Cat Class Suicide?

Mark:

I would suggest everyone do what I did. Try to take at least 6 newbies out a year. I have helped 4 of them get cats. AND none where new high tech boats!!

Doug

True, but what can you do? Sail the boat you like and just take things as they come.

Haven't we already done this one?

This is the advantage of formula racing.
New or old, all included.

Mark, I think you are mixing cat racing with cat sailing. Cat sailing (not racing) seems to be growing, especially in the charter world, as more people find out you don't have to spend the whole trip at 6 knots max, leaning over the rail getting splashed and sea sick. Charter cat fleets (35-45 footers) are on the rise, vs. monohulls.

As far as racing, the F18 class has brought many racers together that were previuosly spread out on the Hobie 20, Inter 20, Nacra 6.0, Nacra 5.5, Hobie 18, Hobie 17, etc. That is why that class is growing while the others are shrinking. The same number of sailors, but in the same class instead of spread out.

There is still the whole stigma of sailing being "Too hard" as well as too fickle, that is, we depend on the wind, which doesn't always cooperate. But as gas prices keep going up, maybe more people will consider sailing instead of Jet Skis.

I live on a lake in Florida, I have noticed much less power boat traffic this year, so far. I see lots of power boats sitting in the yards with a "For Sale" sign on them. That doesn't mean those people will buy sailboats, they probably will buy golf clubs. Most power boat people that I have talked to think sailing is both "too hard and too slow."

Here's something to think about: As gas prices keep going up, there will be less "disposable income" available for recreation. What do you think that is going to do to sailing, or boating in general? New boat prices also have to go up as they are made of resin which is made from petroleum. That's not going to help boat sales.

Less than 5% of people go baoting at all, less than 10% of those sail, less than 10% of the sailors sail Cats, less than 10% of cat sailors actaully race cats. That's a pretty small demographic to work with in the first place, now add in higher cost of trailering your boat to water, and higer new boat prices...

Gas is not an issue for me, at least not yet! Since I'm only going to travel 3-5 hours one way, driving a Honda Element and averaging 50 mph at best, towing a 240 lb boat with the attendant gear, how much can that add to my trip? $20- 40$?

Finding a motel with suitable launching! That's a concern!

btw- Mark, what do you sail?

Pete,
Whats the Element get for gas mileage.

Bill

23-26. Never really checked, but that's about right.

Yes, I think this has been true especially for the last 3-5 years, however, the fleets are finally starting to settle out.

In Florida, I20, F18, F16, H16, A-Cat and Waves seem to be the classes that have survived and are growing.

Personally, I was always a fan of the SMOD, but it seems formula racing has come to the rescue of catsailing and is getting more boats on the starting line racing together.

The exceptions are the Hobie 16 which is a great option for SMOD and is also a great intro boat. The I20 is the distance and heavy crew boat king and seems to be doing fine. The waves also have a good group.

Seems to me that there is a good selection of fleets that should please just about everyone.

I'm fully with Brian on this one. I only see improvement of the cat scene.

More then a decade ago we had over 15 catamaran classes here. In the 18 foot double handed segment alone you had :

dart hawk
nacra 5.5
hobie 18
dart 18
Prindle 18
Prindle 18-2 (very different to the prindle 18 !)

None of them wanted to play with the others.

No there is only one 18 doublehanded catamaran that as good as everyone is sailing. Formula 18

In the 20 foot and other length segments to same has happened or is happening. It is just a matter of time when we only have :

Tornado / nacra-20 (I-20)
F18
F16 (Includes the ISAF youth boat SL16 and Spitfire)
A-cat
Hobie 16

In the way of waves/mystere 4.3/tyka 4.3/KL14.5 segment it is yet unsure which will come out on top.

So we went from over 15 classes to a much smaller and better spread out scene of only 5 to 6 classes.

I also believe that this new selection covers as good as any need/desires that a particular crew may have.

Wouter

I hope this isn't considered hijacking, but what would it take for the H16 to be F16 compliant??

It's funny that you insist on refering to the F16 as if it was an establised class. The truth is it has no buisness being on a list with those other classes untill it has some REAL numbers out there. Everyone tends to agree on all the other classes but then adds an exception for their own class if it's an "other" (F16 in your case). There in lies the problem with lists. Everyone wants to make an exception for their favorite "other" class.

On the West Coast we are getting the most interest in the Formula 18s and the A-Cats. That is for the sailors coming from other disciplines. There is still a very hearty group of Hobie 16s. We do not see very many of the other boats coming out to race. I-20s show up with only about 2 boats, unless we are sailing in San Diego, where we can see about 7 of them. A-Cats mostly sail out of Long Beach, nice fleet, good sailors, but hard to pry from Long Beach format. Formula 18s sail the most (14 regattas/per year) in the most locations (6-7 venues). That means that we are seen by a lot of new people all the time. This is what generates the interest, "We actually sail." Having a lot of the "same boat" (Formula 18) on the line is really impressive to the racing fleets that are struggling. It is hard to beat the numbers game.

Later,
Dan

I was trying to draw some logic from your statement, but there doesn't seem to be any.

Sometimes the name tells the whole story.

We must first agree that everything is in a state of change, something is either growing or it is dieing. The whole one design premise is based on a false assumption...that something can be static and survive.

The world is moving in fast forward, it thrives on new technology and invention…why then assume cat sailing is declining because of too much innovation? It seems the opposite is true…Catamaran sailing must keep re-inventing itself or it will be quickly left behind, dieing... as sports with more marketing savvy cannibalize the ranks.

It's all ABOUT the marketing...It has always BEEN about the marketing...and it will always BE about the Marketing.

Marketing is the battle field where numbers are won and lost.

Regards,
Bob

I have no idea if there is any truth to this story.

According to legend, Hobie Alter was happily building skate boards and surf boards when a marketing guy asked him to build a cat' so surfers would have something to do between waves.

The rest is history. If true it would make "The Hobie Way of Life" a remarkable marketing success story, and primarily a marketing story.

Done it to death!

Our F18 mass in our area has pretty much been maxed out from the current catamaran sailing ranks. There maybe one or two more to be added in the next couple of years. What IS working are where people have infiltrated local sailing clubs and talking up the class to sailors of other mono-hulls. There is a good bit of interest and we think think we could possibly add another three F18s to our region in the next year.

Size-wise, how does the F18 North American event stack up with other NA Sailing Championships in numbers? I bet it's already up there pretty high in the list.

The "legend" is that Hobie, Wayne Schaefer and Phil Edwards came of with the H-14 to have something to play with when the wind messed up the waves for surfing.

They were all surfing buddies. Phil did the shaping on the H-16 and H-18 (and by derivation, the H-17, since its hull is a cut down version of the H-18).

Oh really? Then what are we? a product of our imagination?
http://formula16.org/
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=Fleet45

What do you define as a real number? As far as I know even a 0 zero is a real number. A ten without the zero is a ONE!. Just because we do not have 15+ f16 on the starting line does not make us a "REAL numbers" class. As far as I have seen the only class that gets big numbers an starting lines are the H16 and F18.

So far you have been the only one to say, we are not a real class. I did not read a majority or post saying otherwise. Seems to ME you are the only one here stating this. So there is no majority and your statement has no basis.

Yeah and? everyone wants to beleive their boat is the best boat. There is nothing wrong with that. As long as we are having fun, its all good. But saying the F16 is NOT a class with "Real" numbers is old. The joke was funny back 2002

Over 150 boats and growing, presence in 5 continents (only missing south-america and antarctica). 2007 Alter Cup boat, this feb 2007 a World Challenge in Singapore with 30-40 boats projected as participation. We even have 4 boats in a far off place like Shanghai China, ahead of everybody else. We have 3 builders linked to class a 4th is in the works. We have a local builder in all continents. If we wanted we could ask and get ISAF recognised status, we satisfy the requirements. We have now had class races in all area's except China. Glenn Asby himself sponsored the NSW F16 challenge Cup (Australia).

For local US zealots; since jan 2005 the US F16 class has grown by 15 boats and that is excluding the future 11 Alter Cup boats. At the time these are build (before feb 2007) then US F16 class will at least have doubled herself to just over 50 boats in total. During that time new orders may have been added.

Growth in other places in the world shows a similar development. A quick sum already results in 31 boats added world wide since jan 2005. And I didn't included the Stealth F16 sales in the UK yet. There are now 40 stealths in the UK.

Now in all honesty; do you see any design, not initially listed, like FX-one, F17, Swell Shadow, nacra 500 or even the Spitfire do anything like this ?

Because I certainly don't.

Some of you may not like it. And yes you can take any single area and argue that growth is modest locally. But the thing to remember here is that the F16 class does this modest growth in 5 different places at the same time, all over the world. This while near all other designs not listed can't even get such a modest growth in one single spot.

Again, you may not like it, but the race has been run. We have achieved critical mass, F16 is here to stay

P.S. I didn't name the Dart 18 in my initial listing as I really believe that that class is dying beyond a hope of a change in fortunes.

And this hole topic was played out by ME back in March.

http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho... ew=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

-1- get a spinnaker if you want to have any chance of being in the race.
-2- invoke grandfather clause.
-3- show up, be respectful to boat owners of other makes and race

I promise that I'll be nice to the Hobie 16 sailors

Wouter

Lets see it happen, unless this is all just talk.

Anybody hear anything? Flies buzzing? There's no one out there, must be the flies! With that odor so peculiar to anonymity, it must be the flies.

It could be the no-see-ums.

Sniff, sniff! No, that's something much more common than no-see-ums!! . What we really need is a leash law!

Seeker wrote;

"We must first agree that everything is in a state of change, something is either growing or it is dieing. The whole one design premise is based on a false assumption...that something can be static and survive.

The world is moving in fast forward, it thrives on new technology and invention…why then assume cat sailing is declining because of too much innovation? It seems the opposite is true…Catamaran sailing must keep re-inventing itself or it will be quickly left behind, dieing... as sports with more marketing savvy cannibalize the ranks.

It's all ABOUT the marketing...It has always BEEN about the marketing...and it will always BE about the Marketing.

Marketing is the battle field where numbers are won and lost.

Regards,
Bob"

Sorry but it is just WRONG to say that "one design sailing is based on a false assumption.....that something can be static and survive".

The first two one designs EVER in small-boat sailing are both sailing happily today, and they were both created in 1884. The first International small-boat class is one of the most popular singlehanders afloat, and it was designed in 1912. The first International yacht class is still popular and still Olympic. The second one design cat class (Shearwater) has been around for over 50 years, I think. What is the most popular cat class? Hobie 16 - pretty much the same boat for 35+ years.

So the plain and simple FACT, however much you may dislike it, is that one designs classes DO survive, and some of them have survived much, much longer than many development classes. Seen many Cs, 18 squares, or Ds lately?

Not all of the world IS moving forward. Look at surfing; the old-style '60s vintage longboards are more popular than "modern" boards. Look at windsurfing - it dumped OD classes, went "progressive", and is now about 8% as big as it was when there were lots of OD boards. Look at yacht sailing - biggest events for years have been classic boat races like the 276 strong Dragon regatta. Even in dinghies, the classes that are growing fastest are the older, slow ODs like Lasers, Radials and Optis.

The facts are plain, the facts are simple. In a fast, high-tech world, many people are turning to their sport for relief from instant obsolescence. In the sport of sailing generally, the numbers do not lie - the ODs are surviving, the ODs are thriving, the slow boats are often growing.

Even in cats, what is the major growth class (arguably)? F18 - not an OD, but a class that has specifically outlawed "moving forward" too fast.

WORD!