This could be easily replaced and relatively cheap."
That may be fine for the boats that are already in existence...but why can't the boat manufactures just do it right when designing them...what’s so hard about making the mast sufficiently buoyant in the fist place by increasing the section size? This is by far the simplest and easiest way to solve the problem? It doesn’t have to look like a giant football or tootsie pop on the top of the mast.
If my mast were any heavier I would need a crane to put it up or I just wouldn't sail at all. If all the masts in the future are carbon then I guess it could work, but until then, making bigger masts may not be the answer.
Checking mast for leaks? Submerge it in a pool and watch for bubble?
If it isn't a very active leak is it a safety issue?
Maybe pressurizing it through a screw hole and look for leaks with soap. In the end though, you may end up creating leaks with the pressure!
On a nice warm day toss your mast into a nice cool lake or ocean, check base, top and hound, no pressurization necessary.
"If my mast were any heavier I would need a crane to put it up or I just wouldn't sail at all. If all the masts in the future are carbon then I guess it could work, but until then, making bigger masts may not be the answer."
It works on the Supercat 17,19,20, the ARC 17, 21, & 22 Why not for other similar size cats?
Give me a few days and I'll get the pics of my idea and send it too you.
Wouter
Awww, please that is just nonsense.
Other designs with the same mast bouyancy characteristics :
All the Taipans (4.9's, 5.7's and even the F16's)
There is no way you can turtle a modern A-cat.
All F16's with the superwing mast have the same volumenious mast sections.
I seem the remember I-20's were pretty turtle resistant as well.
I'm sure a few others can add design to this listing.
The question is more why you think that others DIDN'T. You must not believe everything Bill R. says. In this case Bill was talking nonsense when he claimed no other designer ever took this into account.
Wouter
Yes you have the Hobie Bob, but that is nothing but an awkward band aid that hurts (or is perceived to hurt) performance. Why not adapt this simple solution to a potentially horrific problem. The increase in mast section size never seems to slow down Bill or Eric on the race course.
The Hobie Bob floats offer very streamlined shapes that have less wind resistance than a crew members head...
The key to the safety of the Bob is getting the needed floatation out at the end of the mast lever arm where it is most needed.
There were attempts at mast wraps for floatation. These offered larger areas of drag and less effective floatation.
The Bobs are great solutions for recreational sailing.
Matt, have you ever been picketed by the Crew Union? I see labor unrest at Hobie's Galactic HQ soon.
WOW did this thread get a response? When I went home last night there were just three replies, this morning there were 67!!.
Although I fully sympathise with the fact that an eleven-year-old child died, I still have to say that I consider it one of those very unfortunate occasions that do and will happen, regardless of whatever steps we take to avoid. Whether we like it or not. Circumstances outside our control or as some would call it “fate”, does seem to play a part in all our lives. From personal experience I was placed in a “life and death” situation on a cat some years ago, where I was “trapped” not as in this case by the rigging or trapeze wire, but by a mainsheet line around the ankle. I was on a small cat on fresh, flat water with a wind of only about 6 knots when I had to make a sudden tack to avoid a dingy on starboard. When going under the boom my foot became entangled in the main sheet and some how I found myself in the water on the other side of the boat being dragged along by the ankle with my head under water. This was a very worrying situation as, for some reason unknown to me to this day I couldn’t get my head above water and the force of the water was very powerful even in those light conditions. It didn’t help that the rope attached to my ankle kept pulling the main on tighter and tighter. I couldn’t reach forward to get the line against the water flow and I couldn’t raise my head above the water. Just as I had visions of not seeing my family again, the line suddenly went slack and my head bobbed above the surface. Another cat sailing close by had seen what had happened and run his boat into my bows so putting it into irons. As soon as the pressure had ceased the line literally just fell off of my ankle. I think back on that time occasionally and realise that IF the grim reaper really wants you there are no regulations, no steps, no circumstances that you can put into place to avoid his steely grip. Should all mainsheets be eliminated? Even if I had a knife I couldn't have used it (other than cutting off my leg - if I could have reached it -). Some tragedies “just happen” regardless of what we do. It’s called LIFE, and all who live will someday die and no one can change that.
Just a thought, but has anybody also considered mounting a knife to the underside of the rear beam...... That way anybody close can grab and cut.
Remember one of the comments from officials at I believe it was SPA regatta where a Tornado crew died whilst trapped under the tramp. "The rescue boat did not have a knife on board and was unable to cut the tramp"...... A knife on the back beam could have saved this guys life.
Also regarding A cats will not go turtle....... I have seen it quiet a few times now and have even seen thier rigs snap from bouncing on the bottom.
Steve, just getting the facts right. The Tornado accident was 2002, Palma de Mallorca during the "Princesa Sofia" trophy. A prolonged tragedy where one of the Haupl brothers, Johannes, was trapped in his trapeeze under the tramp. First coach boats that arrived did not have a knife onboard, so they resorted to trying to lift the boat up sufficiently to get some air to him. The danes coach boat arrived with a knife, but alas..
Good idea to have a knife on the mainbeam. If you need corrector weights, you can perhaps replace them with a wire cutter?
Thanks Rolf for correcting me...... Been a while since the incident. Did not hear that he was caught in his trapeze when I orignaly heard the story..... Can you elaborate further on this at all.
Knife and wire cutters.... Good idea. Would not be a stupid idea to make it part of class rules. The F-18s currently must carry a compass, paddle, tow rope......
Sorry Steve, I dont have more specific information on how he got tangled up under the tramp. Always wondered about that myself, and have missed a proper examination/discussion by the class.
I had too say it but indeed carrying a knife is compulsory in the F16 class rules !
Geez this rules setup is well though out.
Wouter
If I had a young child, I would have been parenting that child and not have left the responsibility to others.
I’d guess that's where the negligence played in. 
Cause of death however was most likely drowning by harness entrapment.
The ball system would prevent the hook from getting snagged but not the harness.
Wasn't there a problem with the ball and socket harness a while back? Something about the materials used breaking prematurely or something like that? I thought they were pulled from The Store for some kind of defect. Has that been resolved because I plan on replacing mine this spring and I'd like to have confidence that it won't crack or whatever?
Greg
The carbon harnesses don't break. It was the plastic ones they pulled. May go this route on my 17. Knife and cutters for sure.
Doug Snell
Hobie 17
www.tcdyc.com
On a long (about a hour) wild reach back to the beach in Puerto Rico, 2 meter swell, traveler almost all the way out, double trapped on a H16, I lost my concentation, capsized, turtled, and was held under the boat, by the shockcord wraped around my legs. I remained calm, but at some point wondered if I would ever figure out how to untangle myself.
A knife on my person or crew would of been helpful, I now carry a knife.
A quick release for the harness would have been ineffective as the problem was the bungee cord around my legs (unhooking was a no brainer).
A quick release of the shock cord in my case would have been more effective.
The risk, in fact is not only associated with the trapeze, all sailboats have plenty of ropes and other stuff to get stucked with. I know of somebody that got trapped on a capsized Laser, with the tiller inside his lifevest, he managed to unmount the tiller, but recognized that it wasn´t easy to remain calm and figure out what to do.
I think it´s better that each one carries his own kinfe instead of storing it in somewhere in the boat where it can be out of reach. In the case I mentioned, the first thing the crew did after capsizing was to swim to recover the daggerboard that came out of the boat. She didn´t even think his partner was trapped down the boat and it took her a couple of minutes to get back to the boat.
A friend who coached junior sailing on Lasers told me about boats going over and the sailor being trapped under the sail. He said he'd get along side as fast as possible and push them down and towards the hull with his foot. It's always something.
Let's be careful out there.
I'm hearing over and over again how dangerous this sport is... Do you really think so? I always tell my wife that it's probably more dangerous driving to Massachusetts twice per week than sailing but maybe I'm wrong?
Statistically, do you think is it PROBABLE that one of us who frequents this forum eventually DIES while sailing? IF not PROBABLE then what do you think the risk is? 20%? 10%? Less than 1%? Seems to me, for all the people who sail, you hear of very few fatalities. Less than other sports popular around here. Certainly less than snowmobiling where at least 5-10 people died just this winter.... and every past winter about the same number. How many actually die from sailing activities? Does anyone know of anyone who died of a catamaran capsize? I don't.
Just wondering.....
Greg
Darryl,
I had the exact same thing happen to me! I was sailing with an inexperienced crew, she was hiking, I went to hike out and missed the hook. I went overboard, the mainsheet wrapped TIGHT aroung my ankle (I thought I had broken my ankle), I was dragged underwater and the boat sped up while my crew dutifully hiked out on the trap. I thought I was going to drown. I always carry a knife when I sail....it was no use in this situation. Eventually for some unknown reason, the boat luffed up enough to release me....and then it took off at full speed with my crew. She eventually beached the boat but had no idea where I was. A passing powerboat picked me up and took me back to my cat. The point is, it can happen FAST, with no warning and even the best prepared skippers can be caught by surprise.
Greg, I expect none who frequent this forum to pass away becouse of sailing catamarans. Fatalities are not very common, and I suppose most people on this forum are conscious about potenial problems. I would rate sailing catamarans as a very low risk sport. It's a technical sport, so one needs to take care of equipment and understand the working environment (wind and water), but I definately view this sport as safe.
Some do press the limits, like going on offshore trips on small cats. Those guys usually know what they are doing and take every precaution possible.
I know of only three fatal accidents from sailing cats over the last years. Johannes Haupl, Sven Schang and now this 11 year old girl. There has probably been many close calls, but we have no system for collecting those. Perhaps we should make an online database to collect those? In rock climbing, where death rate is rather high if you goof up, we have a system for collecting information about all accidents and potential accidents.
Some do press the limits, like going on offshore trips on small cats. Those guys usually know what they are doing and take every precaution possible.
I know of only three fatal accidents from sailing cats over the last years. Johannes Haupl, Sven Schang and now this 11 year old girl. There has probably been many close calls, but we have no system for collecting those. Perhaps we should make an online database to collect those? In rock climbing, where death rate is rather high if you goof up, we have a system for collecting information about all accidents and potential accidents.
I think that is all correct Rolf. I agree 100%. Here is where I am going with this.......
I am trying to tie into an earlier thread of how to promote the sport to others and I think it could be said that this IS a very safe sport when compared to the "activities/sports" here in the States that are stealing away our potential future sailors like JETSKI'S and maybe even ocean kayaking. I hear of one or two deaths or serious injuries every week during the summer months from those activites. I never hear of sailing deaths or serious injuries (around here at least). In my business, we have a statistic we toss around quite often that 80% of leisure activity decisions for the family are determined by the female. Couple that stat with womens # 1 and # 2 concerns of SAFETY and CLEANLINESS (guess why Disney is so popular) and maybe catamaraning should be promoted to WOMEN as a clean, safe sport and then slip in the spitfire video to the kids and dads to promote the speed!
Just my 2 cents worth....
That would contradict your first statement, which I agree. I don´t think it is necessary be alarmist to do something about the potential risk that has been identified on this discussion, but it is a real risk, as it has sadly been proved, so it is worth to do something. For example emphasizing the use of the knife to make it part of the standard gear. It is nothing new, there are some specific ones on the market and some classes has incporporated it on their rules, as mentioned before, but it appears that the sport need to evolve a little bit to incorporate it as one more piece of standard equipment.
Andinista, I was think about getting some statistics not only about fatalites, but close calls like Darryns and other accidents.
What is that system/how does it work?
It's a web based system. You enter all relevant information into a webpage and submit it, wether you was involved in the accident or just an witness is not important. What's important is getting the data. Information is then reviewed and entered into that years statistics.
Typical fields/questions are:
Contact information:
Time and place for the incident
Weather conditions
Terrain type
Traction/friction (snow, rain etc..)
Name/age/experience level of persons involved
Description of injuries
Main purpose of the trip undertaken (climbing, hiking, rapell, glacier walk)
Organized event
Activity when the accident happened (climbing, descending, free-climbing etc.)
Type of incident (fall, rockfall, glissade etc)
Short (terse) description of the incident
Why did the accident happen (multiple choice and free text)
Safety equipment in use
What could have been done to avoid the incident
Rescue, What, when, how, who, experiences from the recue
Other comments
All this information except contact information and names are then made available to the public, and at the years end a report is put together and the statistics updated. Out of these reports, it has been shown that inexperienced climbers are the most prone to accidents (no surprise there), and that experienced climbers mostly have accidents while returning from a trip. It has been quite useful.
The web form is available here (in norwegian): http:/
How do you get people to submit information to the website?
In the case of sailing, I would think that would be the most difficult thing. Just in the United States, how would you even let all the sailors, both cruising and racing, know about the website?
And lots of people who have close calls of one sort or another don't think much about it, or else they are embarrassed to talk about it.
When people have really bad incidents, some of them don't want to talk about it at all.
Class associations don't like bad incidents publicized for fear it will reflect badly on their type of boat.
As a result, we only really hear about incidents that end in death or in court or in US Sailing's rescue awards program.
I have been told that Marine Patrol down here in South Florida rescues people in catamarans about once a month, but we never hear about any of those and we don't know what happened.
So, how can that kind of information about accidents and incidents involving beach cats be collected and compiled?
Most of the accidents involving catamarans for the past few years have involved collisions with powerboats or PWCs. But those are the ones that get the publicity.
This all still begs the question of how to get sailors to report all the incidents that only they know about (assuming there would be a place to make their reports and that every sailor knows about that place).