Calling All Hobie 14 sailors-past, present, future

Approx how much and how are they equipped??

Bob C

Bob, I e-mailed and asked him questions, and here are his answers:

Price Estimates are at this time: But may be less and if we get constant
orders of H14's and whether we get them from Europe or Brazil.
1-3 Boats $5,780
4-8 Boats $5,345
9-15 Boats $5,159
16-24 Boats $4,972
25+ Boats $4,848

Europe is the place Doug indicated I can get them. But I am looking into
Brazil as I may be able to get them even for less due to the exchange rate.

I was thinking having the boats shipped late Feb and Here by May 2003.

We want to use as many as possible for our own youth program, the more the marrier. We are thinking 4 minimum 8 max for our program. We are going to add turbo kits to half the boats.

25 per container is the max, but sounds like they will ship more. I am getting
great interest in people ordering the H14's and am posting on the forum just
to see who might be interested.
I am going to finalize the orders with Doug Skidmore and will get back with
you. Plus I am trying to convince Doug to let me contact Hobie Brazil as I
am sure I could get the boats much less through them. Doug indicated some
issue of getting the boats from Brazil shipping and getting containers from
them. I guess he feels it would be easier to get the H14's from Europe
because they already have containers coming from Europe. But of course I
will want to check out all the options to get the boats at the best price
possible. I think Hobie Brazil would welcome the business.

Miles Moore
SAIL/CART
www.sail-s.com

Mary-

I saw a Hobie 14 Turbo on Ebay for $475 today. I don't remember if thats the current bid or buy it price.

thom

Hey, I am not promoting the idea of people buying new Hobie 14's. I was just curious myself. The guy had said that Dragoons were too expensive for youth boats, and yet the prices he is talking about for new imported Hobie 14's are higher than the Dragoon price that was given to me by Hobie Cat Company.

There have to be lots of old Hobie 14's around -- for people who really want a Hobie 14, it is just a matter of finding them.

If these boats are indeed for a youth sailing program, I find it EXTREMELY strange that the kids would be making the decision about what boat they want. The fact that adults would just say, "Okay," is very disturbing to me. The Hobie 14 is a fun boat, but you don't buy kids a bunch of expensive new boats just so they can have fun. The 14 is not exactly going to lead kids down the path to the Olympics -- or even to weekend regattas. It would be a step backward for youth sailing in the United States, in my humble opinion.

And, personally, I have always wanted a Hobie 14, but not enough to pay for a new one.

Hello, I am Mindy and I am 10 yrs. old. Like my dad, I do not think a spinnaker is important. I also do not think winning and losing is important. As long as I get to race, I am satisfied. Like most kids, if I were to race I would want the Hobie 14. In fact, I am going to race and #14 is the one I want. Some reasons I want it is because of how fun it is to sail. I also like it because of how freely and lively it sails. For another reason it has a reasonable sized jib and sail area. It is also just like a Hobie 16 only smaller, and the Hobie 16 is one of my favorite cats. I don't understand why Mary is disturbed that kids are choosing their own boats if they are going to be the ones sailing it anyways. Shouldn't they be able to?

I think we should start a kids forum so kids have a place to talk about sailing.

I also asked my little brother, who is 4 yrs. old, what he wanted to be when he grew up. He replied ''I want to be a sailor, because I like being a sailer.'' [color] [color]

The Dragoon price is officially $5,895.00, so a new H14 is less than a Dragoon (at the un-official price I gave Mary). And yes there are lots of used H14's around and we were just given another H14 that is in real good shape, so we will be using new and used H14's. Once again the prices I gave, which to tell you the truth Mary I did not want you posting on the forum until I finalized the prices (should of told you this) may go down further once and if I get to speak with Hobie Brazil. So don't think that the prices are finalized yet. Also, there are some adults and kids who want new H14's regardless of the price. We also may have a grant available soon for our club and so will be able to get new H14's with this grant, remember this is a club choice.

What is strange about kids deciding what boat they want? They had the opportunity to sail the Dragoon and Wave at the fast and fun event, and have sailed several H14's for a while now. They were simply asked what they liked best, and sense there is no official junior age multihull, they chose the H14. I let Mindy my daughter read the post in this thread and let her respond as well, as she felt she wanted to respond.

Also we are not just buying a bunch of expensive boats for the fun of it. We have an active club; they plan to race them, etc, etc. Actually, we do not care at all about the Olympics (highly over rated), as most of the kids will never pursue the Olympics nor Tornado racing, and the likely hood of another multihull getting into the Olympics is highly unlikely, especially now that the Olympic committee is looking at scaling down the number of the events in the Olympics. We are more interested in preparing the kids to sail for life and the enjoyment of sailing, and yes even prepare them for some big races if they want such as the Pan Am Games, World Games (ISAF), & H16 worlds all of which cost much less to prepare for and get into than the Olympics. So in our view the H14 is a step forward. Oh yes I should add that H14's are all over the world like the H16, and still built on 4 continents. Now lets see the Dragoon is built on one continent, no used market for the boat, only in a few boats available in various countries, etc., etc., so I don't see the Dragoon as a stop forward.

I know some are going to say well IT (Dragoon) HAS A SPINNAKER! Well just look around at junior age racing such as with Laser, Laser Radial, and Optimist, Sabot, etc., None of these classes have spinnakers and are going strong! At a recent Sabot regatta, they had over 400 sailors racing. None of our kids or for that matter the adults at our club are interested in Spinnakers, we do have several boats in our area with spinnaker that the kids can experience and most are just not interested. To tell you the truth our club would go with the Wave before ever considering the Dragoon, and now with the new Hobie Bravo, which cost even less than the Wave, and from all reports is even more exciting to sail than the Wave, we may be adding the Bravo to our list. The kids have seen pictures of it and think it would be fun but stated it has no jib so they can not sail together (two on each boat).

So when we looked at a junior boat (youth boat is the H16) we looked at all the advantages, etc. and the H14 to us stood out as the obvious choice. Now you or anyone else have more than a right to disagree with us and maybe we can discuss this issue more on this forum. I will add that I have said it and I will say it again, that ''the most important issues with making a junior sailing program successful in North America is cost and the fun factor.'' Just go to a Laser or Opti event and just watch how much fun the kids have, and with no spinnaker imagine that. What we need to do is put our biases aside (as much as possible), and look past whether a boat has two hulls, if it has a spinnaker, etc. and truly look at what is best for the kids and helping them love to sail, not if they want to go to the Olympics, etc. Don't get me wrong I do believe the Olympics is a worthy cause, its just not a path I think initially we need to even worry about, and is really clouding our vision of what is important to our kids. Seems to me the Olympics and spinnakers are more important to the adults than the kids, and I might add WINNING & LOSING. Heck Mary just look at your own Wave Nationals as an example, are the kids at this event sorry that the boat has no spinnaker, or that the Wave is not a Olympic class or preparation boat?

Now with all I have said I want to add that these are my opinions and are the opinions of most of our club members, but we are not saying by any means that we are absolutely right, so please do not take offense to what I am saying. My post is intended to answer some questions and is friendly conversation, which I hope will develop into some real discussion on this topic. I have to add that at our club we also emphasize total inclusion, which mean we include those with disabilities, and is the reason we make decision a bit different than non-accessible clubs. Yes the H14 can be fitted with old style Trapseats.

Oh yes just to show you we are not all hot air go to our website at http://www.sail-s.com/main/sail/Sailing_Group/Sailing_Group_MAIN.htm

Miles,

Will you be having any of the kids trying out the SoloRight on the Hobie 14s? Please keep me informed of any results.

GARY

Hi, Mindy,
Don't pay any attention to me. I am just an old lady from a different generation and I grew up in a world where adults made decisions and kids were not given a vote. I realize things are different now, but I still can't help thinking it is strange. Perhaps you are fortunate to be growing up in a time when children have so many rights and their opinions are sought by adults.

The Hobie 14 may be the perfect boat for your club. But many people are working on getting junior catamaran sailing programs going around the country, and they are looking at boats that are versatile enough to be used from ages 10-12 up to age 18, as a singlehander or two-person boat, single trapeze or double trapeze, main only, or main and jib, or main, jib and spinnaker, so it will give kids a lot of different options according to their wants, needs, ability levels, etc. Just because a boat has a spinnaker available does not mean you ever have to use it. But there might be some older kids who WOULD like to learn to use spinnakers and would like to learn all the things they would need to know if they start sailing the bigger cats or want to crew for somebody on a bigger cat.

The Hobie 14 is a fun, simple boat, but it will ALWAYS be a fun, simple boat. Some people can be happy with a boat like that their whole lives. But some kids, as they get older, need something that can be souped up a bit so they can keep learning new things and don't get bored with sailing.

I hope this explains my opinions a little better. And please understand that everybody in the catamaran world is happy to know that you have a group of kids at your club who love sailing catamarans of whatever type, and we hope that you will continue sailing all your lives.

Hello Gary and Mary!

Gary yes we will be looking into a solo-right for the H14, and will need to discuss this with you. The H14 will also be set up with Trapseats (the old style) as we will be teaming kids up with those kids with disAbilities, that is one of the things that makes our club different and is one of the reason the other cats on the market don't work for us. We plan to hit the racing seen next summer with boats equipped with and without Trapseats so the solo-right system will be something we will need to get going.

Also, Mary can't the H14 be sailed with or without a jib? Also are kids going to sail the Dragoon until they are 18? Its a small boat and will be difficult to get two big teenagers on. Seems to make perfect sense to go from the H14 (turbo) to the H16 and to hook the kids into the H16 racing seen, and all the great events. I explained my view in my previous post so I wont go through that all again. Well our club may have to go it alone (actually with a few other clubs) but seems you all are heading down the expensive route and with kids that care about issues that none of our kids care about. Our kids just want to do some racing, and have fun. We are probably just not as serious as you all are. We are not in Florida as we live in Idaho and Eastern Washington so that may have something to do with it. So we wish you all the best with your junior and youth efforts, and your selection of a boat.

Actually, a couple of the kids have seen your post etc., which is good for them to see other peoples opinions. They dont still quite understand you but seem to make sense of what you are saying. Of course, now they are also interested in the new Bravo, so it looks like we are heading in very different directions, and heck that is ok. As for our kids having a choice, we are big on choice with a lot of discussion. Having the Fast & Fun program was a big eye opener for us with being able to sail the Dragoon and other cats, but the kids for most want to have fun and race to learn, and then move on to H16 & Trapseat racing, etc. Well I think I am wearing out this topic, so I will leave enough well alone.

Thanks for your comments and please if anyone wants a new H14 please contact me at @sail-s.com">cart@sail-s.com

How about using Taipan 4.9 or Bimare Javelin 16s for the trainer? Both these boats can be ordered with or without spinnaker, so spinnakers could be added later. Both these boats are lighter than the either of these Hobies being discussed, thus are easier for young crews to handle. Most importantly these boats more closely emulate the latest trend in modern cats and therefore most likely future Olympic catamarans.

We are talking about a trainer for our youth, correct?

Miles Moore, Mary, and Catsailor,

First off, Miles are you the same guy that tried unsuccessfully to bring a container of A-Cats into the USA from Europe, along with Wouter? Just wondering if you are the same guy. I also wonder how this proposed deal will set with USA Hobie dealers.

Mary, I agree with you that a Junior trainer is necessary in the USA. I also agree with Mary that the Hobie 14, while being a great little boat, is not suitable as the youth trainer. This boat would be a step back as a youth trainer, as it is yesterday's tech.

Catsailor1, I am intriqued by the concept of using a Taipan 4.9 or Javelin 16 as a trainer. These boats are lightweight, tough, fast, and responsive. I do have a couple of questions, however. First, are these boats too expensive? Second, are they too powerful for young sailors or are they available with smaller rigs? If so, the larger rigs could be added later for the bigger kids.

This is interesting stuff.

Miles,
Was Mindy serious about having a forum for kids to talk about sailing? If so, Rick will be happy to set one up. I think it would be very interesting to see what current children and teens have to say, as well as those who were sailing during their childhood and teens and are now young adults looking back at what could have been done differently for them.

Getting kids talking to each other could be an important part of the project to get more kids sailing and keep them sailing. Tell Mindy I think that is a great idea.

Not to mention the Mystere 4.3. No commercial interest.

49er,

I can answer the cost question.

I've been looking at the cost of various F16hp boats, including the Taipan 4.9 and Jav 16. New, $9-11K, depending on options. But used Taipain 4.9s are extremely reasonable and could be had for the same price as a new Dragoon--ah, and look what you'd be getting! Even though used Taipans are primarily in Australia, the exchange rate still makes them a real deal even considering shipping.

Mary yes Mindy is vary serious about starting a junior/youth forum. Mindy was disappointed she could not login in as a new forum member due to her age. The message indicated she needs to be 13, so we may want to looks at some way to allow kids to logo on as independents with parental consent.

Also 49er I never tried to get a shipment of A Cats to the US as I have never even sailed an A Cat, even though I sure would like to sail one. And of course as you know I am totally in disagree with the H14 not being a good trainer, this is just not the case. The H14 & H16 already have a great international resource of events and organizations to handle a junior/youth event. As one the boys in our club said the H14 is a lot like the Laser in its sensitivity to balance, etc.

I know the T4.9, etc. are hot boats to some people but there is a lot of issues in getting a junior/youth program going in these boats, or even with the Dragoon. I am just thinking of resource-ing as much as possible. We just cannot forget cost in the big picture. The Sabot class is very successful junior class due in large to cost and its availability. Do we really want to wait 10 years or so to get something going with new boats when there already exist the boats all over the world, and the organization capacity? I am thinking globally.

I think a discussion like this on a junior/youth forum would be interesting but we need to stay out of it and see what they come up with. I am really enjoying this much needed discuss.

Dear Mary,
I know some kids would like to learn how to sail with a spinnaker. I didn't mean all kids didn't want to learn how to sail with a spinnaker. I simply meant that most kids don't care if they have a spinnaker or not on their boat. You sound like a very nice person and I would like to meet you some time. I was wondering why you couldn't put a spinnaker on a Hobie 14? People put spinnakers on Waves. Can't you grow with the #14 and then move to the #16? Isn't the16 racing challenging? I noticed by reading my writing that I might be being rude. If I am, I am very sorry I'm just trying to explain my opinion. Thank you so much for writing to me, it feels good to have someone to talk to even if it's just in one letter. What kind of boat do you like? Mom says she can tell you're a wonderful person by your writing. I like you.

Thank you for writing.
Mindy

Mindy,

It was nice to hear from you. You are a good writer. I have not read a posting this forum from someone your age, previous to yours. Thanks for telling us your thoughts.

I have a good feeling about your father. He is promoting a great form of recreation and exercize for many kinds of able bodied individuals, from children to disAbled adults, to everyone in-between.

Nice to hear from you Mindy.

GARY

Miles,

Just transfer the righting tool that you already have. You will have to shorten the suspension lines a little bit to make it fit on the Hobie 14. One testimonial I recevied was from a Dad who was able to allow his two children to sail without him being on board; the two kids were able to right the Hobiecat by themselves.

As I understand your post, the 14's will be fitted with trapseats. So I guess you are training young disAbled sailors?

Keep up the great work Miles!

GARY

What a great thread! I am a little confused about what everyone is defining a "youth boat". Is it a boat designed to introduce young sailors into sailing, or is it a boat to train young sailors into more advanced sailing and racing? I think these are two VERY different requirements and instead of saying "this boat vs. that boat", let's define the requirements for a youth boat and then look around. It's very likely that there is a single boat that can meet both of these requirements but I believe we are talking about two different things.

[color] Youth boat for introducing new young sailors (age 8-16):
A) affordable (so the parents can actually buy one) - what are comparable youth dingy costs?
B) simply rigged
C) reasonably powered
D?) should it be strictly a two up boat? One up? or have the option for both?
E?) Spinnaker? NO WAY! A spinnaker is not for beginners! Two sails is more than enough for this group to focus on.

[color] "Trainer Boat" for advanced youths (age 13-18):
A) moderately affordable
B) not quite so simple rigging
C) more powerfull (spinnaker?)
D) two up
E) now let's look at a spinnaker

Jake,
There is no definition, and there are two or three different theories about how to handle junior/youth sailing (and it also gets complicated because some people have different definitions for "junior" and "youth", but I just use them interchangeably).

In my opinion, all kids should be in junior sailing programs on prams (Optimist dinghies) from ages 8-12. At that point most kids start moving onto Lasers and Club 420's and a couple of other popular classes, and they usually sail those until they are 18 years old.

I think the idea is that we need a catamaran as another option for kids during those years from 12-18. And now there is going to be a Youth Development Class or something like that for kids age 19-22, and that would involve training them on actual Olympic class boats.

Now, some people in the multihull group think one cat can work for that whole age range from 12-18. Other people think we need two cats, one for ages 12-16 and another for 16-18. Since the Hobie 16 has been sort of considered the default youth boat for a long time, some think we need something like the Hobie Wave or Dragoon or Mystere 4.3 for the younger kids and the Hobie 16 for the 16-18-year-olds.

I am one who thinks we should use the same boat for ages 12-18. The Mystere 4.3, the Dragoon and the Hobie Wave all have the ability to be an extremely versatile platform that can go from very simple and basic to as complex as you want to make it. All have the ability to be sailed with either one or two people, and with a variety of sail combinations. (And they can be used to teach adults as well as children.) By the time kids are 15 or 16 years old, they will probably be at a fairly complex level with the boat. It does not make sense to me to, at that point, move them onto a Hobie 16, which is a much more basic boat, for two years, and then put them onto a Tornado.

In addition, it will be hard enough to convince yacht clubs and other sailing programs to add a multihull to their fleet, without telling them, "By the way, you will have to have two different boats." One 420 is a lot cheaper than two cats -- and takes up a lot less space. Same thing goes for parents who want to buy one for their kids.

Isn't NAMSA supposed to be working with the Multihull Council on getting all this sorted out? It would be nice if a committee could get together and say, "This is how it is going to be," so we can move forward and make it work. We're never going to get anywhere until we have a plan.There are probably parents out there who would be willing to buy a boat for their kids if they just knew what boat to buy.

And as I have said before, it doesn't have to be the same boat everywhere -- there is already a big fleet of 4.3's in Ohio, and there are a lot of Waves in Florida, and maybe somebody will start a fleet of Dragoons somewhere. But there should be some guidelines for existing organized sailing programs that want to add catamarans. One boat or two different sizes? When we get admitted to Junior Olympic Festivals, what type(s) of cats are going to be used? What type/size of cats are going to be used at the annual U.S. Youth Multihull Championships? Are Hobie 16's going to continue to be used for the ISAF Youth World Championships?

Talk, talk, talk. Lots of questions and no answers. This has been going on for years.

The only successful junior catamaran sailing program I know of is Larry Hale's Boy Scout Camp at St. George's Island in the Florida Panhandle. What we need to do is clone Larry and set up camps like that around the country.

I should add there is another theory, like Mindy's, about starting kids out on 14's and moving up to 16's. And it sounds logical if we are working strictly within the catamaran community. However, NAHCA has worked for years to get youth programs going on Hobie 16's, and it has not been very successful, mostly because beach-cat sailors do not have much infrastructure for ongoing programs. And that is why the Multihull Council is now taking a whole different approach in trying to get catamarans accepted into the mainstream sailing world, where the infrastructures do exist. I do not know how to say this without having the Hobie 14 and 16 people think I am bashing their boats, because I am not; however, I think that if we are going to make any progress with the establishment that is dominated by monohull sailors, we need a boat that is more high tech and that looks more like what they will think of as a "real boat" and that we can reasonably argue is providing an "Olympic path" for our multihull sailors. If the Hobie 16 had been accepted as our Olympic catamaran, it would be a different story. Although catamaran kids might prefer the Hobie 14 and Hobie 16, I think the problem is that we do not have enough catamaran kids, so we are now trying to attract the monohull kids.

To do that, we have to deal with a lot of politics and elitist attitudes. It is not about trying to push kids into SERIOUS racing. It is just that we have to jump through all these hoops just to get to the point of being included at all in the huge world of youth sailing so we can at least show other kids how much fun cats are, regardless of whether they want to race them. Right now monohulls and multihulls are in parallel worlds that do not mingle much.

Hey everybody,
Let me start by saying the I am turning 18 in 3 days and will no longer technically be a youth according to US Sailing and etc. I have been racing catamarans since I was 12 and have been to every national youth catamaran championship in that time (well only three but still everyone). There has been a lot of progress in promotion of youth sailing. I believe that the strongest help to this effort has been the U.S. Sailing Multihull council and particularly Mr. Arthur Stevens.
More youths do need to voice their opinions (such as Mindy). It is an excellent idea to make a youth forum, but one for youths not one that adults talk on. Kids need to discuss this and talk about it without the interuption of adults until the conversation is over. It is almost an experiment and it must be a controlled experiment to work effectivley. If the adults want to pitch ideas about possible boats then let the kids talk then review it and look at it to see what is the most realistic possibility that will provide the best oppurtunity for youth sailors then do it, whatever works.
I have tried to help out youth sailing in many ways but it is tough. It is frustrating to have U.S. Sailing, the NAHCA and NAMSA working in 3 different forces, why not join up? Who cares if you don't have the same opinions and ideas? Everyone involved loves the sport and wants to promote it and get youths involved for the future.
Infact, I am not even going to bother with my opinion on what should be the trainer or youth boat. Because this conversation, like all the others will just get burried and forgotten about because not enough people will read this and make it a joint effort to act on it.
What you need to do... is make a youth forum (as Mindy brilliantly suggested) and have everyone interested in the promotion of this sport monitor is and draw conclusions from there.
-Todd Riccardi
Hobie 14 #14
Hobie 18 #16797 (just sold)

P.S.
I have been toying with the idea of having a youth championships(for fun) on hobie 14s in Newport, RI in the spring on the boats that are used in the frostbite series. If there would be any interest let me know. It would be a good preview of how kids like the 14 and we arleady have 3 or 4 youths in the series and more in the surrounding area that may be joining.

P.P.S.
The Hobie 14 is DEFINATLEY NOT a step back in the promotion of youth sailing. As long as the youths are on the water its a step in the right direction, eventually they wil lee the bigger and faster boats and upgrade when they are good enough. And I have heard many excellent sailors say "if you can sail a 14 well, you can sail anything".

Todd,

I agree - most directives to establish a universal youth catamaran program are not 'universal'. However, I am part of NAMSA and the purpose of my previous post was to try and assimilate a little information on what people think is important in a youth boat. I think a lot of times the 'speed junkie' adults (I fall into that category) want a little too much complication in a youth boat and I'm glad to hear from some younger sailors in this thread - hope to hear from some more. Let's forgo the 'this boat & that boat' for a moment and say what is important to have in a youth boat. This is not a worthless thread and it won't simply get buried. Before we are going to get recognition within other sailing organizations, we have to be focused and organized ourselves.

How it works for us in our club: Maybe it will be of use for someone! Sorry for the long post!

Sense our club is a totally inclusive club we do things a certain way. First off we are not a club that is tied down with kids with mental/cognitive disAbilities as some on this forum may know if you turn your club into a development disability group you do a lot of baby sitting, etc. Nothing against this group but it is a completely different world. Luckily we were smart enough to know how to serve this population so they do not feel left out, actually we were voted by a local development disAbility org. as the most fun program for the this summer - for those interested email me it's a long story. So with that said we deal with kids without disAbilities and kids with physical disAbilities. Once again, if they also have a cognitive disability we have the means to get support for that. Therefore, for those who want total inclusion in their clubs there is a way to do this and not get buried by the effort and in fact your program will be better for it mentally and with participation numbers.

In a nut shell here is the boats we use and how we run our program.

Ages 6-10 is our PRE-JUNIOR sailors, they sail the Access Dinghy 2.3 and they also get to crew on bigger boats such as the H14 with or without Trapseats and the Access Dinghy 303.

Ages 11-14 is the JUNIOR age sailors and they sail the Access Dinghy 303 and Hobie 14 as a turbo or not, and with or without Trapseats, and of course crew on the H16 with or without Trapseats.

Ages 15-19 is our youth age sailors and they race the Access Dinghy 303 or H16 with or without Trapseats, and I might add with the Trapseat Spinnakers. And this is as far as we go with our boats. Now if some kids want to go to other classes, etc. great at least they have a strong foundation. If you can sail a H14 or 16 in a blow you can sail anything. Also the Access Dinghy and H16 have strong class racing, etc.

I will add that our kids love to sail together - kids with kids with and without disAbilities, which adds a lot of fun to our programs and also is making our program grow and get media coverage. So in our club there is a saying, "If it isn't accessible we don't sail it" Our club motto is "Sailing For Everyone." Our club is part of Sailability International, which is an international sailing organization that promotes sailing for those with and without disAbilities. So you will not see us sailing boats that are not accessible.

And here are some other issues to think about. My wife and I went to a Hobie fleet meeting about two years ago and we set through the whole meeting listening to them talked about what beer company sponsor they were going to get for their regattas, plus they joked about their drunken sailors they had at last years regatta. My wife of course was not impressed and I might add we have never allowed our kids to go to that regatta (along with other families), which is unfortunate because they are so close to us. Our club also does not have Sunday regattas, etc. because first, some have to travel far and need the day to go home or they are religious, etc. I can&'t tell you the numbers of times I have heard people say "I can't go to that regatta because it is on the weekend and I need to get back for work on Monday or the kids have something to do on Monday." So we have found being sensitive to these and other issues increase our club participation within our area and those traveling to our events, and making it conducive environment for junior/youth sailing.

Also, Mary you indicate the only successful youth program you know of is Larry Hale's Boy Scout Camp at St. George's Island in the Florida Panhandle )which I do believe they use H16's (most likely out of availability, which I hope it is more than that), but there is also a Hobie group in Baja California and other areas. It would be interesting to here how they are running these programs, etc. You can actually contact these groups via the NAHCA in the youth section of the website.

Seems NAHCA has just now caught on to the vision of junior/youth sailing, and Mary you are right they have not been very successful because of their junior/youth infrastructure, unlike Hobie sailing in other parts of the world, but I think this is changine. In addition, you are also right about the difficulty of convincing a yacht club to include cats (whether its one or two types of cats). I for one see no reason to beat them over the head with cats, and I do not see these yacht clubs anytime soon including us. Chris Mitchell the designer of the Access Dinghies has traveled the world and he has told me that the attitudes of almost all yacht clubs he has visited all have the same elitist and exclusion attitude. He told me to skip the yacht clubs! I have found yacht clubs in my area to be resistant to dinghy sailing and especially sailing for people with disAbilities. So yacht clubs seem to be maybe the wrong way to go. As for cost I also know that 420's go for a fairly good price and that I could by a used H16 and H14 for the price of one 420 (a nice 420). I just think hooking into yacht clubs may not be the way to go. So an inclusive club of sailors of all ages with and without disAbilities has tremendous political power, actually on Nov 12 we are meeting with the county officials to finalize the details our new sailing club facility (water sport facility). When you come to the county officials and indicate you can help them with accessibility issues (new regulations from the ADA Access Board guidelines), make their facility a standard that the rest of the county will use as a standard, a place that media will grab onto, a place where ALL people will love to come, etc., etc. they sit up and listen and not just with supportive words but also financial support. It's also a strong message when you show up to a county meeting with junior & youth, adults, people in wheelchairs, etc. Many times example (seeing it) is stronger than words. We have also teamed up with the local college, rehab facility, parks & rec., county to work together to run boater safety course, boater awareness events, etc. We are also developing a boater video series to discuss accessibility of sailing, safety, sailing (monohull & multihulls), as previous they only dealt with powerboats and jet skis, with a light taste of sailing. So to me we need to place more of our efforts on county and government groups, instead of wasting our time on biased yacht clubs that have no interested in multihulls and sure don’t want to see multihulls push in our their territory. Of course our club is for both multihull and monohull which makes use even harder to fight against.

We can do what we have done as a club, join up with Sailability International and USA, and fight together for both monohull, multihull, and disAbled sailors together, not just as a multihull group. Seems to me we are fighting so hard to be included that we are forgetting the bigger picture! This is what our club is doing and it is working!

One of the reason I am doing what I am doing is because I waited to be taught how to get junior and youth sailing going in my area and what I found was no one really knew what they were doing, heck they can't even agree with is junior and youth, to me these are two words that should not be interchangeable.

Once again these are my ideas, the clubs ideas (I can not take total credit for it), and especially my junior and youth members ideas.

GARY - as you can tell we train kids with and without disAbilities. We will need to get several more of your righting systems.

On the subject of what should be the Junior or Youth catamaran, there are as many opinions as there are sailors.
Fortunately we all share a common, more general, goal of giving kids the opportunity to sail cats.
So how will this all pan out five years down the road? I’ll tell you.
The group that gets out there and actually puts their plan into action is the group that will determine the future (not the people who write to forums).
So, is everybody ready?
On your mark…….
Get set……..
Go!

Exactly rhobysail, check it out - http://www.sail-s.com/main/sail/Sailing_Group/Sailing_Group_MAIN.htm

There are also other junior/youth multihull groups going so will be interesting to see what happens.

Wildtsail sail how many H14's do you have sailing and do the kids like to sail them? Of course I would be interested in such an event, along with the kids in our club. There is the Baja California event that will be going next year with H16's that should be great.

Forgot to add to my last post a link to a pictorial explanation of monohull/multihull sailboats used for junior and youth sailing. May help some who are visual learners. http://www.sail-s.com/main/sail/Sailing_Group/Sailing_Group_Policies_&_Contacts.htm

Cheers!