Mary,
The problem with gathering statistics is that there are so many ways to interpret the information. How many fatalities, in how many hours of catamaran sailing, compared to how many other sailboats, power boats, water skiers, surfers, divers, and so on. You could make the numbers say whatever you wanted. I don't think life insurance companies increase their fees or deny coverage to sailors but they do for SCUBA divers and small plane pilots. They are the ones who make their living on knowing what is dangerous and what is not.
I have owned my Hobie 16 for 21 years and can't recall anyone around me or that I read about who was in serious jeopardy or injured other than one boat that capsized and was drifting for hours before the men were picked up in the ocean. I have never had an experience that I thought was life threatening or where I was in serious danger.
I looked at rental boats at different places and saw that most of the time they didn't have trapeze wires. That is a good thing. It is possible that the 11 year old girl would not have drowned if the boat didn't have trapeze capability.
I feel much more in danger driving to the lake or ocean than I do out on the water.
Howard
Howard,
What you are talking about is how to assess the statistics.
What I am talking about is how do you get people to give you the information in the first place. You can't interpret what you don't have.
Why not Mary, the government do it all the time for anything that they want to show in their favour?
Mary,
US Sailing have already started something similar (found the link on Sailinganarchy):
https:/
It's not as userfriendly and well tought out as the "climbing" report, but usable.
I think that as long as the anonymous version of the reports are available for reading for everybody, beachcat sailors will submit what they experience or witness. It is pretty interesting reading..
Marketing of the initative would have to be done via class associations, forums like this and magazines.
It's just an idea, and something that has worked well within the climbing community over here. Not something I have tought much about or felt missing within catsailing.
Now, Darryl and Howard. One of the points behind this is to make the full reports sans names available on the web. Sailors can then read and interpret the results for them selves. As the reports are pretty standard, you quickly see the pattern behind what kind of accidents/close calls happen.
I think the US Sailing initative will not be very successful, unless the reports submitted are made available on the web somewhere (I did not see any link to results).
US Sailing have already started something similar (found the link on Sailinganarchy):
https:/
I think the US Sailing initative will not be very successful, unless the reports submitted are made available on the web somewhere (I did not see any link to results).
I didn't see any link to results either but there is a contact us email address. I would like to see the results of the survey limited though it is.
What other questions would you put on "our" survey?
I'd like to know:
1) what type of boat you received the injury on.
2) whether you thought the injury was from faulty equipment, faulty judgement, or flat-out bad luck.
Any others?
Greg
I had the line-wrap thing happen to me during a pitchpole on my Hobie-18. I was driving from the rear corner doing the wildthing when the boat dove in a gust. I slid down the tramp in the initial stuff and as the boat was going over and I was trying to climb back I found I had been snagged around the ankle by the jibsheet. I was able to free myself before the boat went fully over but it was close. I wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to cut the tramp with my knife to breath instead of continuing to struggle with my caught foot. Even with a sharp knife I wonder if I could have cut the line easily.
Most of the places we sail the regularly the mast will hit the bottom before the boat fully turtles. But out in the middle of the Bay....
Maybe you guys should tidy your boats up more ?
Wouter
Maybe you guys should tidy your boats up more ?
Wouter
Funny how things seem tidy until the boat becomes a submarine!
That was tempting fate a little WOUTER,
Quote:
Maybe you guys should tidy your boats up more ?
Wouter
My trampolines are as neat and "spartan" as it is possible to make a tramp, and as long as there are "sheet lines" on a boat, you can get caught up in them. I just hope we don't read about "the late Wouter, tangled in a sheet line and drowned"
Haven't you heard of Murphy's law Wouter?
He might have heard of Murphy's Law, but I'm hoping he's never heard of karma 😛
Most of the places we sail the regularly the mast will hit the bottom before the boat fully turtles. But out in the middle of the Bay....
I got trapped under the tramp of an 18 in a similar situation. A pitch pole while heading dead down wind. The jib sheet caught round my neck and I was under the tramp for perhaps 15 seconds (it felt quite a bit longer). I ended up ripping off my hat and glasses to get the rope off and lost both to the bottom of the lake.
On reflection I think the diving knife or safety hook is an excellent idea - time to go shopping.
My thoughts on this tragic accident - if regulations called for the 11 year old to be supervised then the employees of the company do appear to be negligent. Fitting mast floats to rental boats would appear to be a very sensible practice. When people buy and sail their own boats I would defend their right to personal choice and not mandate floats.
Chris.
This is a very sad story. From reading though it did seem that the boat was being supervised by adults from a crash boat. It's really just a terrible accident. Also a reminder of bad things that can happen out there and to be prepared.
Deaths in cats are pretty rare. But cats are getting pretty rare also. I use to take this pretty lightly until I had an issue one day. I was running downwind and pitchpoled in a good puff. As I slid across the tramp somehow the bungie got a loop around my leg. After we flipped I was hung upsidedown until my crew could come and help free me. You can't break bungie and you can't pull it off until you can relieve the tension. After this I bought a dive knife which I wear on my lifevest always. People sometimes make fun of it but I can't imagine what would have happened had the boat turtled with my leg stuck in the bungie.
I also know that the award (I forget the name) was given out a few years ago because a woman had got the hook from the trapeze "looped" in the sidestay. The sidestay was actually looped around the hook. There was no way to free her. After struggling for a long time her skipper was able to get the harness off of her so that she could surface. This was a very close call and only due to her skippers quick action was her life saved.
I also know of 4 cats totally destroyed by motor boats.
1. Eric Arborast H20
2. Barry I20
3. Gordon Isco's A cat.
4. Tornado by a coach boat. The skipper lost a leg in this incident.
These are all people I've met or know and so this is not an uncommon occurance. Be careful around powerboats. They are clueless.
With all of that said, I also believe catsailing to be a very safe sport when precautions are taken and common sense is used.
Mike Hill
www.stlouiscats.com
The problem with gathering statistics is that there are so many ways to interpret the information. How many fatalities, in how many hours of catamaran sailing, compared to how many other sailboats, power boats, water skiers, surfers, divers, and so on. You could make the numbers say whatever you wanted. I don't think life insurance companies increase their fees or deny coverage to sailors but they do for SCUBA divers and small plane pilots. They are the ones who make their living on knowing what is dangerous and what is not.
Most of my experience has been with White Water Kayaking in West Virginia. Between 1995 and 1997 all commercial rafting companies were asked to report fatal and non-fatal injuries. It was very difficult to compare data on different rivers because the conditions were so varied. We did find commonalities in types of injuries. The most common was facial injuries, usually after bailing out in a rapid and getting hit by the boat. People between 20 and 29 had more injuries than those over 30. The most telling was of course experience with the boat. Those with less than 20 hours experience were the more likely to die in circumstances where boaters with greater than 100 hours of experience reported a 'near miss' or suffered injury but lived. (One of those near misses was mine)
I mention this study because I think it would be similar in catamarans. The conditions would make the data difficult to compare but if you look at WHO gets in serious trouble, it is directly related to experience more than conditions. For instance, a very inexperienced sailor might assume too much about a motor boat giving them way. It might be interesting to see what injuries are common to the sport. From what I am reading it seems to be legs and in particular knees. What is your feeling?
Also...men were 14 times more likely than womento have a fatal injury but, like catamaran sailing, I would guess that has much more to do with who is participating in the sport. There aren't very many women kayaking either.
Before vowing to carry a large, sharp knife on your person:
try to cut a piece of mainsheet, jibsheet, spinsheet or bungee with it. Then try it under duress, being dragged, or hanging upside down. It ain't so easy. Some of these modern (Kevlar-containing?) lines are very difficult to cut.
Check it out, even nipping off a bit of your new line- to have a fair idea what, and how fast, and even IF it can be done! The life you save could be your own-or your kid's.
If in that situation, forget cutting the main sheet, cut the tramp and sort yourself out from there...... It just may save your life
I had a similar incident happen, and consider myself fortunate to have been told by a few in my fleet to always have: A knife, with a serated edge if you can, keep your wits about you while ABOVE water and always remember - don't panic. Very, very sad incident, but I do understand this is a rare incident (?).
Exactly.
Get some air, then worry about un-tangling !
You need to think this thru as to what order you do things and have it clear in your mind.
1, Which way is up (trust me it's not as silly as it sounds)
2, Air route (cut tramp?)
3, Now breathing, less speed required
4, Un-tanglement
5, Recovery
Gerber makes a safety knife with a serrated blade.
The Gerber has a rounded tip, so you cant jab or cut yourself with it if you are trying to get the knife between your body and whatever has you tangled.
Spyderco makes one too, the point isnt quite as round as the Gerber. http:/
I couldnt find a picture of the Gerber.
I'll bet there are more (sailing) deaths from hypothermia than drowning.
If memory serves, there have been 5 deaths r/t hypothermia and alcohol in Southwest Florida in the last 25 or 30 years.
None by drowning that I'm aware of.
Correction- recently a guy fell out of his dingy and drowned. This while trying to board a monohull. Alcohol was a contributing factor.
Some great safety advice here.
A few questions:
1) If you use a blunt tip safety knife with a serrated edge, can you still easily cut the tramp? I'm concerned that with the blunt tip it may be hard to get the cut started?
2) Yes, good idea to put the knife where you can get at it with either hand; do most people put it on the front of their PFD to do this? If not, where?
3) Do most people use a sheath on their vest to hold the knife rather than a flip open style knife?
Jerry
I am also a fan of the gerber river shorty.
I wear it on the hard point on my life jacket. It is a snap-sheath style. This means I can easily access it with either hand.
I haven't tried to go through a tramp with it as a test but I am confident that I could. The blade has a blunt squared of tip that can be used as a screwdriver or to pry in an emergency. The blade is thick so that it won't break easily.
Sliding face first down the tramp her hook caught the center tramp lacing and within seconds she was two feet under water, attached to the tramp... Thank God we had the circa 1980, quick release hook. Does any one remember what I'm talking about? Looks identical to the small (not spreader bar) type harness buckle, but had a short line tail to actuate a spring loaded release mechanism (the whole hook and backing plate slid out of the frame). This saved her life. Diving down under the water, against the bouyancy of the life vest was difficult enough, not leaving me much time to do anything other than pull that cord and yank her out from under the boat and to the surface.
Was there some suspected defect to these? Back into cat sailing/racing after several years off I notice they're not available any longer (at least not in the Hobie catalogue). I have some older style harnesses I'd like to outfit them with. Are they still available somewhere?
We believe in quick release.
Flatlander18, I believe you're talking about the excellent Matson QR (quick-release) buckle. Not sure why they are no longer made... probably some @!*& lawyers involved. I know of no design defects, and mine has never let go when I didn't want it to. I have simulated "rescuing" myself with it under loads exceeding my body weight, and it releases nicely. I also like the plastic retainer which keeps you from coming unhooked when slack, and will retain the hook in an emergency release.
Mine is holding up well and you can't have it. ;') The new replacement (from a different mfr.) in the Murray's catalog looks to be weaker, less failsafe, and (*ta-DAH*) FOUR times the cost! Is that "progress"???