that both the Texel measurers as the SCHRS (ISAF) measurers NEVER measured the 18HT to be below 130 kgs ! Texel actually never measured one below 132 kg. Then of course Andreas Lutz publiced the weighting results on the 18HT's at the European Championships at Rimini and surprise, suprise all the weights were a bit higher then claimed by the builders. Sadly the 18HT forum is gone so we can't look up that post anymore. No I don't see being overweight by a few kg as a problem, it is not going to hurt much at all. HOWEVER, claiming to be many kg underweight while being several kg's overweight is another matter. And yes I think it is save to say that a bunch of other people feel the same about that.
Also do I need to remember that I was there at the US springfever 2002 regatta ?
Of course I had to check out what the competition was doing. So :
*** Have you lifted them at regatta's [color] YES ! at springfever 2002 exactly
"... Should be able ..." = yes
"... will build ..." = to be determined - Sadly, some are skeptical due to past experiences.
Besides I never wrote down or said that Bim shouldn't be able to produce a strong 180kg F18. I do think that Bim regulary makes questionable decisions in the way of build and laminates but indeed I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt in this area when it comes down to the (weight is not a problem) F18.
Have you lost your mind totally ?
I'm actually sailing in the lightest spinnaker doublehander class in the world today (F16 = 107 kg min. when fully fitted ready to sail). My homebuild boat is probably a few kg overweight, 110-112 kg, but still any other production doublehander out there is (seriously) heavier from my perspective. No M20, No 18HT, no "Bull [censored] boat" XX is lighter. The only exception to this that I will consider is the South African Mosquito+spi (= grandfathered F16 = 103 - 105 kg)
So are you telling me to go out and do some more lightweight sailing before I can argue with you and your 20 kg (if not more) heavier HT ?
You must be joking.
Bloody hell mate, a Dart 16 ? No wonder you were blown away. That dart 16 does not register very high in the picking order of catamarans. It is like a moped among roadbikes. You could have jumped on about any other catamaran out there and have felt equally blown away.
All the other comments are personal feelings and you have every right to have those. I certainly won't deny you those.
And I remember our conversations in the past very well. There is not a day that goes by that I rejoyce in knowing that all the vocal 18HT sailors of then have sold off their HT's in favour of another boat type.
You can say about me what you will, pain in the neck or whatever, at least I stayed true to my word and stuck with my boat and class.
Wouter
Jr.
Indeed, I don't think that being underweight relative to the class boat minimum is attractive. I hate slugging a corrector weight around and I don't believe that being a few kg overweight hurts that much. I think that being on class weight or less then 3 kg above it is what you want. 5 kg over is still acceptable, but is stretching it a bit. More than 7 kg overweight is not acceptable in a new boat.
Ohh, definately. I would easily trade-off weight for some extra stiffness. Just not too much weight.
Well, racing is racing wether you do it in a F1 car or your kids tricycles. However I think 180 kg's is much more than an F18 needs to be a strong and dependable boat. I don't think you can drop by say 50 kg's but somewhere between 150 and 160 kg would have been a very good choice for the F18 class. Still easy enough to build down to that weight without more advanced techniques. And those 20 to 30 kg will still make a noticeable difference when handling that boat on land and the water.
I don't agree with that. It has always been a problem of economics over a problem in technology. Several classes that are older then the F18 saw much lighter boats that held up very well. F18 was started in 1993 or so ? By that time technology was already pretty wide spread to build good 18 foot boats at 150-160 kg. Several boats of the 80's like the Prindle 18 and Dart 18 were build at 162 kg and 140 kg back then. Both were pretty succesful classes internationally.
Well, despite my "pain in the neck" status I can garantee everybody that I'm in full agreement with that.
Ohh definately although my hollidag time is coming to an end, so I won;t be able to hang around this forum to the same extend as I have been doing lately.
Greetings
Wouter
Jr
Hi wouter
we weighed our boats lasttime in autom 2005 in Morges with a professionally scale and very reliable.
All the new boats are now very close at minimum wheight!
Between 128.5 kg - 135 kg. AND the Bims are on the light side.
You refer to the measurments in Rimini 2004
My old ventilo and the first generation Eagle was measured there with 145kg (but these measures where quite unreliable and done with two scales in the sand ....).
But all the Bim measured then 135 kg - 140kg.
The problem with the earlier Jav's was, that some of them were build for the worrel at this time ...
One thing I don't understand is, why do you have to convince everbody, that the Javelin is such a bad boat when there are people around, who actually like these boats?
POPCORN HERE! Get Your Popcorn here and enjoy the show! 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.thegiftbasketcafe.com/cafe/images/SS_PopcornTin.jpg)
If there's one thing sailing related I have to look forward to in the cold winter months - here it is.
How much for a medium popcorn?
I would like a hot and salt one please.
Jake thanks for that Popcorn 
Hello Cat-friends,
A Boat should win regattas and not beauty-contests.
Let us just be surprised !
I will never talk in a negative way about a boat before I sailed it.
In Morges 2005 we weighed al the new 18HT.
All were between 128kg - 134kg 128kg was the new “Javelin 2 Carbon Edition”
total was 18 boats at the start
9. Javelin 2
6. Ventilos / 2 new Ventilo 2005 wavepiercer
3. new Eagles 2005 wavepiercer
greet from Switzerland
Steve
Chairman Swiss 18HT Class Association
Thanks you Andreas,
You know why I respect and even like you ( 
) ?
Because you don't hide the facts.
I refered indeed to the 2004 Rimini measurements and you confirmed for us that :
Still a good weight for an 18 footer in my book, mind you. Just not 127 kg or say as was claimed.
I'm very happy for you all that at last measurement the Bims into the 130 kgs range.
Actually I'm not out to convince everybody that the Bim is a bad boat. I actually didn't write anything like that in my other posts. I'm only calling BS on some of the claims. If some-one, for example, writes that the Bim didn't have leaking daggerboards while there is a score of (former) owners who will testify that they did then that is absurd. And I will call that out. I've actually seen that myself at Springfever. Same with some of the other issues.
No I see that some-one claims that I should hold my tongue because some FORMER HT owner is a more respected sailor then me !
Let me turn this around, why do the HT guys try to convince other sailors that these well documented HT issues are not true ?
Lets me give an example in reverse : If somebody would post publically on this forum that the Taipan 4.9 jib setup is a real pain in the shins ehhh neck then I would say that they are absolutely right. That setup is a right nuance, it is too far back on the trampoline, you hit it with your shins and it makes tacking with two on board a limbo dance.
Does that degrade me ? Or even the larger Taipan 4.9 design ? No it is the truth, it makes the Taipan 4.9 less good (bad ?) boat then it could be.
That is the truth and there is no denying it.
It is the same way with the Jav-2 and even the general 18HT class.
When I write that the 18HT class has a serious problem getting out of the European Alps then that is just an honest appreciation of the situation, not something that sprung from an implicet hate for the Jav-2 or the 18HT class.
When I write that the hulls of the Jav-2 are inferiour to several other hulls out there than that is a honest appreciation of how they behave in waves/chop, gusts/strong winds and collisions. I can quote more then enough resources that back this up. The rear beam is too close to the water and the bow buries too easily under spinnaker in a gust or when powering up in a blow. This is all pretty well documented. Otherwise talk to a score of respected sailors like Dave Lennard, Will Sunnocks and Gerard Loos. Indeed the Ventilo 18HT may well be better in this (I think it is).
When I say that 10.5 mtr masts are really too tall for HT platform then that is an honest appreciation of the science enclosed in boat design. The fact that the HT's have shortened their mast since the foundation of the class only underlines the truthfulness of my comment.
No now of this is because I'm supposedly hate the Jav's or HT's, it is simply the darn truth.
But I will admit to one thing, I'm a right pain in the neck when it comes down to statements that so obviously go against better judgement and generally accepted truths. And during winter time I'm extra "mean", because I'm a sucker for a good debate.
Wouter