Cats and weight

Incidentally, we are not racers. We want a fun, fast, comfortable boat, and would like to be able to sail under a variety of conditions. We'd also like to take friends and kids on board with us sometimes....

Jonathan

A perfect cat in my opinion would be a nacra 6.0.

Me and my crew together weight a 175 Kilo’s.

And we can handle is perfectly, the boat can also be very good handled by one person.

It listens very good and is easy to handle.

I used to sail a 18ft Dart, but we were to heavy crossing the waves (slowing down caused by water under the tramp).

Another advantage is that the spare parts for the 6.0 are easy to get both used and new.

I am sure that you can find a 6.0 owner who will take you on board for a tryout.

Success.

Hi J

At 360 crew wt the ideal may be a 20 ft cat design .

There are a number of excellent cats in this size range . Most are very similar , most in this size range have boards unlike the P-16 , but track to windward much better ,-- with a number of them listed in the classified section here on Catsailor at very reasonable prices .

-Hobie -Fox - Hobie M-20 --Inter 20 -Nacra 6/0 --P-19 -

are a few . There are also Supercat 20 and 19 s -Mystere 20 . among others .

A number of these 20 ft range cats have a standard spin snuffer or as an added option which is also fun to learn after the basics are under control .

The best way to learn is to get together with other cat sailors and race ,-there are very informal fun groups that race short coastal distances and buoys races in the N C area .

Racing to specific points teaches sailors how to sail most efficiently to windward and downwind , other sailors info on boat set up and boat handling increase the learning process 10 times , developing this sailing skill makes you much safer when off shore on any body of water .

- will send info ,-or feel free to send an e if you have any questions .

sail safe

have fun

Carl Roberts

Jonathan,

A hobie 18 would suit you nicely.

In fact, that SX I was telling you about might be for sale this winter.

-Tad

I concure with Carl. Having owned all on his short list and sailed all of them with combined crew weight in the 330-370 range. Hey! I'm 200 lbs of it!

My first choice would be the Nacra 6.0 -- it carries the weight well but, can get over powered quick for an inexperienced crew.

My second would be the Hobie M20 -- for a few reasons. First you can race it anywhere in the US. Generally, they are built very well - post 1995. and are fairly user friendly. ALthough if you race, everyone else will kill you due to the CWM is 295 (still - I think, its been a few years since I raced that one)

Buy one used! You'll have more fun and usually it will have all the bugs worked out.

Thanks

Steve

If you like the P16 than maybe going for a P18 is just the right step to take. That boat will take 360 well. I had both the 16 and 18 and the 18 with to guys on it (also 360) went well.

Wouter

JW,

All the posts are giving you great input.

Considering the intended use,...and it may be a little overkill,......try considering a used Inter 20.

Forget the race stuff, like spinnakers and poles,..take it all off ,...... bargin it out of the purchase price....just sail with the Main and jib..( if you REALLY want to be kind to your wife, put on a self tacking jib assembly)

...as you can see,...the price is VERY reasonable for top of the line technology and being 2-3 years old.....( $8000 range,...maybe less)

...the boat rides like a Roll-Royce and you will not have any fear for safety ........just a thought.

Bruce

St. Croix

My crew and I weigh in at over 400 lbs and have been racing a NACRA 6.0NA for the last year. I am very pleased with the boat, it is very well built and durable. Performance wise, it is a big step up from the P-16 and with that comes some trade offs. On the plus side you have speed, pointing ability, lots of hull volume, resistance to pitch poling, and reasonable pricing. On the downside, it is a powerfull but well behaved boat. Adding a furling jib could be a solution-it will sail well on the main alone. Another point is it a very busy boat with lots of control lines, but this could be cleaned up by replacing the jib lead system with a cleaner set up if you are not racing. Having dagger boards is another task, but they are well worth it unless you sail on very shallow water. I have had 3 200lb guys on the boat and it still moves! Even though a used 6.0 will cost twice that of a H-18, it is worth it(I owned an 18 for years) P-19s are also nice and can be picked up very inexpensive ($2000) but are much more fragile. You may also find some very good deals on a NACRA 5.8 (19ft) as they have been around quite a while. Good luck with your search-boat shopping is one of the best pleasures in life.

Hi Wouter,

Someone told me that the Prindle 18-2 is a wonderful boat, but said that the Prindle 18 has a tendency to pitchpole because it has less buoyancy in the front. Is there anything to that?

I do like the P-16 a lot, so a P 18-2 or P 19 sounds pretty inviting....

Jonathan

Ah, thanks for the detail here - I really love the simplicity of the P16, and setup and takedown time matter to me too. Would the P19 be closer to the P16 in terms of simplicity?

Jonathan

Thanks, Rob, I will definitely try to get a ride on one.

Jonathan

Carl,

I would definitely be interested in getting together with other cat sailors in the NC area. We are real beginners, and have an awful lot to learn, so I would hope these would be extremely informal races, but it sounds like fun!

Jonathan

Tad,

If a Hobie handles our weight well, it would have definite advantages since a lot of them were made and there seem to be a lot of parts available for cheap.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a mast for a Hobie 18 that does not have comp tips? I promise to notice any power lines before I set it up....

Jonathan

Ah, I should have mentioned that I am a cheapskate! I still have to get three daughters through college and be able to retire while I can still sail actively. We got our P16 for less than a thousand, and I probably would not look at much more than a few thousand.

It sounds like the Prindle 19, Prindle 18-2, Hobie 18, and Hobie 20, Mystere, or perhaps some of the Nacras are the boats most likely to be available at the lower end of the price range?

Jonathan

All boats mentioned are good boats. However, from your previous posts the fun factor may get lost with too much boat. Things like forgetting the dagger boards down can ruin a marriage. Sometimes they stick as you beach etc. If out and out performance is not paramount, you are not class racing (much) and money not too short then the P19 looks good with centerboards. Otherwise the humble P18 is lots of fun, tough as your P16, and cheaper(about as fast as p16 upwind, actually a little faster with your weight, but won't die on you with a crew of four or so). It rigs up just as quick too.

Ok, Now that I know alittle more about what your looking for price wise coupled with the wife and kids comment you might want to look into a G-cat 6.0.

Before everyone wants to howl -- hear me out. Its bullet--proof. Two tramps, beaches easy -- pretty quick for a boardless boat. Good family boat and you can buy them really cheap. Even a 5.0 would carry the weight that you mentioned. Since you don't race then you don't have to worry about classes and the parts are all of the shelve.

Randy Smith use to say that it was the Cadillac ride of all beach boats. I think that pretty much sums it up.

Steve

Wow

Lots of recomondations of really high performance boats!! No questions to Johnathon about what kind of sailing he really wants to do. How likely is he to go sailing in 15 knotts... or is he really sailing in 10 knots and fair weather. How shallow is the Pamlico sound??? In many of the tidal bays, sandbars are constantly shiffing. A boardless boat or a boat with kick up centerboards and rudders is much more user friendly. How much weight can you and your wife move around on the beach...Will you be trailering the boat often and stepping the mast... Dead boat weight on and off the trailer will get old quick and stop you from sailing your toy. Similar... the raising and lowering of the mast are really intimidating to lots of people and require a good bit of stength or rigging to deal with.

There is no harm in moving up in boat performance slowly...I would recomend a couple of moderate jumps upward... as opposed to an I20 when you have sailed P16'.!

Boardless boats that would suit are the N5.7, the Dart 20 and a G Cat 5.7.... In addition, these rigs are boomless which is another user friendly feature for family and friends. These boats are noticibly faster then your P16 and have about the same level of conrol lines.

It does not sound like you are looking for a huge performance increase... however, a step up from the boardless boats would be the P18-2 and Nacra 5.5sloop. Mystere 5.5. The first has a boom and kick up center boards... the second is boomless with dagger boards. .. I would make sure that you sailed the P19, N5.8 and Hobie 20 plus all of the 20 footers in a decent breeze before you purchsed one... the power in these boats could be a huge surpise and much more then you want to deal with.

I own a Dart 18 and a Tornado.... I sail the Dart solo, and with family and non sailing friends.... Its simple, boomless and fun and extemely versitile. The Tornado is lots of boat (Similar to Nacra 6.0's and I 20's in power) It is not as much fun unless you have another sailor with you who can sail the boat with you...

Check out Mark Michaleson's buyers guide for some good info about possible boats.

Have fun.

Mark

>>Would the P19 be closer to the P16 in terms of simplicity?

Not really. All of these boats were designed a race boats whiel boats like H16, P16 and P18 were more designed as fun boats. Although fun in the old days (70's) meant more performance than fun boats today (wave, getaway)

See my other post too.

Wouter

Wouter

I notice that people say alot of things. And I can't best rebut any statements in the following way.

If you think that P16 sails well (Pitchpoling ?) than you'll be happy with the P18 (similar or less pitchpoling than the P16)

About bouyancy in the hull, there are far more factors that determine picthpole characteristics. One of those factors is length : width ratio. Ofcourse the P16 and P18 are of equal width with the P18 being longer. Another factor is mastheight and sailarea and so on.

Simple looking at bow volume and saying "That'll Pitchpole like a Dolphin" is indicative of reduced understanding of catamaran design.

A little more info on the Prindles :

The Prindle family can be devided in two branches.

Branch 1 : P15 : P16; P18 : Escape

Branch 2 : P18-2 and P19

Both branches were designed in different periods (exception is Escape) Branch 1 is of 1974 to late 70's and branch 2 is from 1984 to late 80's

Branch 2 is noticable more race oriented and can be compared to Nacras and Hobie's of the same time frame (N5.5; N5,8 TheMightyHobie18, H20)

Branch 1 had as main competition the H16, Dart 18 and G-cats.

Branch 1 : is noticably simpler in design. but also far more robust and will resist abuse far better.

It is my personal opinion that Branch two is better suited to affordable recreational sailing. As many know I'm current upgrade to a High Performance race boat, but I have decided to keep my P16 (Just sold my P18) Why, because in 20 knots and more I just love sailing that craft solo or with a crew and I don't have to fear sandbars or landing back onto the beach with 15 knots of boat speed.

I also love it's simplicity, especially under heavy conditions. And it is a boat that I won't hesitate lending out to someone else.

So when you say :"I do like the P-16 a lot, so a P 18-2 or P 19 sounds pretty inviting.... "

My reaction would be :" If you like the P-16 alot than the P18 should be on top of the pretty inviting list"

I fact it is just a bigger P16 with some extra performance and extra weight carrying capacity.

With respect to being of equal performance upwind as a P16; That is not my experience although I can see that a P16 sailed at its optimal weight 135 kg's (300 lbs) and a P18 sailed at it's optimal weight of 160 Kg's (just over 350 lbs) would be more similar in speed. But ofcourse for crew of the same weight the P18 would be faster.

I've talked about the Prindles in specific by this does not mean that other boats suggested are attractive.

Wouter

I've been sailing a P18 for quite some time and have yet to ever come close to pitch poling. Even with the leeward bow underwater, she just kept on moving.

I own a Hobie 18 with an all-aluminum mast that I bought on Ebay for $750. It is bulletproof, sets up in 25 minutes from the trailer, there are all sorts of parts available for it, can be sailed solo or with three or four adults on it. It ain't real fast, but it seems like a tough combination of features to beat.
I have been racing as crew on a Prindle 18.2. That thing flies! However, it is really dellicate, it takes forever to set up and put away, and has a tendency to accelerate to really high speeds in little puffs. Most of the other "new tech" boats will have simmilar qualities. I can easily sail my TheMightyHobie18 up to a ramp full of PWC's and bass boats and not worry about killing anyone or cleaving anything in half! I can also dump it of the trailer onto a beach and not stress out about little pieces of gravel destroying the hulls. It is the Vovo Turbo station wagon of the catamaran world! The Hobie 18 is also non-threatening to the uninitiated cat sailor, so the kids and thier parents are happy too!

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your suggestion. A few questions - the G-Cat is no longer made, right? How hard is it to get parts? I don't see many of these advertised - do you?

Jonathan

Well, simple matters a lot. Easily maintainable matters a lot. Cheap matters within reason. For all these criteria, the Prindle 16 we have is pretty good. It may be slow with the two of us on it, but maybe that doesn't matter so much. It's hard to put our whole family on, or to put friends on, and that's more of an issue. So I am not completely certain whether we need to make a change at all, but I do want to explore the question. I think we'd be going a lot faster with a bigger boat, and since I would want a used boat, I would like to know what to keep my eyes open for, but there's no crying need to get it right away.

So I would basically like to sail a few different kinds of cats, keep my eyes open, and have some idea what I should be trying, with the option of buying something if it comes at a good price and looks like a decent step up.

If, for a little extra money, we can get something we can stick a few extra people on (we have three daughters), and that moves faster, that would be worth doing. But I don't want it to be a lot more fragile, and handling shallow water really matters a lot. I hear of people tearing up centerboards on sand bars, and I don't want that. If the boards kick up easily, that's fine.

We almost always trailer the boat, and I want to get in and out of the water quickly. Within reason, we can deal with a little more weight on either the boat or the mast, but if the boat is easy to handle on land, that offsets a little speed on the water.

High performance is a lot less important than stability and safety for us.

Thanks for the questions - it helps me be more specific!

Jonathan

Thanks - I'm pretty sure what I want is a "fun boat" as defined in the 1970s ;=>

Jonathan

I had a longish discussion about the various Prindle boats with a man from Performance Cat, and after listening and asking lots of questions, he made a bunch of suggestions that are starting to feel good to me. I'd like to hear feedback and pushback on this, though.

He suggested that I should really get comfortable sailing the boat I have in various conditions, and also get out there and sail lots of different kinds of boats before I buy another. He said I would definitely be better off with a bigger boat in the long run, but I might not know which one without more experience, and it would make more sense to learn to sail well on a Prindle 16 before moving up.

A few notes on specific boats. He said that the Prindle Escape is just a Prindle 18 with a Prindle 16 mast, primarily for rental, where you don't want too much power. He agreed with most of what Wouter said about the Prindle lines, but drew slightly different conclusions. He said that the 18-2 and 19 were just better made boats, and felt they were not really more fragile in the water, except for the daggerboards, which kick up but still might break under certain conditions. On the beach, he said you have to be more careful with them. In the water, he said they were not necessarily more complex, because you just don't use what you don't need. But I think it still might affect setup time quite a bit, right?

He also suggested that I should be less scared of racing - he said most racing is informal and social, that camping and barbecues are involved, and only the top 5 boats need to worry about who wins, so everyone else relaxes and tries to learn from each other.

To me, this sounds like good advice. What do you all think?

Jonathan

One idea no one else has forwarded that deserves consideration is to buy more small boats instead of one larger boat! A good first addition would be a Hobie Wave as it is ideal for teaching beginners and getting them comfortable sailing by themselves. You can get a good deal on a used one if you look around. Speaking from experience, it is much fun to have your own fleet of three Waves and go sailing all together on separate boats! You do not have to be on the same boat to have fun together - in fact you can have your own races if you have more boats. Instead of taking twenty minutes to rig, take five and go saiing for longer. Wave snobs do not know this but you still get the sensation of fast sailing - and I have sailed nearly everything. So at least consider this strategy. Someone will end up liking the Wave the best and someone else will like the Prindle the best but they will not be disappointed since you will have both! You can always crew for someone on a larger boat - there is much to be said for sailing OPBs, too! (Other People's Boats)

Mike Fahle Toledo

I see I made quite a few typo's in my post soory about that.

Ofcourse I meant that Branch 1 is better for recreational sailing.

Ahh well a boat is a boat and The difference between a P18 and P 18-2 is not that big. Although the second will always be more tender than the first (relatively speaking). Set up time, ah well, if you don't rig what you don't use than no boat takes alot of setup time.

Although if you don't have a big need for this go-fast-stuff and that go fast stuff than why have centreboards ?

Sure you can leave them off but that won't sail well right. And there is one other thing I like about the boardless P16 I still own over daggerboard cats. Boardless cats definately easier to get throught the surf. 5 inches of water under you hulls and you're off; with full control of steering. With raised daggerboards you have alot of sideways drift and such.

So I think the guy from PC isn't wrong, only that if you would ask me I would advice the P18 over say the P18-2 for the things you specified as important.

But if you want a more sexy boat with more cool stuff than the P18-2 and such is the boat for you.

One thing about more advanced boats, they are become more powerfull with size. Not something to really worry about but true just teh same.

About racing; Yes do it. Especially distance race can be enjoyable.

Wouter

the advice was

He suggested that I should really get comfortable sailing the boat I have in various conditions, and also get out there and sail lots of different kinds of boats before I buy another. He said I would definitely be better off with a bigger boat in the long run, but I might not know which one without more experience, and it would make more sense to learn to sail well on a Prindle 16 before moving up.

Absolutely.. You should be able to sail your P16 with crew in 20+ and have fun... It should not be a near death experience!

you recieved the following advice

conclusions. He said that the 18-2 and 19 were just better made boats, and felt they were not really more fragile in the water, except for the daggerboards, which kick up but still might break under certain conditions.

True... these are good tough boats... However... they don't deal with rocks well... they were not designed to sail way up the beach... You don't want to let them wallow in the surf line while you are eating lunch.

On the beach, he said you have to be more careful with them. In the water, he said they were not necessarily more complex, because you just don't use what you don't need.

But I think it still might affect setup time quite a bit, right?

Everything is bigger and heavier and more powerful. The boat still only has two sails... How its rigged goes a long way to determining setup time. You can make the boat very simple to rig if you would like. Lots of factors to consider.

A race is a collection of sailors who agree to go the same way at the same time.... Its a great way to see the other boats you might consider owning in the future... meet other people ... ask questions... almost everyone will be willing share helpful hints about cat sailing..

Sounds like very good advice

Take Care

Mark

A small fleet might be really fun - but each boat costs money and needs to be stored somewhere and towed. I don't think that works so well for us, especially the towing part.

If I could leave them in the water somewhere, I'd sure consider it!

Jonathan